Pakistan to get F16 -Blk70/72 | Page 27 | World Defense

Pakistan to get F16 -Blk70/72

Signalian

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@Signalian In a parallel world you beautifully outlined how a strong PAF would have helped PA & PN, can you repeat that statement here?

Would appreciate it.
During any phase of ground assault on enemy positions, own ground forces are supported by artillery as well as air support. Artillery is used for suppressing enemy so own infantry can reach as close possible as possible to enemy positions without taking enemy fire and get enemy within range of small arms fire including assault rifle, LMG, RPG etc. This also ensures that own infantry can assault enemy positions from multiple directions without getting detected. Pakistan's Artillery arsenal is adequate for fire support and its very very effective. But Artillery has its limitations since artillery has difficulty taking out moving targets, at rare occasions it cannot achieve required trajectory etc. Due to experience In past wars, PA shifted Mortar batteries into Infantry battalion's weapons platoon. This gives much needed indirect fire to infantry assaulting enemy positions using 81 mm or 120 mm mortars in some cases.

Strikes by Aircrafts are extremely effective, much more than effectiveness of artillery at times. They have longer range than artillery, they can carry different types of missiles or bombs, they can undertake different types of missions like interdiction, strategic strike, tactical bombing etc. I can give an example from 1965 war between Pakistan and India. PAF F-86 Sabre flew into Indian airspace and targeted an Indian Army reinforcement convoy heading towards Lahore sector. PA ground forces which were out numbered near BRB canal dug in and prepared a defensive line against IA attacks. Had these Indian reinforcements reached Lahore sector, history would have been changed. This is something Artillery cannot do. Then the specialized weaponry that aircrafts carry, like missiles and bombs, are used to target different kinds of weapons. Bombs are used to target enemy positions, ammo/fuel dumps, bridges etc. Strafing with 23 mm or 30 mm on lightly armored vehicles like trucks can reduce convoys to dust within minutes where as missiles can take out enemy moving targets like MBTs, IFVs, SP Arty, SP AD as well as prove useful in DEAD Ops after which Gunships can be sent in to mop op enemy armor.

Mirage-V can carry all sorts of bombs and missiles, long range- short range, its a perfect aircraft for any type of ground strike operations. F-16s are tier-1 fighters, so their availability is skeptical for PA, but they carry a very important missile - AGM 65 - which A-10 in USAF uses effectively against Enemy Armor like MBT/IFV/APC etc. If im not wrong, an F-16 can carry 6 x AGM 65 per sortie. PAF could have kept flying A-5 and seconded it to squadrons supporting PA in strike roles, since its difficult to spare Mirage-V and F-16 for PA operations.

Feb 27th 2019, PAF sent in Mirage-V strike aircraft to drop bombs near an enemy Brigade HQ. This feat couldn't have been achieved by PA Artillery if it was tasked to take out an enemy Brigade HQ. In Military, If a Brigade HQ is lost along with its staff, the coordination between Battalions and Division is affected. Brigade Commander is not the only POC, the G-1 Staff officer attached from Div HQ and most importantly Brigade Major and Brigade's G-3 Staff officer who are coordinating with battalions are lost. The Divisional Colonel Staff will have a hell of a time reaching all battalions for report and progress. Basically the load will be shifted on to Divisional HQ, which will already be handling 3-4 other Brigades. This is the reason PAF decided to strike near Brigade HQ, to let India know that Pakistan is capable of taking out critical staff in Indian Ranks who are responsible for operations from Indian side on LOC. Obviously, PA would have requested PAF to vector in on IA Bde HQ, to send this message across the border.

Simply put, PAF sending in aircrafts for ground strikes on enemy positions saves lives of PA soldiers on the ground, it also minimizes the time and effort taken to capture a position. This is what Blitzkrieg was all about - Stukas and Panzers. Gulf wars are examples. For an Infantry soldier, there is an effect of morale when friendly aircraft show up in the sky. There is an effect on morale seeing MBTs as well as Commandos showing up on battlefield for an infantry soldier, but when the aircrafts arrive, the theater commander as well the ordinary soldier knows that the task has been made easy, these aircrafts will bomb the hell out of enemy and pave the way for advance. In 1971 war in East Pakistan, SSG was sent everywhere with PA Infantry, because of morale boosting, but the lone squadron of PAF could not do much to blunt IAF attacks neither proved effective in combat.

