Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72 | Page 83 | World Defense

Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

MystryMan

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bhai when PN can operate P3-C Orion, ATR-72 Sea Eagle MPA without questioning the "Large RCS and Slow Speed" of these assets then there MUST NOT be any issue to operate H-6, in bomber/anti ship role as it will not fly into the combat zone but would operate from standoff ranges which could vary 400-700 km from the Target and would avoid detection over sea as in sea India could not cover whole of the possible passage/ route with early warning setups on permanent grounds 24/7, here keep 3000+ Km range of H-6 in mind

So to counter the threat from H-6 India would be required to employ maximum number of assets in Air, Land and Sea along her coast line and beyond .....

One of the purpose of the suggestion of H-6 to force India to employ new assets and to disturb and disperse the existing assets of Indian Navy and Air Force and to shift the Focus and Pressure of Indian defence establishment from our Eastern border to their South, South Eastern borders and in deep Open sea
You make good points. But where to begin with. I think the best start would be a combo of J-15 and the latest JH-7AII and then move onto something bigger with Jet engines.
 

AliYusuf

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bhai when PN can operate P3-C Orion, ATR-72 Sea Eagle MPA without questioning the "Large RCS and Slow Speed" of these assets then there MUST NOT be any issue to operate H-6, in bomber/anti ship role as it will not fly into the combat zone but would operate from standoff ranges which could vary 400-700 km from the Target and would avoid detection over sea as in sea India could not cover whole of the possible passage/ route with early warning setups on permanent grounds 24/7, here keep 3000+ Km range of H-6 in mind
Same argument partially holds true for our AWACS, albeit over land. But IMHO the difference between a surveillance aircraft (i.e. an AWAC or an MPA) and a strategic strike weapon like an H-6 is that former primarily operate in protected air space to provide surveillance and detection within territorial land and water ... where as the latter i.e. the H-6 is an offensive weapon which cannot always operate from protected air space due to the very nature of it's mission.

Also most such surveillance platforms can detect targets at well over 300 KM. Giving them ample warning time to take precautionary measures.
 
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TomCat

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You make good points. But where to begin with. I think the best start would be a combo of J-15 and the latest JH-7AII and then move onto something bigger with Jet engines.
Exactly, why operate a big, slow truck carrying small parcels when we can send same parcels in many small rickshaws with fire power and high Jamming capabilities. Like i mentioned above, why even think of bombers when we can use Fighters like JH-7s which are 'MISSILE TRUCKS' with high performing radars and EW Capabilities which is solely built for these purposes and offers advantage of speed, agility. Instead of 1 H-6, we can use 3 JH-7E (JH-7AII). If PAF/PN decides something like this, it would be a major addition to navy in the Naval acquisitions and upgradation. Not to mention, recent acquisitions by Navy alone are amazing, it will get it's required power. We will have 4 Naval groups inshaAllah with Air arm having ability to completely wipe out South-Western IN groups in minutes.
 

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See, the thing is, Bombers are supported by a heavy group of Air Superiorty and multirole fighters, all circling around a perimeter at different levels. Even EW is heavy in the area thanks to the bomber and some special EW optimized aircrafts circling the area. Now let me give an example with regards to India having a bomber and we countering it -
It’s practically gonna take a handful of at least 60+ JF-17s Block 2 to even get past by those 24-34 MKIs around a bomber, which aren’t sticked just a 100m around the bomber rather a long way from it just in case. You cannot get a lock on the bomber easily, only your luck can. Even then you have multiple engines on the bomber to be destroyed to successfully down it. This is where guns come in handy, you have a better chance to NOT waste missiles and get a direct (less effective) hit but need to do more. But ok, we are a defensive force in this scenerio, let’s say, we by any chance lose all the fighters we sent earlier, we sent in another herd, at the same time, different points of our border, we have bogeys coming in to distract our focus from a single op, Central Air Command loses focus, gets panic. The result will be a havoc, we lose half of airforce in a single op. Air defences are a good addition but in this scenerio, friendly fire probability will peak.

Let’s convert this scenerio to an offensive by PAF as all of you were suggesting earlier,
We send in H-6, with let’s say 36 Block 3, 12 J-15, (EW optimized special versions also in the fleet), H-6 being slow, slow downs the overall op, we get interceptions by Fulcrums, not a big task, we can get rid of them much easily given their current weak selves. But let’s say, rafale and MKIs come in, and an IN carrier group / Naval group capable of AD in the close proximity. This will be a let down. India being defensive force, will put in everything to save itself, have a huge fleet of MKIs, can send in 32 MKIs, along with 20 rafales, we are surely a goner. Now if planned in coordination with navy, we have 2 naval groups along with subs, they will try to take on the opposing naval groups by submariens and frigates/corvettes as well as provide us AD for fighters coming from far, AD will definitely prove worthy as a big fleet approaching unless jams our AD missiles, can definitely get hit, if not first, then the second jet thanks to being a group.

