Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

[AliYusuf]

Fellas, Lets stick to the topic and point here, Don't waste the crux of the matter into little skirmishes, have the tolerance and patience to accept people feedback. One only improves, when they acknowledge their faults, problems and fix em for the better.

Wasn't aware there was a skirmish.

 

[HRK]

Wasn't aware there was a skirmish.

he must have mistook our exchange of view point wrong

 

[AliYusuf]

he must have mistook our exchange of view point wrong

Seems like.

 

[Mastankhan]

Hi

the purpose of the post isto bring out different options available or manufactured to do a job.

different aircraft have different flight parameters, utility and function.

over the water missions would be most suitable for aircraft designed to fly low because they are extremely difficult to detect.

h6 would be good for long range mission with standoff type of weapons.

the h6 would be more difficult to induct because we dont have Any experience flying bombers.

the jh7 fits right in because we fly mirage 3/5’s fir strike missions.

the center pylon can be configured for a heavy 1500 kg missile just like on the su30.

as the strike aircraft would only be carrying extra fuel and missile, it will be way below its maximum load capacity, which in turn would give a substantial increase In combat radius.

 

[Mastankhan]

Again I was not going to purposed it in this thread but when @Mastankhan shaib gave the reference JH-7 I purposed H-6 to him to think and expand his idea on the same line of thought which he purposing from many years, as I find H-6 more beneficial in this role than JH-7

My proposition which was for Mastan khan was picked by other members like you as well so they start asking question and seeking clarifications, all what I did was just attempts to clarify and to make the idea more understandable for other

So intention was not for derailment of this thread and I did not purpose to induct H-6s in PAF but in PN as purely PN assets for NAVAL role

hi

you have done an excellent job.

if we present more options, it become difficult fir nay sayers to keep saying no.

all aircraft have their utility and role.

fir the decision makers, it is always easy to say no to keep their job easy and comfortable.

 

[Usama]

So, after the destruction of Mumbai how do we plan to wave Pakistani flag in Delhi. On a curious note - what kind of maximum damage can babur cruise missile inflict with a conventional (non-nuclear) warhead?

 

[Khafee]

So, after the destruction of Mumbai how do we plan to wave Pakistani flag in Delhi. On a curious note - what kind of maximum damage can babur cruise missile inflict with a conventional (non-nuclear) warhead?

What do you think, how would that happen?

 

[Mingle]

What do you think, how would that happen?

Zaid Hamid can tell us better about Hoisting flag over Dehli

 

[Mingle]

So, after the destruction of Mumbai how do we plan to wave Pakistani flag in Delhi. On a curious note - what kind of maximum damage can babur cruise missile inflict with a conventional (non-nuclear) warhead?

Take a little look at Saudi oil facility attack imagine attack over jamnager oil refinery???not one but multiple attacks?

 

[Mastankhan]

So, after the destruction of Mumbai how do we plan to wave Pakistani flag in Delhi. On a curious note - what kind of maximum damage can babur cruise missile inflict with a conventional (non-nuclear) warhead?

Hi,

Meray piyaray bachay----young man you don't even know what the deal is----we are not destroying mumbai---we just going to strike some tactical positions & areas---.

Just a couple of bangs so that the financial houses take their money and run out of the country---. That's all---. It would destroy india's economy.

That is why I wonder---why has the Paf not invested in aircraft that can target mumbai---. I have stated for a long time---there is treason somewhere in the Paf at the grass root levels---.

 

[MystryMan]

I said this on other fourm I will also say this here ….. If PAF want F-16s then , PAF have to end US monopoly on her , And how can PAF do that , First double down work on JF-17 block III , 2020 production line , and announce JF-17 NG , 2nd and most important buy one decent medium or heavy category bird with AESA Radar , birds like J-10 . J-15 , J-16 , SU-35 , EFT ……
The day USA see F-16s are not important for PAF (unfortunately 27th Feb prove US how important F-16s are for us) and USA lost her monopoly / control over PAF they will sell us F-16s with all the latest goodies , they even offer us F-35s to keep us (PAF) in USA camp …..
So if PAF want F-16s and F-35 in future , bring in JF-17 B-III as quick is possible , announce JF-17 NG , buy one new bird with AESA radar (J-10 , J-15 , J-16 , SU-35 , EFT)...

