PAF gears up to develop 5th-generation fighter jet

[Khafee]

Vipers are a special case. We have the Block-72's engine and airframe infrastructure already, and the Block-72 costs the least of all of the options.

Yes, a $6 billion US program to buy 36 Block-72s and upgrade our existing F-16s to F-16V standards would take money away from Proj. Azm, but the net-benefit is adding 100+ AESA radar-equipped jets -- that's an OK trade-off.

But spending $3-4 b on 30-40 Su-35s or 18-24 Typhoon T3s isn't a good trade-off for delaying Project Azm. If those are the only options, then the PAF will eat grass and work on Project Azm.

As for the Chinese, if low cost enough, we can look at leasing their Flanker derivatives if the option is available. But we won't keep them when we have our own twin-engine jet in the works.

Su-35 &Typhoon - Are out. PAF has closed this chapter

J-15 - Not sure how the funding will go, for now. But I believe it will be heavily subsidized.

 

[TomCat]

Su-35 &Typhoon - Are out. PAF has closed this chapter

J-15 - Not sure how the funding will go, for now. But I believe it will be heavily subsidized.

so no eft now

 

[Khafee]

so no eft now
View attachment 10843

Yes.

 

[Falcon29]

Any new news on this? You guys think Pakistan-Indonesia-Malaysia-Turkey could team up on such a project?

 

[TomCat]

Any new news on this? You guys think Pakistan-Indonesia-Malaysia-Turkey could team up on such a project?

We want to make a fighter jet, not an ummah jet

 

[TomCat]

Turkey, could be a help, indonesia? What have they got to offer? Similarly malaysia?

 

[Falcon29]

We want to make a fighter jet, not an ummah jet

Lol, I know, but isn't Turkey advancing such a project too? Although there have been recent complications for the project due to Turkish-EU disputes. So can't Turkey and Pakistan cooperate? As for Indonesia and Malaysia, I have been seeing news of military cooperation between you guys and thought you guys could cooperate on research too.

 

[IbnAbdullah]

Salaam

Lol, I know, but isn't Turkey advancing such a project too? Although there have been recent complications for the project due to Turkish-EU disputes. So can't Turkey and Pakistan cooperate? As for Indonesia and Malaysia, I have been seeing news of military cooperation between you guys and thought you guys could cooperate on research too.

I agree. As much as some people here dislike the Idea of cooperation between 'brotherly' nations it is certainly not a bad idea. There is strength in numbers.

If states can find allies in the geography (EU) which is incidental and still be successful, than I don't see anything mockworthy in states trying to find allies in people they share religious beliefs with.

The only potential issue - regardless of how improbable - I see the issue between Turkey and China. It seems very likely that Pakistan is going seek and likely receive a lot of help from China, and the Chinese may - and it seems unlikely but not impossible - not be happy about the Turks joining in.

However, I do think that is a very unlikely thing and most likely as both countries make progress on this front I do see a lot of cooperation happening on these and other defence related projects as was indicated by Erdogan and Mahatir Mohammad recently where they mentioned defence cooperation between Turkey, Malaysia and Pakistan (even though Pakistan wasn't represented in that press conference).

I also hope that the Arabs and the Turks are able to find common ground and mend their relations. There is so much potential for cooperation in many fields including defence between them and Pakistan as well.

 

[TomCat]

Lol, I know, but isn't Turkey advancing such a project too? Although there have been recent complications for the project due to Turkish-EU disputes. So can't Turkey and Pakistan cooperate? As for Indonesia and Malaysia, I have been seeing news of military cooperation between you guys and thought you guys could cooperate on research too.

Yea, however, Turks are on a similar stage to us, even tho TFX news has been for quite almost 6-7 years. They are working on a similar config as our AZM, but without canards. Isn't BAE involved in TFX?

 

[TomCat]

Salaam





I agree. As much as some people here dislike the Idea of cooperation between 'brotherly' nations it is certainly not a bad idea. There is strength in numbers.

