Modi's Dislike For Nehru Cannot Obliterate The Facts

Joe Shearer

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#16
Jinnah had a clear vision and goal in his mind ....... he knew what he was working for.

I don't agree with Secular as well Mullahs ........... both have confused Jinnah like Islam they practice.

His deteriorating health condition and changing attire with changing times and situation .......... all those photographs of him when looked upon in sequence ........ make it clear what he with others wanted in shape of Pakistan.
I cannot agree that his change to native attire signified any change in his outlook, that he had developed through the early years in Britain as a student, an amateur actor and a budding barrister 'eating his dinners' at the Inns of Court. It sounds tempting, but on the contrary, I believe that through his nativist attire, he was deliberately presenting himself as a beacon, or a rallying point, for four and a half diverse provinces or subdivisions with no links between them. It did not reflect any inner change, in my personal opinion.
 

Joe Shearer

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#17
Jinnah had a clear vision and goal in his mind ....... he knew what he was working for.

I don't agree with Secular as well Mullahs ........... both have confused Jinnah like Islam they practice.

His deteriorating health condition and changing attire with changing times and situation .......... all those photographs of him when looked upon in sequence ........ make it clear what he with others wanted in shape of Pakistan.
Further, considering the number of times that he had to modify his aims in order to meet his underlying objective of protection and some degree of equality for Muslims, it is difficult to maintain that he had a singular goal and worked with tunnel vision towards it.

On the contrary, the Jinnah of 1920 was not the Jinnah of the 1928 Round Table Conference, who was not the Jinnah who walked away from the whole mess in 1930, who was, in turn, hugely different from the Jinnah who finally accepted the brief of the Muslim League in 1934. There were further, visible changes in his line, right up to 1946.
 

Joe Shearer

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#18
Jinnah had a clear vision and goal in his mind ....... he knew what he was working for.

I don't agree with Secular as well Mullahs ........... both have confused Jinnah like Islam they practice.

His deteriorating health condition and changing attire with changing times and situation .......... all those photographs of him when looked upon in sequence ........ make it clear what he with others wanted in shape of Pakistan.
In fact, even after the debacle of the Cabinet Mission Plan that he had agreed to in 1946, after which he completely focussed on Pakistan, there was yet another occasion, two occasions, actually, when he was called upon to accept clumsy compromises.

One was in accepting partition of the provinces of Punjab and Bengal.

The second was in his response on being confronted by the ditzy Bengali combine of Hassan Shaheed Suhrawardy, Sarat Chandra Bose (the grandfather of the notoriously contrarian three historians from India, Sugato Bose, Sharmila Bose and Sumantra Bose) and Kiran Shankar Roy, who wanted a totally independent Bengal. Jinnah accepted this, but Nehru and Patel did not, under pressure from the Hindu upper and middle classes. The plan foundered, and Bengal, too, was partitioned.
 
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In fact, even after the debacle of the Cabinet Mission Plan that he had agreed to in 1946, after which he completely focussed on Pakistan, there was yet another occasion, two occasions, actually, when he was called upon to accept clumsy compromises.

One was in accepting partition of the provinces of Punjab and Bengal.

The second was in his response on being confronted by the ditzy Bengali combine of Hassan Shaheed Suhrawardy, Sarat Chandra Bose (the grandfather of the notoriously contrarian three historians from India, Sugato Bose, Sharmila Bose and Sumantra Bose) and Kiran Shankar Roy, who wanted a totally independent Bengal. Jinnah accepted this, but Nehru and Patel did not, under pressure from the Hindu upper and middle classes. The plan foundered, and Bengal, too, was partitioned.
To add that in his conversation with Mountbatten as recorded Jinnah demanded much more initially whole of Bengal and Punjab "you must give me a viable Pakistan. You must give me the whole of Punjab as well as Sindh and NWFP and Bengal and Assam, and I shall want a corridor to unite them."

Quoted from:
Mountbatten and the Partition of India, Volume 1 : March 22-August 15, 1947, Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre, Vikas Publishing House, New Delhi, 1982.
 

Joe Shearer

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To add that in his conversation with Mountbatten as recorded Jinnah demanded much more initially whole of Bengal and Punjab "you must give me a viable Pakistan. You must give me the whole of Punjab as well as Sindh and NWFP and Bengal and Assam, and I shall want a corridor to unite them."

Quoted from:
Mountbatten and the Partition of India, Volume 1 : March 22-August 15, 1947, Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre, Vikas Publishing House, New Delhi, 1982.
Yes, good point. Although, mind you, Collins and Lapierre wrote a dangerously Indo-centric book. I am a little bit away from their account these days.
 