Our H-6 and the group is still a longway, we are short of supporting fighters. In the end, we lose. Even if H-6 manages to pull off its targets, it won’t return.

Result - Loss of almost half of our capable fleet. The bigger loss would be our competent pilots who spent 15-20+ years perfecting their abilities just to be killed in a poorly planned, supportless op due to us being a tiny Airforce with hardly 300 modern fighters. For an op like this, we need to be an AirForce with at least 800-1000 4++ Gen fighters but that as well requires us to becomes an offensive force, blue water navy which is not the case right now. Loss in this op demoralize our pilots, military alltogether, gives a big boost in morale to the adversary, they try to do mischief through land, we give them a SERIOUS NUCLEAR THREAT. World Powers intervene in the situation, put forward conditions which might not be suitable for us. Loss-Loss


Secondly, there is a reason some of you above (can’t remember) have been pointing out the fact that only 3 countries in the world have used /are able to use bombers efficiently and what do we see here common in all of them? A huge gigantic airforce, a loss of 80-100 fighters might just feel like a scratch to their might.

As for H-6 / TU-160 compared to B-2, they are more easy to be shot down, exposed engines, as compared to B-2, B-2, a masterpiece, exceptional design, stealthy, hard to get a lock on on the engines. Having H-6 and related ops to H-6 would only destroy us unless in time we become a formidble force with 1000+ fighters, having 5th gen fighters such as J-20 as well as 4++ such as Block 3, Vipers, J-10C, J-15, J-16 or EFT. That’s why 5Th gen is a game changers, They never know when you are coming, you take then down, go back as if no one knew (interceptions happen but you knock them out in BVR as you have advantage of extremely low RCS) .

HENCE, why JH-7s would play better for us -
~ 8 12 JH7 coupled with AS FIGHTERS can definitely achieve the above goal faster with less chances of losses
~ Using JH-7 instead of H-6 is something PAF are ready to do at expertise level anytime sooner, PAF IS aware of it as a bombing mission, with supporting fighters, the pace, how to manage. H-6 type of missions are something PAF isn’t familiar with, would take at least 2035-40 to become as powerful to handle such missions.
~ Truely hypothetical, but i believe our air command isn’t capable to handle such “H-6 type of situation above” right now with no prior experience.

Here below is the engine of H-6 and TU-160
View attachment 11383View attachment 11384
COMPARE THEM WITH B-2

View attachment 11385View attachment 11386
Sorry to say you just mistook whole of the suggestion, so allow me restate that
- I am not suggesting Bombing Run over Land which B-52 or B-2 perform

- I am suggesting to Target in open sea and at Coastal belt of Indian South and South East with Long Range Precision Guided Stand Of Weapons such as Cruise Missiles

- Therefore H-6 would not require escort of fleet of Fighter Jets in most of the parts of Its mission as No Indian Jet which will takeoff from bases at Indian Coast would be able to perform Long Duration CAP mission or even Aerial engagement at 1500-2000 KM away for this consult the Indian Ocean map and the available capability to Indian Navy and Air Force

- The best chance Indian Air force could get to hit H-6 would be near Pakistani coastal region or near to it , once it fly away at the distance of 800-900 KM from Pakistani coast it will be out of danger of Indian Aerial assets, as it will be very difficult for India to put constant long duration CAP at 800-900 KM ranges from the the nearest Indian Air fields of Buj and Jamnagar without constant support assets such as aerial Refuel Tankers
Buj Airfield.JPG

Jamnagar.JPG


- But for us it will be relatively easy to operate as this is near to our coast and PAF could target IAF aerial Tanker and IN ships at that zone, so the PAF responsibility will remain limited to the Geographical zones as it currently have

- Now consider H-6 flying parallel to Indian coastline at a distance of 900-1000 KM, here consider how many Aerial assets would be constantly required to cover the entire coast of India both Aerial and SAM to intercept H-6 or the cruise missiles which it will launch .... ???
 

AliYusuf

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Sorry to say you just mistook whole of the suggestion, so allow me restate that
- I am not suggesting Bombing Run over Land which B-52 or B-2 perform

- I am suggesting to Target in open sea and at Coastal belt of Indian South and South East with Long Range Precision Guided Stand Of Weapons such as Cruise Missiles

- Therefore H-6 would not require escort of fleet of Fighter Jets in most of the parts of Its mission as No Indian Jet which will takeoff from bases at Indian Coast would be able to perform Long Duration CAP mission or even Aerial engagement at 1500-2000 KM away for this consult the Indian Ocean map and the available capability to Indian Navy and Air Force

- The best chance Indian Air force could get to hit H-6 would be near Pakistani coastal region or near to it , once it fly away at the distance of 800-900 KM from Pakistani coast it will be out of danger of Indian Aerial assets, as it will be very difficult for India to put constant long duration CAP at 800-900 KM ranges from the the nearest Indian Air fields of Buj and Jamnagar without constant support assets such as aerial Refuel Tankers
View attachment 11388
View attachment 11387

- But for us it will be relatively easy to operate as this is near to our coast and PAF could target IAF aerial Tanker and IN ships at that zone, so the PAF responsibility will remain limited to the Geographical zones as it currently have

- Now consider H-6 flying parallel to Indian coastline at a distance of 900-1000 KM, here consider how many Aerial assets would be constantly required to cover the entire coast of India both Aerial and SAM to intercept H-6 or the cruise missiles which it will launch .... ???
Won't that missile be detected? What are the downsides of just firing that missile over from mainland Pakistan i.e. surface to surface?
 