If states can find allies in the geography (EU) which is incidental and still be successful, than I don't see anything mockworthy in states trying to find allies in people they share religious beliefs with.

The only potential issue - regardless of how improbable - I see the issue between Turkey and China. It seems very likely that Pakistan is going seek and likely receive a lot of help from China, and the Chinese may - and it seems unlikely but not impossible - not be happy about the Turks joining in.

However, I do think that is a very unlikely thing and most likely as both countries make progress on this front I do see a lot of cooperation happening on these and other defence related projects as was indicated by Erdogan and Mahatir Mohammad recently where they mentioned defence cooperation between Turkey, Malaysia and Pakistan (even though Pakistan wasn't represented in that press conference).

I also hope that the Arabs and the Turks are able to find common ground and mend their relations. There is so much potential for cooperation in many fields including defence between them and Pakistan as well.

THE FACT THAT UMMAH CONCEPT IS DONE FOR IS UNDENIABLE. No matter how much i and grieve over it, it's a past. Input of expertise in AZM from Malaysia or indonesia is unlikely or very small (indonesian IF-X). Malaysia is in no one's basket at the moment in regards to 5th Gen. Secondly, Indonesia has already invested money & manpower in KF-X/IF-X. They have less to none experience while we have MRF experience, AMF experience in the form of Thunder manufacturing , Flying experience over almost all important aircrafts in the world.

Turkey on the other hand has the experince on F-16 Assembly, Avionics research but it's not enough. Our APF is if not on same but close level to them due to getting ToT throughout the last decades of different avionics. China is the one that can give us the top level expertise for AZM.

We can try to boost our project by making it a JSF like project but that will involve investments from other countries as well as their shared interests and their own HURDLES. For example, Let's say we source our engine from a country that doesn't want their engine to get to one specific AZM partner, it will be a SITUATION. If we get investment from Middle East / Malaysia for AZM, it will be a pressure on PAC right then, more manpower, facility development, fast-paced R&D, will divert their attention from local goals such as Thunder Program. It would be wise for PAF to go Gripen E/F / Tejas MK2 route for thunder, converting it to a Medium weight platform.

Turkey (May Allah help and protect it) but i am not seeing a good future for them in the next decade. They are the closest geographically to NATO, non-nuclear nation, can be bullied easily by NATO when Turkey get on their nerves. NATO has nuclear nations and nations that have good converntional power as well. Hence one of the reason why PAF didn't opt for TFX Most probably.

Egypt is a good choice, they could invest, but given their close proximity with Israel, i personally would try to avoid that route as our AZM could crash in their territory, giving them a chance to read the jet to inches (this reason doesn't matter tho these times as aeronautics worldwide has advanced to such a standard that this situation rarely matters).

 

[TomCat]

THE FACT THAT UMMAH CONCEPT IS DONE FOR IS UNDENIABLE. No matter how much i and grieve over it, it's a past. Input of expertise in AZM from Malaysia or indonesia is unlikely or very small (indonesian IF-X). Malaysia is in no one's basket at the moment in regards to 5th Gen. Secondly, Indonesia has already invested money & manpower in KF-X/IF-X. They have less to none experience while we have MRF experience, AMF experience in the form of Thunder manufacturing , Flying experience over almost all important aircrafts in the world.

Turkey on the other hand has the experince on F-16 Assembly, Avionics research but it's not enough. Our APF is if not on same but close level to them due to getting ToT throughout the last decades of different avionics. China is the one that can give us the top level expertise for AZM.

We can try to boost our project by making it a JSF like project but that will involve investments from other countries as well as their shared interests and their own HURDLES. For example, Let's say we source our engine from a country that doesn't want their engine to get to one specific AZM partner, it will be a SITUATION. If we get investment from Middle East / Malaysia for AZM, it will be a pressure on PAC right then, more manpower, facility development, fast-paced R&D, will divert their attention from local goals such as Thunder Program. It would be wise for PAF to go Gripen E/F / Tejas MK2 route for thunder, converting it to a Medium weight platform.

