A PIA Airbus airplane flying from Lahore to Karachi has crashed with 95 passengers onboard | Page 11 | World Defense

A PIA Airbus airplane flying from Lahore to Karachi has crashed with 95 passengers onboard

Khafee

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Within PIA, the largest number of hrs on an A320 was of the Captain, of the ill fated flt.

Right now, my heart goes out to his family, not only did they loose a loved one, but the blind speculation and despicable slander going on in the media.
 

Caprxl

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People on the internet are going nuts, blaming the Pilot mostly. But from what I have heard off the record, the aircraft was not fit to fly.

As far as I have seen Air Crash Investigations, in my opinion it is most of the time chain of individual events / mistakes that when connected one after an other, leads to the disaster. Could it be that Aircraft was not airworthy which Lead to Gear or what ever problem on 1st attempt at landing causing the Departed Pilot (may Allah have Mercy on his soul & others) to make mistake, who after all was a human & there is high probability of him not making the optimal decision.

But as you stated, I fear all the blame will be shifted on the poor Pilot while the real culprit, the system, the corrupt management, will escape again.
 

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As far as I have seen Air Crash Investigations, in my opinion it is most of the time chain of individual events / mistakes that when connected one after an other, leads to the disaster. Could it be that Aircraft was not airworthy which Lead to Gear or what ever problem on 1st attempt at landing causing the Departed Pilot (may Allah have Mercy on his soul & others) to make mistake, who after all was a human & there is high probability of him not making the optimal decision.

But as you stated, I fear all the blame will be shifted on the poor Pilot while the real culprit, the system, the corrupt management, will escape again.
It is always easy to blame the defenseless.
 

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I have a long video ... I am sorry but stoll
Don’t get it..// what will PIA get out of creating these marks . Here is the private video :
 

Zeeman

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from my pilot friend :

His error , he should have come in for an visual approach than an ils ( where he fucked up in the first place ) , and he forgot to lower the gears in this fiasco

His error , he should have come in for an visual approach than an ils ( where he fucked up in the first place ) , and he forgot to lower the gears in this fiasco

Same like Emirates in Dubai
 

Zeeman

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Ask any commercial pilot, under minimum ft , you don’t go around ...u just don’t ....you even announce in the cockpit minimums

Worst in a belly landing, was lower chances of loss of life
 

Zeeman

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I am unable to download from WhatsApp.... I have a clear king video of the runway and 20 page analysis ..


GRIEVOUS CRASH OF PK 8303
A breaking news rocked the whole Pakistan on 22nd May 2020 when an airbus 320 of PIA flight PK 8303 carrying 98 souls on board crashed just short of landing killing almost all but few .This crash happened just when PIA was getting out of billions of losses and started to take off again to achieve its past glory . Words cannot describe the sorrow of all the lost souls and their family’s suffering for times to come . May Allah bless all the departed souls . AMEEN . The initial report was released by the PIA which was covered by all the media in the evening and CEO PIA showed compassion and resolve to bring out the facts as early as he can to the public at large . He also showed his impartiality by stepping aside from the enquiry part and requested government to form a neutral committee under PM and aviation divisions Which consists of experts from Safety investigation board . Probably this is the first time ever in the history where no one from PIA or PCAA is a part of any investigation of PIA accident . Some facts of the unfortunate crash are described below .
HOT AND HIGH APPROACH
As per the data released officially upto now , it is very evident that the pilots were coming in above the approved procedures for speed and height . The voice communication between pilots and ATC controller also revealed that controller instructed the pilots to turn left heading 180 as he believed the aircraft was way above the recommended height and its speed was too high for landing but the pilot insisted that he is “COMFORTABLE “ and continued again beside being reminded twice by the ATC controller . This officially released airspeed data from flight radar 24 site reveals that the aircraft was very high on approach . The steep descending line shows that the pilot was descending very fast specially when it was at 10,000 feet


This graph depicts that ill fated aircraft made a touch down on the runway without landing gears down as depicted in red circle and then it started to climb to 3000 after touch down ,unfortunately the touch down occurred on engines as per the PCAA inspection report which says
CAA Runway Inspection report:
"No belly touch only both engines touched alternately on runway followed by a go around
The scratch marks suggest 1st touch with left engine at 4500 ft down, followed by both engines touch 5500 ft down then alternative touches more thicker ones from 6000 to 7000 ft then only right engine touch with left off till last 1500 ft where it gets airborne for a visual closed landing"
This report confirms that aircraft touched down on runway without landing gears and speed was very high also . As ideally an aircraft should touch down by 1500 feet down the runway if the speed is as per defined procedure but here first engine impact is at 4500 feet down the runway . The follows sketch depicts that only if the landing gears are not down the aircraft will hit the engines and not the belly .