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I cannot agree that his change to native attire signified any change in his outlook, that he had developed through the early years in Britain as a student, an amateur actor and a budding barrister 'eating his dinners' at the Inns of Court. It sounds tempting, but on the contrary, I believe that through his nativist attire, he was deliberately presenting himself as a beacon, or a rallying point, for four and a half diverse provinces or subdivisions with no links between them. It did not reflect any inner change, in my personal opinion.
On the contrary, the Jinnah of 1920 was not the Jinnah of the 1928 Round Table Conference, who was not the Jinnah who walked away from the whole mess in 1930, who was, in turn, hugely different from the Jinnah who finally accepted the brief of the Muslim League in 1934. There were further, visible changes in his line, right up to 1946.
1518579032736.png



Sir a person like Jinnah can only be convinced and not made to change his outlook, just to impress others and look more pious. I am not an expert on Subcontinent's recent history but what I have understood of Iqbal and Jinnah ....... is both of these gentlemen started different and ended totally different as far as their thoughts, beliefs and aims are concerned. In between they have gone through a lot of changes in their thoughts, beliefs and goals. The changes are more sudden and visible in Iqbal's case, reason him being the poet, one can clearly see he starts a sufi believing in mysticism, he is nationalist (saray jahan say acha Hindustan hamara), then he is a supporter of Ummah (Aik ho Muslim Haram ki pasbani k liay), then he is a totally changed person a student of Quran with deep understanding of Quran and skill to convey Quran's message through his poetry ..... he becomes an international poet.

Jinnah on the other hand doesn't appear to have gone through radical sudden changes ........ he is young, handsome Western looking stylish barrister, keeps a totally different outlook through out, even when his peers are looking more and more genuine Hindustanis, Jinnah seems to be totally indifferent to the idea that he should change his attire to appeal people or look more closer to them, and then the period you mentioned he comes to accept something unique, something convincing, something undeniable, something that appeals him, something that motivates him ............. I don't think Jinnah would have changed his personal beliefs and attire just for the sake of it .......... In my opinion He was the man who needed to be convinced and impressed ....... he won't just change.
 

Joe Shearer

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View attachment 5578


Sir a person like Jinnah can only be convinced and not made to change his outlook, just to impress others and look more pious. I am not an expert on Subcontinent's recent history but what I have understood of Iqbal and Jinnah ....... is both of these gentlemen started different and ended totally different as far as their thoughts, beliefs and aims are concerned. In between they have gone through a lot of changes in their thoughts, beliefs and goals. The changes are more sudden and visible in Iqbal's case, reason him being the poet, one can clearly see he starts a sufi believing in mysticism, he is nationalist (saray jahan say acha Hindustan hamara), then he is a supporter of Ummah (Aik ho Muslim Haram ki pasbani k liay), then he is a totally changed person a student of Quran with deep understanding of Quran and skill to convey Quran's message through his poetry ..... he becomes an international poet.

Jinnah on the other hand doesn't appear to have gone through radical sudden changes ........ he is young, handsome Western looking stylish barrister, keeps a totally different outlook through out, even when his peers are looking more and more genuine Hindustanis, Jinnah seems to be totally indifferent to the idea that he should change his attire to appeal people or look more closer to them, and then the period you mentioned he comes to accept something unique, something convincing, something undeniable, something that appeals him, something that motivates him ............. I don't think Jinnah would have changed his personal beliefs and attire just for the sake of it .......... In my opinion He was the man who needed to be convinced and impressed ....... he won't just change.
Yes, yes, yes...how I wish SoulSpokesman were here! I haven't put it very well, so let me elaborate. Jinnah could not be 'turned'; I did not mean 'changed' in that sense, but he could take up a cause, a worthy cause, and fight for it with zeal. He defended the assassin Ilm-ud-din (at the personal request of Allama Iqbal), he defended his rival in the Congress (the old, pre-Gandhi Congress), Tilak, one of the Extremists, opposed to Jinnah and the Moderates, and I believe that he defended the Muslim community when he thought that it needed defending.

I also think that his advocacy of the Muslim cause was a logical outcome of his observation of the constitutional efforts of the British to achieve the same aims, and their successive failures (in my earlier note I had mentioned the progressive steps, the reservation of seats, and then the reservation of portions of the administration itself). To me, his proposals were a very logical extension of the earlier failed attempts to a higher pitch and based on a qualitatively different and deeper foundation.

I think he changed in the sense that his priorities changed. He turned his extraordinary talent to a task that more and more pressed on his consciousness as one that needed doing, and one that only he could do. He was, if you like, convinced and impressed.
 