Turkey (May Allah help and protect it) but i am not seeing a good future for them in the next decade. They are the closest geographically to NATO, non-nuclear nation, can be bullied easily by NATO when Turkey get on their nerves. NATO has nuclear nations and nations that have good converntional power as well. Hence one of the reason why PAF didn't opt for TFX Most probably.

Egypt is a good choice, they could invest, but given their close proximity with Israel, i personally would try to avoid that route as our AZM could crash in their territory, giving them a chance to read the jet to inches (this reason doesn't matter tho these times as aeronautics worldwide has advanced to such a standard that this situation rarely matters).

Your opinions ? @Khafee @Signalian @AliYusuf @Mangus Ortus Novem

 

[Falcon29]

THE FACT THAT UMMAH CONCEPT IS DONE FOR IS UNDENIABLE. No matter how much i and grieve over it, it's a past. Input of expertise in AZM from Malaysia or indonesia is unlikely or very small (indonesian IF-X). Malaysia is in no one's basket at the moment in regards to 5th Gen. Secondly, Indonesia has already invested money & manpower in KF-X/IF-X. They have less to none experience while we have MRF experience, AMF experience in the form of Thunder manufacturing , Flying experience over almost all important aircrafts in the world.

Turkey on the other hand has the experince on F-16 Assembly, Avionics research but it's not enough. Our APF is if not on same but close level to them due to getting ToT throughout the last decades of different avionics. China is the one that can give us the top level expertise for AZM.

We can try to boost our project by making it a JSF like project but that will involve investments from other countries as well as their shared interests and their own HURDLES. For example, Let's say we source our engine from a country that doesn't want their engine to get to one specific AZM partner, it will be a SITUATION. If we get investment from Middle East / Malaysia for AZM, it will be a pressure on PAC right then, more manpower, facility development, fast-paced R&D, will divert their attention from local goals such as Thunder Program. It would be wise for PAF to go Gripen E/F / Tejas MK2 route for thunder, converting it to a Medium weight platform.

Turkey (May Allah help and protect it) but i am not seeing a good future for them in the next decade. They are the closest geographically to NATO, non-nuclear nation, can be bullied easily by NATO when Turkey get on their nerves. NATO has nuclear nations and nations that have good converntional power as well. Hence one of the reason why PAF didn't opt for TFX Most probably.

Egypt is a good choice, they could invest, but given their close proximity with Israel, i personally would try to avoid that route as our AZM could crash in their territory, giving them a chance to read the jet to inches (this reason doesn't matter tho these times as aeronautics worldwide has advanced to such a standard that this situation rarely matters).

I had no intention of making this an 'Ummah' thing. I just seen increased cooperation between those several nations recently. And was curious. A fighter jet program is a higher profile thing so like Ibn Abdullah said I do expect it to be a Chinese-Pakistani venture in the end. Makes most sense.

 

[TomCat]

I had no intention of making this an 'Ummah' thing. I just seen increased cooperation between those several nations recently. And was curious. A fighter jet program is a higher profile thing so like Ibn Abdullah said I do expect it to be a Chinese-Pakistani venture in the end. Makes most sense.

Chinese-Pakistani was what it was all about in the end. The day i heard of "Indigenous 5th Gen jet by Ret(d) ACM Sohail Aman," any one could elaborate it to be a Chinese assisted project in the background. I do however feel, this time we would try as best to give most of our own input. Why would PAF play it risky with others who don't possess a 5th Gen when China already has first hand data on F-35 and J-20. Except for JSF, no other country 5th Gen program includes an EOTS other than CHINESE J-20 and FC-31. This is the best play with China

 

[TomCat]

Chinese-Pakistani was what it was all about in the end. The day i heard of "Indigenous 5th Gen jet by Ret(d) ACM Sohail Aman," any one could elaborate it to be a Chinese assisted project in the background. I do however feel, this time we would try as best to give most of our own input. Why would PAF play it risky with others who don't possess a 5th Gen when China already has first hand data on F-35 and J-20. Except for JSF, no other country 5th Gen program includes an EOTS other than CHINESE J-20 and FC-31. This is the best play with China

I do however want to see increased cooperation between these countries in the field of Naval-Ship building. Our Gwadar Shipyard under construction would be able to build large and ultra-large crude ships.