There is a clearance of approx 1 meter of engines of an airbus 320 from ground , so if landing gears are down there is no way engines can hit the runway. Once gears are retracted only then engines will touch the ground . So at least this thing is sure that aircrfat gears were not lowered ( intentionally or any malfunction) yet to be determined . Another data shown below also reveals that the aircraft came down very low and then again climbed

If there would have been any problem due landing gears the pilot must have announced it on RT but the RT calls so far doesn’t provide any data of landing gear malfunction. The picture taken just after first go around also depicts that there is a whole black burning marks under the engine skin which reveal that due to friction both engine were damaged and caught fire and sparks when being dragged on runway .
A normal engine
view from the bottom is shown in the bottom figure

This reveals that after go around engines of ill fated flights 8303 were badly damaged and were just waiting for their last breaths . Airbus 320 so far has proven its worth in the aviation industry as one of the safest plane to fly as it has the best record of safety upto now .
There are also confirmed reports by the eye witness specially the young survivors whos interviews reveal that the aircraft touched down on the ground three times before getting airborne again . The video is attached as a proof with this document .
POST GO AROUND
After the first go around the aircraft climbed with both damaged engines which were taking their last breaths already but still managed to help aircraft to climb back to 3000 feet, the communique between pilot and controller reveals that the aircraft climbed to 3000 feet and then was trying to attempt another landing by going back from the starting point as per prescribed procedure of missed approach but just when the pilot realised that they are not able to maintain 3000 feet of altitude and are descending down , the controller also informed the pilot that he is loosing altitude to whixh captain replied that he will maintain 2000 and trying to maintain 2000 feet , however when the aircraft engines were lost completely he decided to turn immediately and land back by gliding the aircraft on runway and also lowered the gears as the following picture reveals that aircraft gears were down and locked but due to no engine thrust the aircraft continued to loose altitude and in the end just fell down on the ground . There are speculations that after go around the aircraft got struck with birds and both engines flamed out , but there was no RT call to controller regarding bird hit and engine flameout due birds . In the movie SULLY when the captain encounters double engine flameout , he encountered at least huge flocks of birds and even the investigation reveals that such black marks were not seen below the engine cowlings .

Approximate flight path of ill fated flight 8303 , after going round made an attempt to land but due to loss of engines could not maintain altitude and went down just short of runway .
The following pictures reveals that the aircraft was at very high Angle of attack and trying to sustain flight but eventually with no thrust the

aircrfat couldn’t glide even as landing gears were down and drag was increased, so when there was no thrust to sustain the flight the aircraft crashed . Speculations about Hitting building and High tension wires is of no significance here as once the engines are not working , then it doesn’t matter it’s a high rise building ahead or a plane ground or even mountains , aircraft cannot sustain flight and eventually falls on the ground .

These pictures clearly show that the aircraft was very low and due to lack of engine thrust stalled and pilot could not control the impact of aircraft.
RECENT HIGH SPEED INCIDENTS IN PIA PANJGUR
First incident of runway excursion took place recently on 10th November 2018 when Flight PK 517 from Karachi to panjgur ended up in the same situation of high speed landing and high approach which resulted in aircraft skidding off the runway and stopped in over run of the runway . The following picture dictates that the aircraft landed almost in the center of runway instead of beginning of the runway , and due to high speed landing aircraft was not able to stop within the remaining length of the runway , however initially all the hue and cry was made on the part of maintenance just like this airbus 320 crash but later the facts revealed that the incident took place due to the pilot error . Although no life was lost and the aircraft also recovered to fly again but the aim to highlight this incident is the flaws in the PIA training system of pilots . It is indeed a fact that PIA once had one of the best training systems in the aviation sector however with the passage of time and political interferences , compromises on induction standards and safety standards have led to a tendency of casual attitudes towards flying profession. PALPAs interference in flight operations as a parallel management has led to such disasters . As there is a major conflict of interest in pia training which needs to be

rectified to avoid future accidents and loss of lives . ATR landed High and Hot in Panjgur and overshot the runway. Nothing could be done to the pilot since PALPA backed him and influenced the investigation.
FDA record of the Captain as regards his habit patterns during landings was not evaluated, and he retained his command.