@Mastankhan used to say this on the other forum. Buy J-10 then u get AESA F-16 easily way back in 2015 I think.

Bhai why JH-7 now China is offering H-6 for export, literally 10-12 jet integrated it with 700km Babur missile and if possible we should try to modify our Abdali missile for air launch version with active radar seeker, this will give us a local alternative to imported CM-400 AKG but with much greater range and each H-6 would be capable to carry six such missiles.

This combination of platform and weapon package would play such a horrific role against Indian Navy fleet in open sea and against coastal defence installation of India that it would almost eliminate the need for any ship in destroyers category for PN for considerable time, it will increase our lethal reach of air power in sea warfare at least till horn of Africa in the south and till Kochi in the east which is HQ of Indian Navy southern command

In case of H-6, there will be good payload capacity but slow speed and easy detection by enemy.

 

[TomCat]

@Mastankhan used to say this on the other forum. Buy J-10 then u get AESA F-16 easily way back in 2015 I think.


In case of H-6, there will be good payload capacity but slow speed and easy detection by enemy.

See, the thing is, Bombers are supported by a heavy group of Air Superiorty and multirole fighters, all circling around a perimeter at different levels. Even EW is heavy in the area thanks to the bomber and some special EW optimized aircrafts circling the area. Now let me give an example with regards to India having a bomber and we countering it -
It’s practically gonna take a handful of at least 60+ JF-17s Block 2 to even get past by those 24-34 MKIs around a bomber, which aren’t sticked just a 100m around the bomber rather a long way from it just in case. You cannot get a lock on the bomber easily, only your luck can. Even then you have multiple engines on the bomber to be destroyed to successfully down it. This is where guns come in handy, you have a better chance to NOT waste missiles and get a direct (less effective) hit but need to do more. But ok, we are a defensive force in this scenerio, let’s say, we by any chance lose all the fighters we sent earlier, we sent in another herd, at the same time, different points of our border, we have bogeys coming in to distract our focus from a single op, Central Air Command loses focus, gets panic. The result will be a havoc, we lose half of airforce in a single op. Air defences are a good addition but in this scenerio, friendly fire probability will peak.

Let’s convert this scenerio to an offensive by PAF as all of you were suggesting earlier,
We send in H-6, with let’s say 36 Block 3, 12 J-15, (EW optimized special versions also in the fleet), H-6 being slow, slow downs the overall op, we get interceptions by Fulcrums, not a big task, we can get rid of them much easily given their current weak selves. But let’s say, rafale and MKIs come in, and an IN carrier group / Naval group capable of AD in the close proximity. This will be a let down. India being defensive force, will put in everything to save itself, have a huge fleet of MKIs, can send in 32 MKIs, along with 20 rafales, we are surely a goner. Now if planned in coordination with navy, we have 2 naval groups along with subs, they will try to take on the opposing naval groups by submariens and frigates/corvettes as well as provide us AD for fighters coming from far, AD will definitely prove worthy as a big fleet approaching unless jams our AD missiles, can definitely get hit, if not first, then the second jet thanks to being a group.

Our H-6 and the group is still a longway, we are short of supporting fighters. In the end, we lose. Even if H-6 manages to pull off its targets, it won’t return.

