Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72 | Page 82 | World Defense

Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

Signalian

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It’s practically gonna take a handful of at least 60+ JF-17s Block 2 to even get past by those 24-34 MKIs around a bomber, which aren’t sticked just a 100m around the bomber rather a long way from it just in case. You cannot get a lock on the bomber easily, only your luck can. Even then you have multiple engines on the bomber to be destroyed to successfully down it. This is where guns come in handy, you have a better chance to NOT waste missiles and get a direct (less effective) hit but need to do more. But ok, we are a defensive force in this scenerio, let’s say, we by any chance lose all the fighters we sent earlier, we sent in another herd, at the same time, different points of our border, we have bogeys coming in to distract our focus from a single op, Central Air Command loses focus, gets panic. The result will be a havoc, we lose half of airforce in a single op. Air defences are a good addition but in this scenerio, friendly fire probability will peak.
Your scenario is a bit unrealistic considering the number of aircrafts involved. It has to define a target to be bombed. Stand off weapons - which SU30 can carry itself also. I dont see why specialized bombers are needed by IAF.

Anyways, PAF will not just send JF-17s but also F-16s as well as Mirage-III and probably even F-7PG. EW and Jamming will occur from both sides. As PAF AWACS picks up IAF targets, it vectors in aircraft from different directions to take on the IAF aircraft, diluting the escorting aircraft. An aerial TF/Group is formed just to take on the bomber/bombers while the other PAF aircrafts take on the escorts. BVR missiles should be able to get locks on all IAF aircrafts- whether fighter or bomber.
 

TomCat

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BTW,
You guys can watch this just as a small hint of what an H-6 mission is all about.

Key Points -
The video is here is of a Video Game, ACE COMBAT 6, it’s just a game but game engine is quite close to being realistic as Namco Bandai ( Developer) hired professionals from aviation and Air force for optimising the game engine respectedly.
However, some unrealistic points here are
- unlimited missiles
- Recovery after getting hit (unlimted health)
- No friendly Fire
- Badly planned mission in terms of reality

 

Signalian

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Let’s convert this scenerio to an offensive by PAF as all of you were suggesting earlier,
We send in H-6, with let’s say 36 Block 3, 12 J-15, (EW optimized special versions also in the fleet), H-6 being slow, slow downs the overall op, we get interceptions by Fulcrums, not a big task, we can get rid of them much easily given their current weak selves. But let’s say, rafale and MKIs come in, and an IN carrier group / Naval group capable of AD in the close proximity. This will be a let down. India being defensive force, will put in everything to save itself, have a huge fleet of MKIs, can send in 32 MKIs, along with 20 rafales, we are surely a goner. Now if planned in coordination with navy, we have 2 naval groups along with subs, they will try to take on the opposing naval groups by submariens and frigates/corvettes as well as provide us AD for fighters coming from far, AD will definitely prove worthy as a big fleet approaching unless jams our AD missiles, can definitely get hit, if not first, then the second jet thanks to being a group.

Our H-6 and the group is still a longway, we are short of supporting fighters. In the end, we lose. Even if H-6 manages to pull off its targets, it won’t return.

Result - Loss of almost half of our capable fleet. The bigger loss would be our competent pilots who spent 15-20+ years perfecting their abilities just to be killed in a poorly planned, supportless op due to us being a tiny Airforce with hardly 300 modern fighters. For an op like this, we need to be an AirForce with at least 800-1000 4++ Gen fighters but that as well requires us to becomes an offensive force, blue water navy which is not the case right now. Loss in this op demoralize our pilots, military alltogether, gives a big boost in morale to the adversary, they try to do mischief through land, we give them a SERIOUS NUCLEAR THREAT. World Powers intervene in the situation, put forward conditions which might not be suitable for us. Loss-Loss


Secondly, there is a reason some of you above (can’t remember) have been pointing out the fact that only 3 countries in the world have used /are able to use bombers efficiently and what do we see here common in all of them? A huge gigantic airforce, a loss of 80-100 fighters might just feel like a scratch to their might.

As for H-6 / TU-160 compared to B-2, they are more easy to be shot down, exposed engines, as compared to B-2, B-2, a masterpiece, exceptional design, stealthy, hard to get a lock on on the engines. Having H-6 and related ops to H-6 would only destroy us unless in time we become a formidble force with 1000+ fighters, having 5th gen fighters such as J-20 as well as 4++ such as Block 3, Vipers, J-10C, J-15, J-16 or EFT. That’s why 5Th gen is a game changers, They never know when you are coming, you take then down, go back as if no one knew (interceptions happen but you knock them out in BVR as you have advantage of extremely low RCS) .

HENCE, why JH-7s would play better for us -
~ 8 12 JH7 coupled with AS FIGHTERS can definitely achieve the above goal faster with less chances of losses
~ Using JH-7 instead of H-6 is something PAF are ready to do at expertise level anytime sooner, PAF IS aware of it as a bombing mission, with supporting fighters, the pace, how to manage. H-6 type of missions are something PAF isn’t familiar with, would take at least 2035-40 to become as powerful to handle such missions.
~ Truely hypothetical, but i believe our air command isn’t capable to handle such “H-6 type of situation above” right now with no prior experience.