GILGIT
Another unfortunate incident occurred on 20th July 2019 when flight PK 605 made a high speed touch down was made in the center of runway and the aircraft went off the runway and stopped near the boundary wall of airport . This crash resulted in total write off of ATR 42

causing a huge loss to Pakistan and PIA . The enquiry conducted blamed the captain of aircraft and the penalty she got was a demotion only for one year . Now after one year she will again start flying on a more advanced aircraft which is airbus 320 , so in future such incidents will continue to happen unless the training of pia pilots is put under scrutiny.. FDA analysis of Captain’s approaches revealed that she is habitual of coming in High and Hot as a matter of routine, but before any corrective action could be taken, the aircraft was destroyed. Even now PALPA insisting that she should be given a command on 320 .
KHATMANDU CRASH
PAKISTAN International Airlines Flight 268 was an Airbus A300, registration AP-BCP, which crashed on approach to Kathmandu's Tribhuvan International Airport on 28 September 1992. All 167 people on board were killed. It is the deadliest aviation crash to occur on Nepalese soil. The aircraft investigation revealed that it was a minor pilot error where the crew misread the approach plate while landing in mountainous terrain and it resulted in a deadly crash of the aircraft

PALPA THE BIGGEST HURDLE IN PROFESSIONALISM OF PIA PILOTS
In April 2020 , the working agreement was DE RECOGNISED and Essential services act was extended by the current management . Speculations about pilots being forced to fly under ESA are totally absurd as under no law of international organisations and Pakistan any pilot can be forced to fly , a captain can always refuse a flight if he seems that aircraft is not fly worthy . As per the mandate claimed by PALPA which ensures the safety of passengers and flight , there are all the more reasons for PALPA pilots to refuse the flights if they consider it any safety issue in the aircraft. .
As per the working agreement of PALPA and PIACL which was signed in 2011 , the following clause 1.2 dictates a major flaw in PIA pilots training .in the recognition clause , para 2 states that all the training of pilots will only be done by the PALPA pilots which is a grave conflict of interest .
No such practice is followed in any airline in the world . In all private airlines and foreign airlines all the training of pilots is conducted by the respective pilots who are management pilots of the airline but the final clearance checks are done by the qualified CIVil aviation approved instructors , who have the mandate to examine a pilot on the basis of his/her performance on merit and no personal interests are involved. Some airlines even go for wet lease assessments in which a foreign qualified instructor on simulator assess the training of pilots.
This clause gives an immense power to the PALPA instructors in PIA and due to the fear of failures and loss of licenses , no pilot can ever

challenge the instructors authority, the recent crash of pia where 97 people lost their lives is the most current example which depicts the training flaws in pilots training . As per international standard practices first officer can always guide the captain even in the event of some deviation from standard operating procedures , but in this event there is a chain of events which apparently due to the evidence available reveals that multiple violations were done by the operating pilot and since first officer was junior and did not have courage to challenge a captains decisions .
This is the time when all the PIA pilots training needs to be scrutinised and a third party audit of all the training systems in place should be conducted . FDA programme needs to be thought audited in order to avoid such fatal incidents in future . Corporate Safety department of PIA has a Flight Data Analysis (FDA) program. Any deviation from normal approach and landing parameters are automatically recorded, brought to the attention of management, and corrective actions are to be taken before any mishap occurs due to these negative trends. CAA is tasked to monitor the FDA program and its implementation. PIA Safety cannot take any action against adverse practices of pilots since the top people in the department are themselves members of PALPA. CAA has never monitored PIA’s FDA program and its utility.
PALPA management pilots are elected by the member pilots and if someone wants to keep its position then it’s very obvious that no elected pilot will ever go against his voter , otherwise he will loose his vote , and on the other hand the member pilots would always Elect such pilots who can look after their interests and will save them from problems and failures . So basically this whole system of PALPA as a parallel management is the biggest hurdle in training of pilots . Had PIA pilots been assessed by third party pilots instructors on merit then for sure they training and knowledge standards would have been very high . Many first officers of pia don’t make it up-to captain as they are unable to clear the written examinations of ATPL license which is a pre requisite to become a captain . Instead they resolved to unfair means and recently a High level enquiry revealed their misappropriation in ATPL examinations , thus resulting in cancellation of fake licenses. Such practices speaks volumes of their professionalism. The following letter issued by the management indicates the professionalism of pilots . If pilots are unable to clear the examinations of ATPL then it