Result - Loss of almost half of our capable fleet. The bigger loss would be our competent pilots who spent 15-20+ years perfecting their abilities just to be killed in a poorly planned, supportless op due to us being a tiny Airforce with hardly 300 modern fighters. For an op like this, we need to be an AirForce with at least 800-1000 4++ Gen fighters but that as well requires us to becomes an offensive force, blue water navy which is not the case right now. Loss in this op demoralize our pilots, military alltogether, gives a big boost in morale to the adversary, they try to do mischief through land, we give them a SERIOUS NUCLEAR THREAT. World Powers intervene in the situation, put forward conditions which might not be suitable for us. Loss-Loss


Secondly, there is a reason some of you above (can’t remember) have been pointing out the fact that only 3 countries in the world have used /are able to use bombers efficiently and what do we see here common in all of them? A huge gigantic airforce, a loss of 80-100 fighters might just feel like a scratch to their might.

As for H-6 / TU-160 compared to B-2, they are more easy to be shot down, exposed engines, as compared to B-2, B-2, a masterpiece, exceptional design, stealthy, hard to get a lock on on the engines. Having H-6 and related ops to H-6 would only destroy us unless in time we become a formidble force with 1000+ fighters, having 5th gen fighters such as J-20 as well as 4++ such as Block 3, Vipers, J-10C, J-15, J-16 or EFT. That’s why 5Th gen is a game changers, They never know when you are coming, you take then down, go back as if no one knew (interceptions happen but you knock them out in BVR as you have advantage of extremely low RCS) .

HENCE, why JH-7s would play better for us -
~ 8 12 JH7 coupled with AS FIGHTERS can definitely achieve the above goal faster with less chances of losses
~ Using JH-7 instead of H-6 is something PAF are ready to do at expertise level anytime sooner, PAF IS aware of it as a bombing mission, with supporting fighters, the pace, how to manage. H-6 type of missions are something PAF isn’t familiar with, would take at least 2035-40 to become as powerful to handle such missions.
~ Truely hypothetical, but i believe our air command isn’t capable to handle such “H-6 type of situation above” right now with no prior experience.

Here below is the engine of H-6 and TU-160

COMPARE THEM WITH B-2

 

[TomCat]

See, the thing is, Bombers are supported by a heavy group of Air Superiorty and multirole fighters, all circling around a perimeter at different levels. Even EW is heavy in the area thanks to the bomber and some special EW optimized aircrafts circling the area. Now let me give an example with regards to India having a bomber and we countering it -
It’s practically gonna take a handful of at least 60+ JF-17s Block 2 to even get past by those 24-34 MKIs around a bomber, which aren’t sticked just a 100m around the bomber rather a long way from it just in case. You cannot get a lock on the bomber easily, only your luck can. Even then you have multiple engines on the bomber to be destroyed to successfully down it. This is where guns come in handy, you have a better chance to NOT waste missiles and get a direct (less effective) hit but need to do more. But ok, we are a defensive force in this scenerio, let’s say, we by any chance lose all the fighters we sent earlier, we sent in another herd, at the same time, different points of our border, we have bogeys coming in to distract our focus from a single op, Central Air Command loses focus, gets panic. The result will be a havoc, we lose half of airforce in a single op. Air defences are a good addition but in this scenerio, friendly fire probability will peak.

Let’s convert this scenerio to an offensive by PAF as all of you were suggesting earlier,
We send in H-6, with let’s say 36 Block 3, 12 J-15, (EW optimized special versions also in the fleet), H-6 being slow, slow downs the overall op, we get interceptions by Fulcrums, not a big task, we can get rid of them much easily given their current weak selves. But let’s say, rafale and MKIs come in, and an IN carrier group / Naval group capable of AD in the close proximity. This will be a let down. India being defensive force, will put in everything to save itself, have a huge fleet of MKIs, can send in 32 MKIs, along with 20 rafales, we are surely a goner. Now if planned in coordination with navy, we have 2 naval groups along with subs, they will try to take on the opposing naval groups by submariens and frigates/corvettes as well as provide us AD for fighters coming from far, AD will definitely prove worthy as a big fleet approaching unless jams our AD missiles, can definitely get hit, if not first, then the second jet thanks to being a group.

