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Pakistan News & Discussions

Bayernulan

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Thanks for the wishes to Pakistan.

Quran does not describe design of hijab, what hijab in Arabic language means is probably just a cover (Arabs may correct and give in precise translation), and as i remember listening from a learned scholar, Quran only guides about covering one's sexual parts both men and women. Now whatever is a sexual part can be interpreted differently in different cultures, where as cultures in different regions are ever evolving, specially Islamic states has been going towards conservative direction ever since Iranian revolution, which as well triggered conservative behavior in countries where Iranian influence wasn't existing example middleast.
But technically speaking sexual parts are only reproductive organs, so no issues in wearing any sports gear as far Quranic guidance is concerned, I personally don't even see any issues with swim suit as well, but wearing a thong is another thing, which is designed to arouse sex appeal.

Sharia is a vogue term, but Quran does not restrict humans to make rules and laws of society as it suits them, expect few rules which are clearly stated in Quran, one example: with whom one is allowed to marry! but at the same time Quran does not restrict on number of marriages. but in different Islamic states the law about number of marriages is different.
In Turkey only one marriage is allowed by law, while in Saudi Arabia there's no limit on number of marriages, in Pakistan the number of marriages is fixed to max 4, but non violate any rules defined in Quran!

No forcing is allowed based on religious matters, however any law approved by society must be followed, unless it's conflicting with defined rules in Quran. example: if European law says girls are not allowed cover head or face, it must be followed even by Muslims, but if European law says all girls must remove cloths, here Muslims have right to fight any attempt of enforcing such law upon them.

Disclaimer, Others may correct me but use logic and reference from Quran.
Thanks again for your reply.

"but wearing a thong...." I fully agree, but as in the case of these Malayan or Indonesian Muslim girls or Hindu girls swimming partially topless, I am convinced that this had nothing to do with arousing sex appeal, but simply being a part of their previous natural behavior.

The way I get to understand your reply is: Just before the Iranian Islamic revolution and especially upon the introduction or emphasis onto Sharia in Iran and Saudi Arabia - these "conservative/restrictive" issues start to get revived/introduced in Muslim communities throughout the world.

If so, then there must have been also quite a visible social change in Pakistan's society after 1991 (Enforcement of Shariat Act. Section 4 of the Constitution mandates) I have never been to Pakistan so I could imagine they went through the same process as e.g. Muslim Malaysians or Indonesians.
 
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BATMAN

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Thanks again for your reply.

"but wearing a thong...." I fully agree, but as in the case of these Malayan or Indonesian Muslim girls or Hindu girls swimming partially topless, I am convinced that this had nothing to do with arousing sex appeal, but simply being a part of their previous natural behavior.

The way I get to understand your reply is: Just before the Iranian Islamic revolution and especially upon the introduction or emphasis onto Sharia in Iran and Saudi Arabia - these "conservative/restrictive" issues start to get revived/introduced in Muslim communities throughout the world.

If so, then there must have been also quite a visible social change in Pakistan's society after 1991 (Enforcement of Shariat Act. Section 4 of the Constitution mandates) I have never been to Pakistan so I could imagine they went through the same process as e.g. Muslim Malaysians or Indonesians.

I already said definition of sexual /private parts is individual and societal thing.
In Europe legs /arms are not necessarily seen as sexual parts, but situation in conservative societies may be different.
Therefore respective societies must adopt their local laws according to the public mentality and behavior.

I'm not a scholar but for you i'm quoting the translation of Quranic verse as copied from internet:
Let them draw their veils over their chests, and not reveal their ˹hidden˺ adornments3 except to their husbands, their fathers, their fathers-in-law, their sons, their stepsons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons or sisters’ sons, their fellow women, those ˹bondwomen˺ in their possession, male attendants with no desire, or children who are still unaware of women’s nakedness.
translation above precisely talk about a) hidden adornments b)chest

we all know what chest is but how far it's coverings should go... can be decided by individuals depend on the behavior of society.
This verse was revealed in a situation when non-believer residents of Mecca used to make mischief with believing (Muslim) women, so messengers was guided about how to adopt, but Muslims take all Quranic guidance as universal and valid in all times.... there's no more bonded women... it's was a prevailing practice world wide, in pre-Islamic times, and this is not the subject matter.

What you talk about may fall under the ''hidden adornments'' for me this is body parts that defines women, i.e. what's different than man.
Again here, what define women can be whatever you reason. Women evolve with age, so here adoption may be according to age but it's not mentioned in Quran as such. One thing is confirmed that young girls only need to wear simple cloths.