Regarding Navy, PN is very small compared to mammoth sized IN. Its very difficult for IN to conduct offensive operations in Indian waters. yes submarines is an option for PN, due to their stealthy nature of remaining submerged, but IN has acquired submarine hunting aircrafts like P-8 which can pose a threat to PN subs. To bolster PN's strike capability as well as giving PN a chance to stand against IN in the event of war - PAF's air support is extremely important. IN has acquired Naval Mig-29's and it will be supported by SU30MKI and Rafale in future. India knows it has edge in Navy, so IN will exploit it fully. This is where 12 x Mirage V of PAF's 8th Squadron are found out numbered. Exocet is an excellent missile but Mirage-V will need to operate under air cover - so will ATR-72 and P3-C Orions. 2nd Squadron of PAF comprising of JF-17 will support PN in Naval operations, but its classified as MR (Multi Role) Squadron, which means its role can be shifted from Maritime Operations to AD or AS even., leaving behind 8th Squadron as dedicated Naval support squadron.
 

Mastankhan

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The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe, that during the Mushy years PAF should have bought at least 70~80 Blk52's, and a lot of other h/w.

As a front line state on WOT, they sold themselves short.
Hi,

The Paf had america by the ballz---they could have had as many F16's as they wanted---but none had the courage and ballz to make the demand---.

That is where the crux of my main problem with the Paf comes from---.
@Signalian In a parallel world you beautifully outlined how a strong PAF would have helped PA & PN, can you repeat that statement here?

Would appreciate it.
Hi,

But otoh you look at the surge of pakistani tank brigade into india from across sindh border---they had nothing in front other than infantry---. Indians ask for the help of their air force---they come---pak army asks for the help of their air force---Paf refuses---pak tanks are decimated---otherwise---pak armor would have chopped up a major piece of property---.

You look at 71 war---PIA pilot says gun boats being pulled behind a ship---. The pakistani base commander does not have the courage to launch a recon mission to see what it is---calls his boss---the air chief---who refuses to oblige---pak naval shipyard and fuel tanks are decimated---.

Kargil war---the Paf doesn't eveb have tier 1 aircraft that can fight a war---.

Aftermath of Kargil war---pak army had shot down 2 aircraft on pakistan's side---and mutliple aircraft on the indian side thru SA missiles---( the indian air chief recently claimed he was shot down during Kargil war---and no one raised an eye brow from pakistan's side---that what aircraft was he flying )---

So---this Atlantique and navy aircraft wants to take off for recce mission---they are advised not to---but it still does---.

On seeing the navy aircraft is vulnerable---the Paf does nothing---does not launch a shadow aircraft of their own to track the Atlantique---.


For this very reason---the US marines have called the USAF traitors---they faced the same problems---so they created their own air force---so that the marines don't have to depend on the air support---.
 

maxpane

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also keep in mind US in past has rejected to authorize the sale of 16 Jordanian Air Force F-16 to PAF
sir g i am ignorant but i heard that we have to replace 250 jet till 2015./
there was a plan for jf 17 from day one.
it was for the replacement of of f6 and f7 .
why did we go again for f 16 when we knew that they would sanction our jets any time .

i was talking about third platform to meet the numbers and counter US influence . we had wasted almost two decades.
From Rafael to EF to J 10 and still we are struggling .
i was not talking about defensive gadgets . i was talking about fighter jets to meet the num and to counter Americqn influence.
i am ignorant but am always open to learn.
 

Khafee

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You look at 71 war---PIA pilot says gun boats being pulled behind a ship---. The pakistani base commander does not have the courage to launch a recon mission to see what it is---calls his boss---the air chief---who refuses to oblige---pak naval shipyard and fuel tanks are decimated---.
This is the fundamental difference in Western training and Soviet training. The degree of independence a sector commander, or an officer holds.

At the end of the day, people need to ask, what do such rigid rules achieve?

So---this Atlantique and navy aircraft wants to take off for recce mission---they are advised not to---but it still does---.

On seeing the navy aircraft is vulnerable---the Paf does nothing---does not launch a shadow aircraft of their own to track the Atlantique---.
Given the nature of your neighbour, one would think that the PAF would have a lot more common sense.

For this very reason---the US marines have called the USAF traitors---they faced the same problems---so they created their own air force---so that the marines don't have to depend on the air support---.
IMO, BEFORE a unit heads out it should make sure that CAS is in place, it might NOT need it, but its better to insure that should the need arise, the asset is in place. After all not everyone can afford a separate air wing.

PN desperately needs a "Strike Air Wing" and the way its procurements are progressing IA +/-3yrs it will have one.