Our H-6 and the group is still a longway, we are short of supporting fighters. In the end, we lose. Even if H-6 manages to pull off its targets, it won’t return.

Result - Loss of almost half of our capable fleet. The bigger loss would be our competent pilots who spent 15-20+ years perfecting their abilities just to be killed in a poorly planned, supportless op due to us being a tiny Airforce with hardly 300 modern fighters. For an op like this, we need to be an AirForce with at least 800-1000 4++ Gen fighters but that as well requires us to becomes an offensive force, blue water navy which is not the case right now. Loss in this op demoralize our pilots, military alltogether, gives a big boost in morale to the adversary, they try to do mischief through land, we give them a SERIOUS NUCLEAR THREAT. World Powers intervene in the situation, put forward conditions which might not be suitable for us. Loss-Loss


Secondly, there is a reason some of you above (can’t remember) have been pointing out the fact that only 3 countries in the world have used /are able to use bombers efficiently and what do we see here common in all of them? A huge gigantic airforce, a loss of 80-100 fighters might just feel like a scratch to their might.

As for H-6 / TU-160 compared to B-2, they are more easy to be shot down, exposed engines, as compared to B-2, B-2, a masterpiece, exceptional design, stealthy, hard to get a lock on on the engines. Having H-6 and related ops to H-6 would only destroy us unless in time we become a formidble force with 1000+ fighters, having 5th gen fighters such as J-20 as well as 4++ such as Block 3, Vipers, J-10C, J-15, J-16 or EFT. That’s why 5Th gen is a game changers, They never know when you are coming, you take then down, go back as if no one knew (interceptions happen but you knock them out in BVR as you have advantage of extremely low RCS) .

Here below is the engine of H-6 and TU-160
View attachment 11383View attachment 11384
COMPARE THEM WITH B-2

View attachment 11385View attachment 11386

I would love to hear from your POV on the above hypothesis @Khafee @Signalian @Mangus Ortus Novem @Mastankhan @AliYusuf and others

 

[AliYusuf]

See, the thing is, Bombers are supported by a heavy group of Air Superiorty and multirole fighters, all circling around a perimeter at different levels. Even EW is heavy in the area thanks to the bomber and some special EW optimized aircrafts circling the area. Now let me give an example with regards to India having a bomber and we countering it -
It’s practically gonna take a handful of at least 60+ JF-17s Block 2 to even get past by those 24-34 MKIs around a bomber, which aren’t sticked just a 100m around the bomber rather a long way from it just in case. You cannot get a lock on the bomber easily, only your luck can. Even then you have multiple engines on the bomber to be destroyed to successfully down it. This is where guns come in handy, you have a better chance to NOT waste missiles and get a direct (less effective) hit but need to do more. But ok, we are a defensive force in this scenerio, let’s say, we by any chance lose all the fighters we sent earlier, we sent in another herd, at the same time, different points of our border, we have bogeys coming in to distract our focus from a single op, Central Air Command loses focus, gets panic. The result will be a havoc, we lose half of airforce in a single op. Air defences are a good addition but in this scenerio, friendly fire probability will peak.

Let’s convert this scenerio to an offensive by PAF as all of you were suggesting earlier,
We send in H-6, with let’s say 36 Block 3, 12 J-15, (EW optimized special versions also in the fleet), H-6 being slow, slow downs the overall op, we get interceptions by Fulcrums, not a big task, we can get rid of them much easily given their current weak selves. But let’s say, rafale and MKIs come in, and an IN carrier group / Naval group capable of AD in the close proximity. This will be a let down. India being defensive force, will put in everything to save itself, have a huge fleet of MKIs, can send in 32 MKIs, along with 20 rafales, we are surely a goner. Now if planned in coordination with navy, we have 2 naval groups along with subs, they will try to take on the opposing naval groups by submariens and frigates/corvettes as well as provide us AD for fighters coming from far, AD will definitely prove worthy as a big fleet approaching unless jams our AD missiles, can definitely get hit, if not first, then the second jet thanks to being a group.