raises a lot of questions in the pilots induction till training system being followed in pia .
In the history of Pakistan aviation there had been number of crashes , however it is revealed that no one ever asked for resignation of a ceo but here in pia there is always some political motive behind

everything. Airblue airbus 320 crashed in Margalla hills and it was again a pilot error , bhoja aircrfat crashed while landing in bad weather at Islamabad airport , but no one asked for the resignation of From respective CEOs . As without any enquiry outcome how can anyone ask for resignation of a CEO .
More pertaining and grave points in PALPA interference are described below
TRAINING, SAFETY, and PALPA
➢ Through the Working Agreement, PALPA has influence over all aspects of Pilots’ Training ( Article-4 of Agreement) and also influences all investigations/inquiries pertaining to professional lapses ( Article- 12).
➢ The undue protection provided to pilots by PALPA has given rise to complacency, indiscipline, and blatant violation of company’s SOPs provided to all pilots and which are to be adhered strictly.
➢ On B-777 there have been several cases of runway incursions, going into kutcha, and other such incidents. But management was bound to include PALPA officers in inquiries and therefore they ensured that pilots get away without any corrective action.
➢ A B-777 lost radio contact in European airspace because pilots went to sleep and fighters were sent to the aircraft. Nothing could be done against the pilots for this lapse because PALPA backing them and influencing investigation and its outcome.
➢ Against the regulations, pilots Fast and operate flights in the month of Ramadan. Management cannot enforce the law, which is enforced even in Islamic countries, not to fly if Fasting. Open ended loose instructions are issued before Ramadan every year to complete regulatory requirements only and it has never been imposed in letter and spirit.
➢ PALPA insists on being a part of every investigation. Aircraft accident investigation is conducted by highly qualified and trained investigators. No PALPA officer or member either has a single qualification in neither accident investigation nor any professional

experience in this regard. A normal pilot needs education and training to do this. They only participate in investigations and inquiries to ensure that nothing happens to the pilot and no responsibility is affixed on the pilot. It has therefore never been fixed.
➢ Latest fatal A-320 crash responsibility is also being fixed on the anguish due to ESA. Did all previous incidents/accidents happen due to ESA?. If pilot of ill fated flight had any anxiety then he should not have operated the flight, which was his Privilege as written on his License. Threats of ESA or management is a lame excuse because even management cannot take away his privilege granted on his License.
➢ Accusations of nepotism and induction of pilots of present/ex- employees does not hold ground. All pilots involved in Gilgit, European airspace, and other such incidents were all Regular pilots, PALPA members,
and did not have any relative in PIA. The Selection procedure of pilots is absolutely transparent and based solely on merit. Many children of serving and retired pilots of PIA did not qualify for induction in the last batch recruited and were disqualified. It was possible only because PALPA is not involved in the Recruitment process at least. After induction, all regular pilots get the shelter of PALPA and become almost un accountable for their professional or administrative lapses. As a remedy, management now inducts pilots on Contract basis so that they can be held accountable for their professional/administrative lapses and misconduct.
Without any qualification, training, or experience, PALPA insists on participating in all investigations and inquiries just to interfere in the management and providing cover to its member pilots. It has given rise to complacency, arrogance, indiscipline, and incentive to violate all company rules and SOPs approved by CAA for the safe operation of aircraft.
Basic factors affecting Training and adherence to Safety procedures are:
a) Pilot jobs are permanent in PIA , unlike other airlines, and once made permanent the management gets restricted by the working agreement to supervise or have control over the conduct of pilots. Both, professionally and administratively. Induction of pilots on contract has been stopped by the honorable Supreme Court for the