Experts believed that since Gwadar shipyard would eventually be the main facility for repairing and maintenance works because of its close proximity to the Persian Gulf through which nearly 38 per cent of the world’s precious goods largely oil and gas are carried.

With this and our KSEW shipyard being upgraded and both projects to be completed by at most 2024, we would have a good capacity to build frigates, submarines, destroyers, FACs, OPVs and given our experience, we would be a big contribution for that. This is where JV Programs must be made. Turkey doesn't need help in Shipbuilding as well but we can have many Middle Eastern, African and South Asian nations as customers / Partners.

 

[PewPew]

Any new news on this? You guys think Pakistan-Indonesia-Malaysia-Turkey could team up on such a project?

The PAF might be open to collaborating on various subsystems (e.g., engine, radar, missiles) or technologies (composites fabrication), but when it comes to the design and development of the fighter, it seems the PAF prefers going it alone.

The main reason is to minimize risk (when you have multiple stakeholders, the complications and in-fighting go up) and to expedite the project, especially as the doors on off-the-shelf jets close. This is more of a project management issue than politics.

THE FACT THAT UMMAH CONCEPT IS DONE FOR IS UNDENIABLE. No matter how much i and grieve over it, it's a past. Input of expertise in AZM from Malaysia or indonesia is unlikely or very small (indonesian IF-X). Malaysia is in no one's basket at the moment in regards to 5th Gen. Secondly, Indonesia has already invested money & manpower in KF-X/IF-X. They have less to none experience while we have MRF experience, AMF experience in the form of Thunder manufacturing , Flying experience over almost all important aircrafts in the world.

Turkey on the other hand has the experince on F-16 Assembly, Avionics research but it's not enough. Our APF is if not on same but close level to them due to getting ToT throughout the last decades of different avionics. China is the one that can give us the top level expertise for AZM.

We can try to boost our project by making it a JSF like project but that will involve investments from other countries as well as their shared interests and their own HURDLES. For example, Let's say we source our engine from a country that doesn't want their engine to get to one specific AZM partner, it will be a SITUATION. If we get investment from Middle East / Malaysia for AZM, it will be a pressure on PAC right then, more manpower, facility development, fast-paced R&D, will divert their attention from local goals such as Thunder Program. It would be wise for PAF to go Gripen E/F / Tejas MK2 route for thunder, converting it to a Medium weight platform.

Turkey (May Allah help and protect it) but i am not seeing a good future for them in the next decade. They are the closest geographically to NATO, non-nuclear nation, can be bullied easily by NATO when Turkey get on their nerves. NATO has nuclear nations and nations that have good converntional power as well. Hence one of the reason why PAF didn't opt for TFX Most probably.

Egypt is a good choice, they could invest, but given their close proximity with Israel, i personally would try to avoid that route as our AZM could crash in their territory, giving them a chance to read the jet to inches (this reason doesn't matter tho these times as aeronautics worldwide has advanced to such a standard that this situation rarely matters).

The concept of the Ummah is from Allah (SWT) and hard-coded into the Qur'an, it's not going away. The problem is that its application by Muslims is faulty, and that's because we're trying to mix water into a glass of dirt, therefore creating mud instead of water. For as long as the wrong sort of people are in charge of affairs, we'll not realize the concept -- or the benefits -- of the Ummah. That said, we shouldn't stop trying; God gives the honour to those who do His bidding, and if we stop trying, then we might risk losing His support.