Our H-6 and the group is still a longway, we are short of supporting fighters. In the end, we lose. Even if H-6 manages to pull off its targets, it won’t return.

Result - Loss of almost half of our capable fleet. The bigger loss would be our competent pilots who spent 15-20+ years perfecting their abilities just to be killed in a poorly planned, supportless op due to us being a tiny Airforce with hardly 300 modern fighters. For an op like this, we need to be an AirForce with at least 800-1000 4++ Gen fighters but that as well requires us to becomes an offensive force, blue water navy which is not the case right now. Loss in this op demoralize our pilots, military alltogether, gives a big boost in morale to the adversary, they try to do mischief through land, we give them a SERIOUS NUCLEAR THREAT. World Powers intervene in the situation, put forward conditions which might not be suitable for us. Loss-Loss


Secondly, there is a reason some of you above (can’t remember) have been pointing out the fact that only 3 countries in the world have used /are able to use bombers efficiently and what do we see here common in all of them? A huge gigantic airforce, a loss of 80-100 fighters might just feel like a scratch to their might.

As for H-6 / TU-160 compared to B-2, they are more easy to be shot down, exposed engines, as compared to B-2, B-2, a masterpiece, exceptional design, stealthy, hard to get a lock on on the engines. Having H-6 and related ops to H-6 would only destroy us unless in time we become a formidble force with 1000+ fighters, having 5th gen fighters such as J-20 as well as 4++ such as Block 3, Vipers, J-10C, J-15, J-16 or EFT. That’s why 5Th gen is a game changers, They never know when you are coming, you take then down, go back as if no one knew (interceptions happen but you knock them out in BVR as you have advantage of extremely low RCS) .

Here below is the engine of H-6 and TU-160
View attachment 11383View attachment 11384
COMPARE THEM WITH B-2

View attachment 11385View attachment 11386

The H-6 and it's support group of A2A & EW/SEAD assets are presumably spared (detection and/or challenge) by virtue of the long range launch of the H-6's tactical and strategic SOWs.

At least that is the game plan.

Unfortunately, the downside is that ...

• The tactical/strategic SOW's might get taken out by the S-400 and the objective may not get achieved.
• Will take a leap in support fleet strength, induct newer air to surface missile assets and a considerable leap in establishment and operating costs to pull this off.
• Neither the PAF nor the PN have any experience in using air assets of this sort, hence a longer learning/adaptation curve.

Hence, only USA, Russia and China continue to operate assets of the H-6 class or thereabouts.

I feel the Chinese modernized flankers and can do the job and as per @Khafee Sahib acquisition MOU's for their acquisition have been made ... so such missions can become very much possible.

Also if we can acquire JH-7AII, cheaply, to supplement the newly acquired sino flankers with numbers ... we can have an overall capability option that is less costly and with lesser extent of the learning and the adaption curve and lesser cost of doing all this.

But then again, that is just my opinion.

 

[TomCat]

The H-6 and it's support group of A2A & EW/SEAD assets are presumably spared (detection and/or challenge) by virtue of the long range launch of the H-6's tactical and strategic SOWs.

Hi,
Thanks for pointing out,
As I didn’t take this into consideration of SOWs,
If we have to laucnh SOWs then why consider the long range H-6 in the first place when the target is just 400-500km away. Send in JH7s with J-15s and ZDK-03, same route as Sir Khafee pointed out in the pic earlier, get refuelled, launch 25 RAADs , get back home, watch the TV. Simple theory. Why even bother H-6, a death wish. Normally, as per my knowledge, SOWs when launched in quantities less than 5-8, have an overall chance to be intercepted. A good number will be 15, but why bother another 10 when already sending in 15 Raads. S-400, Or Pantsir type of systems can intercept such threats. So try to maximise the efficiency with overlooking the costs. “If you have less resources, then use the existing resources to their best, basic goal is nothing less than success”