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Yes, yes, yes...how I wish SoulSpokesman were here! I haven't put it very well, so let me elaborate. Jinnah could not be 'turned'; I did not mean 'changed' in that sense, but he could take up a cause, a worthy cause, and fight for it with zeal. He defended the assassin Ilm-ud-din (at the personal request of Allama Iqbal), he defended his rival in the Congress (the old, pre-Gandhi Congress), Tilak, one of the Extremists, opposed to Jinnah and the Moderates, and I believe that he defended the Muslim community when he thought that it needed defending.

I also think that his advocacy of the Muslim cause was a logical outcome of his observation of the constitutional efforts of the British to achieve the same aims, and their successive failures (in my earlier note I had mentioned the progressive steps, the reservation of seats, and then the reservation of portions of the administration itself). To me, his proposals were a very logical extension of the earlier failed attempts to a higher pitch and based on a qualitatively different and deeper foundation.

I think he changed in the sense that his priorities changed. He turned his extraordinary talent to a task that more and more pressed on his consciousness as one that needed doing, and one that only he could do. He was, if you like, convinced and impressed.

Sir all that while keeping in view that he was principled, truthful, disciplined, honest and a thinker ........ his selection of the causes he defended and fought for couldn't have differences with his personal traits, I don't think the man would have become part of something that didn't appeal his inner self. It is a proven fact now that he didn't benefit anything personally from creation of Pakistan and partition, the man was at his last stages of his illness, I don't think he didn't know of his medical condition.
 

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Sir all that while keeping in view that he was principled, truthful, disciplined, honest and a thinker ........ his selection of the causes he defended and fought for couldn't have differences with his personal traits,
Where did I say that he defended causes that were repugnant to him?

On the other hand, an advocate does not get emotionally involved with his pleas.

I don't think the man would have become part of something that didn't appeal his inner self. It is a proven fact now that he didn't benefit anything personally from creation of Pakistan and partition, the man was at his last stages of his illness, I don't think he didn't know of his medical condition.
Sure, he did it out of a sense of duty. He was a political person throughout; his long association with the Bombay politicians of the day, including Dadabhai Naoroji and Phirozeshah Mehta, not to mention Gokhale. Was he emotionally aligned to Parsis or Hindus? No, he was aligned to the politics that they represented. And there is nothing in his selfless behaviour - his refusal to draw more than a rupee a year as Governor General of Pakistan - to say that he was emotionally involved with the concept.

He fought a case that he selected because he thought it needed to be fought; because the Muslim League made him President for Life; because the leadership other than himself came to him and begged him to take up the cause.
 

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Where did I say that he defended causes that were repugnant to him?
Not you sir ........... for the readers.

He fought a case that he selected because he thought it needed to be fought; because the Muslim League made him President for Life; because the leadership other than himself came to him and begged him to take up the cause.
Suppose sir, an imaginary scenario ........ what if the British wanted to postpone and drag the partition for another year or two? How Jinnah would have reacted to that?
 

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Not you sir ........... for the readers.



Suppose sir, an imaginary scenario ........ what if the British wanted to postpone and drag the partition for another year or two? How Jinnah would have reacted to that?
A VERY difficult question.
  1. He knew he was dying. I understand that his doctors had told him, and he knew he was racing against time. He could not wait (he finally died 1 year and 1 month after Independence).
  2. He would have wanted a quick end to the thing. He had no illusions about the quality of his colleagues, he had run the Muslim League entirely by himself, and he knew that he would have to build an institutional leadership for the country. He failed, but he was not to know that, but his actions show clearly that he was determined to give it his best shot. Actually, Jinnah never thought in indeterminate categories; he would have been determined to achieve his goals, not to give it his best shot.
  3. On the other hand, his strategic position was precarious. Press too hard, the Congress, his rivals, would extract a stiff price, a price that would ultimately come out of the package that he wanted for the Muslim homeland. Left too easy, they might undermine his position with the Muslims of India. Until 1946, the Punjab was against the League, the Sindh was against the League, there was never any thought of Balochistan belonging to the new Dominion, and NWFP was positively hostile; it was only the abstention of the Khudai Khidmatgars that allowed the referendum in that province to get in 50.1% FOR Pakistan. So he had to walk a tight-rope; he had to keep up the pressure, but not too much, not to the extent that the British would get fed up (they did get fed up) and walk away, and not too little, since there had to be enough momentum in the efforts of the League to retain the imagination of the Muslim elements who supported the League.
  4. I believe that he would have reminded the Congress that they all wanted Independence, that Gandhi was aging as fast as he, and that so, too, were Nehru and Patel. I believe that he would have let them set the pace and waited to ensure that he and his clients would get absolutely the best deal that they could in the circumstances.