Aftermath of Kargil war---pak army had shot down 2 aircraft on pakistan's side---and mutliple aircraft on the indian side thru SA missiles---( the indian air chief recently claimed he was shot down during Kargil war---and no one raised an eye brow from pakistan's side---that what aircraft was he flying )---
Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief, Dhanoa is also a MiG-21 pilot and had flown the planes during the 1999 Kargil war while commanding the 17 Squadron, during the war.

 

IbnAbdullah

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Salaam

Neither are they going for any Chinese Twins, which is a pity.

Reminds of this quote attributed to Groucho Marx: I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.

Maybe PAF only considers Air craft that are hard to get.
 

PewPew

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This is the fundamental difference in Western training and Soviet training. The degree of independence a sector commander, or an officer holds.

At the end of the day, people need to ask, what do such rigid rules achieve?


Given the nature of your neighbour, one would think that the PAF would have a lot more common sense.


IMO, BEFORE a unit heads out it should make sure that CAS is in place, it might NOT need it, but its better to insure that should the need arise, the asset is in place. After all not everyone can afford a separate air wing.

PN desperately needs a "Strike Air Wing" and the way its procurements are progressing IA +/-3yrs it will have one.




Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief, Dhanoa is also a MiG-21 pilot and had flown the planes during the 1999 Kargil war while commanding the 17 Squadron, during the war.

IMO the PN should fund the development of a carrier borne version of Project Azm.

Why stop at just two land based squadrons? It's time to make use of China's economies of scale and save up for an aircraft carrier post-2030.

If you're to develop a twin engine 5th-gen fighter, then let's go all the way and get maximum utility from such a design. In addition, re-use the 5th gen tech to develop unmanned strike aircraft too.

Coupled with mass-produced Jinnah class frigates that, in the long run could potentially take on a long-range SAM, guarding a carrier is doable. The PN can create a ring from Karachi to Gwadar to Somalia (and secure our uranium needs from Somalia too).
 

HRK

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sir g i am ignorant but i heard that we have to replace 250 jet till 2015./
there was a plan for jf 17 from day one.
it was for the replacement of of f6 and f7 .
why did we go again for f 16 when we knew that they would sanction our jets any time .

i was talking about third platform to meet the numbers and counter US influence . we had wasted almost two decades.
From Rafael to EF to J 10 and still we are struggling .
i was not talking about defensive gadgets . i was talking about fighter jets to meet the num and to counter Americqn influence.
i am ignorant but am always open to learn.
First of all ignorant remarks and ignorant person are two different things not necessarily both have relations in every case some informed person make ignorant remakes in s feild not related to them, so note I termed your post as ignorant not to you as a person

Now come your this post in which you have raised 3 basic queries
1- Why we have not inducted any third type?
2- Why we inducted F-16?
3- Why JF-17 production is slow?

Now for the first question recall the state in which PAF was during 90s and in the mid of 2000s

We were flying second generation F-6 and F-7 as interceptors, A-5 as ground attack, fleet of F-16 was almost grounded, Mirage jets were the mainstay platform and all of the fleet was not capable to conduct night operations

PAF had no network centric warfare strategy, had no data link or early waring platforms it was basically a SECOND GENERATION air force during that time period

Above is just a glimpse of the state PAF was suffering during that period but on political grounds no one was ready to sale us any platform including USA till 2005, who explicitly rejected the request of F-16 sales in earlier visit Musharaf to America

Sweden refused to sales us Gripen jets as per its state policy of not selling offensive weapons to nondemocratic countries.

Rafale was offered at exorbitant price of around ~120 to ~150 million during that time (before 2005) keep in mind those Rafale jets were non AESA version, just to remind you Farance is currently selling AESA version of Rafale to India in the same price.

Now on financial side Pakistan after 2001went for rescheduling of its national debt with Paris club which gave Pakistan some fiscal space but sizable fiscal deficit was still in existence

Now as above I have given you the back ground of technical, political and fiscial issues Pakistan as a whole and PAF as an organization was facing before 2005, therefore now you can understand that PAF as an oganization was not in position to absorb those 4+ generation jets in PAF before to upgrade itself completely it is because of this reason you see PAF invested fortune in Radar network, C4ISR, EARLY WARNING and AESA platforms, its was actually not a transition but a long jump to be a 4 gen air force from the 2 gen air force

Last point on financial constrains before to address your points about J-10 and F-16