time being, but it is necessary to ensure safe flying practices by pilots since their jobs and flying habits would become accountable.
b) All regular pilots pay PALPA to become a member so that under their patronage all indiscipline is covered and a safety net is erected. PALPA is involved in promotions, trainings, other assignments of pilots like deputation etc, and also ensures that all their actions are un accountable because PALPA is there in all investigations and inquiries. c) The top notch in Corporate Safety Department are also PALPA members. In other airlines of Pakistan, Safety Departments are headed by Safety professionals only and they are not engaged in normal routine flying duties. PIA needs to engage a person who is not a PALPA member to head its Safety department so that unbiased and independent assessments and reports can be made.
d) Unlike any other organization in the world, in PIA unions and associations have a major role in deciding the management of their choice. Past several strikes / litigations were against the managements who refused to succumb to their style of working independently and as they please. Not a single strike/go slow/ litigation was actually for Safety concerns, but were rather to force the Govt. to do away with Chief Executive/ Management which was not of their liking ( Junaid Younus, Ejaz Haroon, Musharraf Rasool, Saigol, Nasir Jaffer etc. , and now AM Arshad Malik).
e) Not a single Safety related Article has been published by PALPA, nor has there ever been a recognised Safety Seminar in PALPA. They use the word SAFETY whenever they want to create disruption in airline operations. Whatever FDTL issues are raised, they subside when management accepts their monetary demands.
f) PALPA has never insisted on the management, nor made arrangements on its own, to send their members to attend Safety Courses and Seminars conducted by professional individuals/organisations. Therefore, the only people who have this exposure are the pilots whom management wanted to utilise in Safety. So it has always been the management who is concerned about Safety and not PALPA. Their concerns are limited to lip service only and to extort more benefits in the garb of Safety.
g) The AVIATION MANAGEMENT SCHOOL established by PALPA , and a board put outside the building to deceive Government agencies, remains restricted to the Board only. There has never been such an Institute in the building. Neither is there a Library on Aviation related and Safety subjects. PALPA has not subscribed to any Periodicals / Journals on Safety and has never invited a professional

Safety expert as a guest speaker to address and educate its members. All the funds are utilised in litigations against the management only; either to oust them through courts or to protect pilots in case there is a professional or administrative issue. List of cases filed by PALPA and individual pilots supported by PALPA will testify the point.
INTERFERENCE
ARTICLE – 4
4.1: PALPA’s nod required by the management for training policies and programs it would decide for pilots hired by PIA. Total control. 4.5: Association has to be informed in case some unforeseen hiccup in training.
4.6.2: 14 days notice for training can only be reduced with the approval of palpa. It has been used to hamper training in case management not able to give 14 days notice due compelling external circumstances. This affects PIA financially as the foreign simulator training is dependent on 3rd party approval and slot allocations for training abroad. If a slot is missed it causes a financial loss to PIA as payments are always made in advance.
4.8: Association has right to access personal training files (confidential) of pilots.This clause gives access to blackmail their own pilots on their performance .
4.11 (4) (5): PALPA involvement in Evaluation Board for promotions. This is again a clause which is used to blackmail pilots into submitting before PALPA. As if any pilot who disobeys PALPA will have sever repercussions on his promotion as without PALPA consent no pilot can be promoted. In other airlines it’s the management pilots who evaluate on merit but in PIA without PALPAs approval no promotion is done. 4.12 : Selection and training of instructors to be in consultation with PALPA whereas in all other airlines of the world it is management job and prerogative.
4.13: Different flying Courses to be planned in consultation with PALPA
ARTICLE-12
12.1.7(a): several times flouted by palpa itself
12.2.1.: PALPA involved in investigations whereas they do not have a single person qualified in investigations/inquiries
12.2.1.5.2 - 7: Involvement in inquiry
12.2.2.2: Involvement in inquiry on misconduct

12.4.1: Never followed
CONCLUSION / RECOMMENDATIONS
MAJOR conclusion is to put PALPA involvement in everything related to pilot in the name of safety is a big hoax , and PALPA needs to be held accountable after scrutiny and deep cleansing of PIA training system and implementation of OM-D ( training manual ) . Also all pia pilots must be put through a third party audit to determine the professionalism bench marks defined internationally and the recurrent training of all pilots must be carried out by Emirates , Etihad and Qatar ATO ( approved training organisations ) instead of being assessed by PALPA pilots . This crash has pointed out a number of fingers world wide and tremendous loss of life , so to access the professionalism of PIA pilots is a must
 

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Khafee

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from my pilot friend :

His error , he should have come in for an visual approach than an ils ( where he fucked up in the first place ) , and he forgot to lower the gears in this fiasco

His error , he should have come in for an visual approach than an ils ( where he fucked up in the first place ) , and he forgot to lower the gears in this fiasco

Same like Emirates in Dubai

As per the final report issued in Feb this year EK-521 was a different issue - Wind Shear & Thermals. It was not related to MLG failure like so many people are claiming, for some odd reason.
 

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Just look at where the initial touch down was ... look at the final moments pictures and landing gear is perfectly deployed .....

to me it seems like a slam dunk pilot error ...
 

Khafee

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Just look at where the initial touch down was ... look at the final moments pictures and landing gear is perfectly deployed .....

to me it seems like a slam dunk pilot error ...
You just broke my heart ?
 
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