However, very next words which i didn't quoted above are:
Let them not stomp their feet, drawing attention to their hidden adornments.
Here i understood mainly chest and buts (can't be all body). How the dress should be to achieve this is technical issue. one example, wearing loose cloth but not necessarily.

In any case; head and face cover is clearly not mentioned, BUT it's not a sin to cover your head or face in special cases, like when it's strong sun shining, or dust or out break of viral disease.

However beyond above quoted verses, more is only for men instead of women i.e.
Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their chastity. That is purer for them

I think there's nothing more to dig out in this subject, which is very simple and clear, but for more questions, you shall seek learned scholar in Malaysia, who have full understanding of Arabic language and ask around if scholar is not part of some axis of evil.... like Khumeni was-

P.S.: any thing beyond Quran can never be termed as sharia but Islamic world is full of brain washed, who don't understand a single verse of Quran or have their own evil agenda.
 
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BATMAN

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Thank you MBS, without economic support Pakistan would be bankrupt and fully collapsed. i.e. no army no industry only Iranian trained militias and IRGC roaming in streets of Pakistan.
 

Bayernulan

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Thank you MBS, without economic support Pakistan would be bankrupt and fully collapsed. i.e. no army no industry only Iranian trained militias and IRGC roaming in streets of Pakistan.
Thanks again for your time,

It might be my fault that this discussion has turned too much into "chest" etc. I had only brought up these examples so as to show how much Malaysia or Indonesia's Muslims have changed since the mid 70'ies. Meaning from a very tolerant religion and liberal minded people to something rather like being "self-restricted and beholding a partially intolerant mindset".
Those 3 Imam's I had talked to, had all spend some time in Saudi-Arabia and were clearly convinced that their teachings were according to the scriptures of the Quran which had not been observed correctly by the previous society. Whilst higher educated Malay's in military and government positions did not share that view at all.
Their explanation is that due to Malaysia's political culture and landscape, the government is "bowing" towards the Imam's and their teachings - in regards to catching those "brainwashed peoples" votes.

The difference between e.g. Roman Catholic priests and Islam Imam's seems to be that the latter's teaching's do not seem to be controlled - or are not in need of being "validated" by a superior religious institution.

As for Pakistan's bankruptcy; what is the cause? all previous governments having worked only towards filling their own pockets?
Has your new PM Shahbaz - declared a new political strategy and economic program to alter this situation?
 

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that's what's happening in Pakistan ever since death of Zia ul Haq.

 

BATMAN

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Thanks again for your time,

It might be my fault that this discussion has turned too much into "chest" etc. I had only brought up these examples so as to show how much Malaysia or Indonesia's Muslims have changed since the mid 70'ies. Meaning from a very tolerant religion and liberal minded people to something rather like being "self-restricted and beholding a partially intolerant mindset".
Those 3 Imam's I had talked to, had all spend some time in Saudi-Arabia and were clearly convinced that their teachings were according to the scriptures of the Quran which had not been observed correctly by the previous society. Whilst higher educated Malay's in military and government positions did not share that view at all.
Their explanation is that due to Malaysia's political culture and landscape, the government is "bowing" towards the Imam's and their teachings - in regards to catching those "brainwashed peoples" votes.

The difference between e.g. Roman Catholic priests and Islam Imam's seems to be that the latter's teaching's do not seem to be controlled - or are not in need of being "validated" by a superior religious institution.

As for Pakistan's bankruptcy; what is the cause? all previous governments having worked only towards filling their own pockets?
Has your new PM Shahbaz - declared a new political strategy and economic program to alter this situation?
we can't change the individuals, everyone is free to decide for her and him self.
however, in our experience in Pakistan poor and uneducated people are pron to exploitation.
Exploiters masquerade themselves even imam, in process build up their pressure groups or worst gangs, and manage to force their will by way of violence and sabotage.
In democracy every one's vote is equal therefore politicians who require to give in or close eyes.
worst is because of Iran, who brain wash his foreign followers to extremism and worst give them militancy training to exploit respective states, by way of violence and small yet fanatic pressure groups.

Pakistan's new finance minister managed to strike balance between payments and earnings, by banning (imposing duties) imports of luxury goods. With arrival of new govt. oil smuggling went down, waste of public money stopped, so these were couple of major contributing factors, which put Pak eco. is back on track.
 
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