Its is believed by many that PAF donated the funds for acquisition of fighter jets for the rehabilitation of earthquake victim. This is the false propagation of events of the past as NO FUNDS WERE AVAILABLE FOR FIGHTER JET ACQUISITION TILL THAT TIME for this official records can be checked by anyone who is interested

US gave approval for the sales of F-16 just few days before the Oct-2005 Earthquake, and government of had to allocate funds to place the orders and anyone who have rudimentary knowledge of finance knows that all the funds are not allocated or transfer in one go but in installments and till the time of earthquake no allocation even for the advance was allocated by Government of Pakistan so there is no question to blame PAF in this regards

Now in reply to your question about induction of F-16 at that time, I would say it was the only platform which was available under realistic financial conditions and absorbable by PAF into its fleet with simultaneous upgraded of PAF infrastructure, here again recall that Rafale was offered at ~$120 to ~$150 million without AESA radar which offered no valuable advantage over F-16 blk52+ at that time

In addition to this Typhoon was not on offer during 2001-2005, and I have already commented about Gripen fighter jet in this post

For J-10 listen recent interview of deputy chief AVM Shahid Lateef he said it was found short in performance on 50 different parameters, later version J-10B was similar in performance to JF-17 blk-II

Now your last query in regards of JF-17 production it was indeed slow in Zardari government due to many factors such as finance, less number trained manpower to work on the project, infrastructure was in development but 16 jets per year for PAF is normal rate of production
 

PewPew

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First of all ignorant remarks and ignorant person are two different things not necessarily both have relations in every case some informed person make ignorant remakes in s feild not related to them, so note I termed your post as ignorant not to you as a person

Now come your this post in which you have raised 3 basic queries
1- Why we have not inducted any third type?
2- Why we inducted F-16?
3- Why JF-17 production is slow?

Now for the first question recall the state in which PAF was during 90s and in the mid of 2000s

We were flying second generation F-6 and F-7 as interceptors, A-5 as ground attack, fleet of F-16 was almost grounded, Mirage jets were the mainstay platform and all of the fleet was not capable to conduct night operations

PAF had no network centric warfare strategy, had no data link or early waring platforms it was basically a SECOND GENERATION air force during that time period

Above is just a glimpse of the state PAF was suffering during that period but on political grounds no one was ready to sale us any platform including USA till 2005, who explicitly rejected the request of F-16 sales in earlier visit Musharaf to America

Sweden refused to sales us Gripen jets as per its state policy of not selling offensive weapons to nondemocratic countries.

Rafale was offered at exorbitant price of around ~120 to ~150 million during that time (before 2005) keep in mind those Rafale jets were non AESA version, just to remind you Farance is currently selling AESA version of Rafale to India in the same price.

Now on financial side Pakistan after 2001went for rescheduling of its national debt with Paris club which gave Pakistan some fiscal space but sizable fiscal deficit was still in existence

Now as above I have given you the back ground of technical, political and fiscial issues Pakistan as a whole and PAF as an organization was facing before 2005, therefore now you can understand that PAF as an oganization was not in position to absorb those 4+ generation jets in PAF before to upgrade itself completely it is because of this reason you see PAF invested fortune in Radar network, C4ISR, EARLY WARNING and AESA platforms, its was actually not a transition but a long jump to be a 4 gen air force from the 2 gen air force

Last point on financial constrains before to address your points about J-10 and F-16

Its is believed by many that PAF donated the funds for acquisition of fighter jets for the rehabilitation of earthquake victim. This is the false propagation of events of the past as NO FUNDS WERE AVAILABLE FOR FIGHTER JET ACQUISITION TILL THAT TIME for this official records can be checked by anyone who is interested

US gave approval for the sales of F-16 just few days before the Oct-2005 Earthquake, and government of had to allocate funds to place the orders and anyone who have rudimentary knowledge of finance knows that all the funds are not allocated or transfer in one go but in installments and till the time of earthquake no allocation even for the advance was allocated by Government of Pakistan so there is no question to blame PAF in this regards

Now in reply to your question about induction of F-16 at that time, I would say it was the only platform which was available under realistic financial conditions and absorbable by PAF into its fleet with simultaneous upgraded of PAF infrastructure, here again recall that Rafale was offered at ~$120 to ~$150 million without AESA radar which offered no valuable advantage over F-16 blk52+ at that time

In addition to this Typhoon was not on offer during 2001-2005, and I have already commented about Gripen fighter jet in this post

For J-10 listen recent interview of deputy chief AVM Shahid Lateef he said it was found short in performance on 50 different parameters, later version J-10B was similar in performance to JF-17 blk-II

Now your last query in regards of JF-17 production it was indeed slow in Zardari government due to many factors such as finance, less number trained manpower to work on the project, infrastructure was in development but 16 jets per year for PAF is normal rate of production
The Typhoon and Rafale were looked at for the PAF's 'Plus-One' requirement, but didn't offer much beyond the Block-52. So they selected the cheaper FC-20, which in turn was supposed to take on a more strike oriented role (while Block-52/MLUs offered top cover).
 