Here below is the engine of H-6 and TU-160
View attachment 11383View attachment 11384
COMPARE THEM WITH B-2

View attachment 11385View attachment 11386
IN will keep its carrier away from PN till the threat of PN subs is neutralized. While USN's basic offensive arm is its CBG, IN is not that lucky. Therefore PAF might come across IN Mig-29's at some point, but mostly IN Mig-29's will be escorting P-8 in hunting PN subs. IN carrier will probably be out of reach of PAF's current fleet. Loss of IN carrier will badly affect IN's fighting capability - it will be protected thoroughly by IN vessels, IN aircrafts and IAF aircrafts.

However, considering HRK's point, yes its important to take out Indian Naval installations either through air strike or submarines.
 

TomCat

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Your scenario is a bit unrealistic considering the number of aircrafts involved. It has to define a target to be bombed. Stand off weapons - which SU30 can carry itself also. I dont see why specialized bombers are needed by IAF.
That was heavily focusing on our defensive approach rather than their offensive. But yea, why would they even need strategic bombers...


We should focus on equipping our eastern and southern fronts will Block 3 or Vipers and flankers with AESA and can carry at least 6 bvr missiles with wvr. J-15, if comes, would be the best decision of PAF in decades passed by. I don’t see why we even had a light fighter program when medium weight is a necessity here. And also the fact that we are not pursuing numbers of 250+ of these light fighters (:-&(:-&
 

Signalian

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That was heavily focusing on our defensive approach rather than their offensive. But yea, why would they even need strategic bombers...


We should focus on equipping our eastern and southern fronts will Block 3 or Vipers and flankers with AESA and can carry at least 6 bvr missiles with wvr. J-15, if comes, would be the best decision of PAF in decades passed by. I don’t see why we even had a light fighter program when medium weight is a necessity here. And also the fact that we are not pursuing numbers of 250+ of these light fighters (:-&(:-&
You didnt read the first line of my post - what is/are the target/s ?

JF-17 is evolving into medium fighter, just like F-16 did. As for J-15 or EFT or SU-35 - heavy or stealth (J-31 or whenever project Azm gets off design board) ? and why ?
 

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You didnt read the first line of my post - what is/are the target/s ?

JF-17 is evolving into medium fighter, just like F-16 did. As for J-15 or EFT or SU-35 - heavy or stealth (J-31 or whenever project Azm gets off design board)
The core targets india might be interested are none other than Mili installations, Kahuta, Karachi/Gwadar ports or nuclear energy plants. And basically every target can be taken down by MKI with Brahmos (If it really is what is is said to be). So judging by this, our heavy focus should be on Short Range, Medium range but competent Air defence systems, medium weight fighters with Good BVR capability.
 

Signalian

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The core targets india might be interested are none other than Mili installations, Kahuta, Karachi/Gwadar ports or nuclear energy plants. And basically every target can be taken down by MKI with Brahmos (If it really is what is is said to be). So judging by this, our heavy focus should be on Short Range, Medium range but competent Air defence systems, medium weight fighters with Good BVR capability.
If India attacks nuclear installations as targets, Pakistan will retaliate in same manner.

In a war, FOB's/Radar/SAM sites/Bridges/Supply depots/Important HQ's/Naval Docks are the first targets. Then are Dams/Field HQ's/mobile missile launchers/Factories etc.

Now can you plot such Indian installations on a map and dedicate PAF strike aircrafts/aircraft types towards that mission ?
 

TomCat

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Get in Rashid Mahmood for talk on naval warfare including sub, anti sub, naval aviation etc- he knows all about it.
It was great, talking with you,
Made me think like a professional for 2 minutes,
Gave thought to what you asked me,
Found out the pair of Mirages and Thunder to be extremely useful in most scenerios. However, we are short in deep strike platforms which needs to be teamed up with F-16s and Thunders for CAS as well as Mirages for SEAD.

Ok, i get it. But we hear every other time, Thunders will replace Delta Mirages. Thunders do have LERX to provide Lift. On the other hand, some believe Delta for Delta. What are your point of views sir ?
Can thunder fully accomplish the roles of Mirages or there will be some shortcomings nonetheless ?
 

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In case of H-6, there will be good payload capacity but slow speed and easy detection by enemy.

bhai when PN can operate P3-C Orion, ATR-72 Sea Eagle MPA without questioning the "Large RCS and Slow Speed" of these assets then there MUST NOT be any issue to operate H-6, in bomber/anti ship role as it will not fly into the combat zone but would operate from standoff ranges which could vary 400-700 km from the Target and would avoid detection over sea as in sea India could not cover whole of the possible passage/ route with early warning setups on permanent grounds 24/7, here keep 3000+ Km range of H-6 in mind

So to counter the threat from H-6 India would be required to employ maximum number of assets in Air, Land and Sea along her coast line and beyond .....

One of the purpose of the suggestion of H-6 to force India to employ new assets and to disturb and disperse the existing assets of Indian Navy and Air Force and to shift the Focus and Pressure of Indian defence establishment from our Eastern border to their South, South Eastern borders and in deep Open sea
 

MystryMan

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We didn't get the F-6s till 1966. There were no F-6 available during 65 war. China did "gift" the first 60 in 1966. And we incorporated AIM-9b missiles on them.

Similarly in 2002, they urgently transferred 40 additional F-7PGs but no A-5s. Who would want A-5s in 2002 :p
I dont think that the PG variant is used by PLAAF. The ones we got were built for us not transferred.
 
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