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Hi,

Nation don't allow you to test their aircraft for purchase without showing them your source of funding---.

Gen Msuharraf himself has stated on record that we were going with cash in hand an no one will sell us---.

I understand---Swedes are different---you already knew they won't sell you---but why did he not make F16's a part of the deal after he signed with the US---. Why did the Paf not intervene.

The Paf readily gave up its air bases but did not fight hard enough to get the F16's---. It is not believable---.

If the US Pres could declare war on the Taliban---he could also get the relief on the F16's as well.

What happened with the PAF heirarchy was---that it never saw a surge in numbers of F16's would bring india to sign the peace deal----or if Paf had signed the Rafales---same would have happened---.

Paf heirarchy never had the BRAINS to attach higher number of 4th gen aircraft to making peace---.

The Paf heirarchy just remained in the mindset of defending the nation's skies---.
 
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Mastankhan

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Last rumour I heard about EF is that UK (or Italy , country of origin was not mentioned) was demanding euro 60 million for each block-1 Typhoons spares and some armaments were part of the package, but deal fell through for some reason, my guess in this regard is that the upgrade package was expensive and was not included in 60 million EUR price so overall it was an expansive deal.

For Su-35 Russians did not entertain our request to integrate it with AESA Radar for some unknown reason and were also resisting to integrate Chinese and Pakistani weapon package which PAF already have in its inventory

I can not confirm or deny these rumors but if these are true than we are left only with JF-17 option

One option for which many of us were enthusiasts about was the J-10CE (export model) but it appears that it is J-10B with AESA so in other words in reality its J-10B+ as it is reported PLAF is still reluctant to grant permission for the export of J-10C additionally other than weapon pay load on the same number of hard points as JF-17 the J-10CE does not offer combat radius better than JF-17
Hi

In the late 80’s there was a lots of unrest in interior sindh. Gangs of armed thieves pillaging villages.

Land owners / villagers went and bought Ak47’s from Bara area. Take a wild guess what they paid for each to protect their familes——-Rs80000—-90000
$4000 to 6000 per AK
where the cost of new AK47 was maybe $150 a rifle.

That shows you that pakistanis would rather screw their motherland but when it comes to protecting their familes, price is never a question.
 
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Khafee

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The Paf heirarchy just remained in the mindset of defending the nation's skies---.
This tells me their Doctrine needs to change. Can they do this, or will GoP have to step in?
 

IbnAbdullah

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This tells me their Doctrine needs to change. Can they do this, or will GoP have to step in?
I think the strategies they develop are towards the goals that are decided. If one hears most of the military and political people talk about these things - they focus on defence of whatever we have. I suppose maybe that is the only option or maybe not.

My guess is that 1971 really did a number on our people. The current military leadership joined around that time and I think that may have had an affect on their attitude. It likely made them a lot more cautious.

I can understand as well, because they saw Pakistan lose East Pakistan and I cannot even imagine the nightmares the military leadership would have about losing more land to them. That's why I understand when I see them always talk about being ready to fight off any invasion by India even though from our traditional claim, it should be us who attacks. The Indians are always willing to make the LOC the IB.

However, if we were to decide that not only do we want to defend the bit that we have but also work towards taking back Kashmir - which would be a long term term strategy - maybe we'd see a change in the mind set as well.
 

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This tells me their Doctrine needs to change. Can they do this, or will GoP have to step in?
You need a hawkish political leadership, one with a lot more weight than any general or air marshal. So a PM who says, 'if you walk for peace, we'll run' isn't going to cause a shift in doctrine. For all his issues, you can credit ZAB for at least being a hawk, but he picked fights at the wrong time (Op Gibralter should've been during the Indo-Sino War, giy should've shut up about the 1970/71 election results, etc)
 

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@Khafee an air chief must not and cannot determine how the nation needs ti act. It is not the job of air chief to make that call.

The problem with pakistani civilians is that they are illiterate in matters of war and power positioning. You will hardly see anyone capable to talk and take a stand.
 

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