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H-6 is that former primarily operate in protected air space to provide surveillance and detection within territorial land and water ... where as the latter i.e. the H-6 is an offensive weapon which cannot always operate from protected air space due to the very nature of it's mission.
it require protection only in near sea region after that sea is open for the utilisation in favour of the party with aggressive posture .... and If you note I am from the beginning suggesting to use H-6 aggressively
 

AliYusuf

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it require protection only in near sea region after that sea is open for the utilisation in favour of the party with aggressive posture .... and If you note I am from the beginning suggesting to use H-6 aggressively
I commented to your response to someone else that ...
"bhai when PN can operate P3-C Orion, ATR-72 Sea Eagle MPA without questioning the "Large RCS and Slow Speed" of these assets then there MUST NOT be any issue to operate H-6".

On which I responded to you that ...
"Same argument partially holds true for our AWACS, albeit over land. But IMHO the difference between a surveillance aircraft (i.e. an AWAC or an MPA) and a strategic strike weapon like an H-6 is that former primarily operate in protected air space to provide surveillance and detection within territorial land and water ... where as the latter i.e. the H-6 is an offensive weapon which cannot always operate from protected air space due to the very nature of it's mission.

Also most such surveillance platforms can detect targets at well over 300 KM. Giving them ample warning time to take precautionary measures
".


I don't think H-6 is primarily meant for an enemy who is your next door neighbor. If we are to use a 1000km misslile ... what are the pitfalls of firing the same missile from the mainland Paksitan?
 

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Won't that missile be detected? What are the downsides of just firing that missile over from mainland Pakistan i.e. surface to surface?
obviously some of the missiles would get intercepted ..... but what if we launch 30-36 missiles at the same target some are bound to pass through .... now imagine PN launching these type of saturation attacks on two or three different locations a day .....??

what will be chances that India would be able to intercept all ....??

Again how many assets in Air, Land and Sea would be required at the 2000+ KM coastline on Indian south and southeastern coast to defend and intercept .....???

- This will force India to to disperse here assets to the defence of those regions
- So even if all the missiles are intercepted at Indian coast, we will have the advantage of less number of Indian assets at our Eastern borders
- And alternatively we can target India vessels in open sea as compensation of the interception of our attack on Indian coast

its will be a win win situation for PN in any case

Secondly you are considering only coastal targets while same scenario can be applied to Indian Naval ships as well as I said earlier I am not suggesting the use of H-6 as bomber but a Precision Hunter in Offensive Role
 

AliYusuf

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Again how many assets in Air, Land and Sea would be required at the 2000+ KM coastline on Indian south and southeastern coast to defend and intercept .....???

- This will force India to to disperse here assets to the defence of those regions
- So even if all the missiles are intercepted at Indian coast, we will have the advantage of less number of Indian assets at our Eastern borders
- And alternatively we can target India vessels in open sea as compensation of the interception of our attack on Indian coast

its will be a win win situation for PN in any case
That would be a good flexibility to have. But the thing is, H-6 operations and required support assets and integration of long range air launched munitions would incur a cost that would be prohibitively expensive for us for now.
 

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I don't think H-6 is primarily meant for an enemy who is your next door neighbor.
but that next door enemy have a land mass three time of our country and most of the parts of India in her south and South east are relatively secure from us as we could only reach to those areas only with Ballistic Missiles or our by submarines
If we are to use a 1000km misslile ... what are the pitfalls of firing the same missile from the mainland Paksitan?
that 1000 Km range missile OR even our longest range missile of 2,750 km does not shift the focus of Indian forces from our eastern border to their south.

These missile does not force Indian Navy or Air Force to defend the south India, but attract counter measures against these system at our Eastern border

employment of H-6

- Would Force India to install at least 4 regiments of S-400 class SAM for the defence of Economic and Defence centres at her coastal belt, what is the current cost of S-400 system ...???

- Will force IAF to deploy 100s of fighter jets to defend coastal belt of 2000+ KM till south and south east, I may be wrong but currently only two sqd. of Su-30MKI are deployed in South India and few "Tejas jets" so you can understand how comfortable they feel about the defence of their Southern Coast

- It will force India Navy to constantly Operate at least two Air Craft carrier groups in two different Zones which mean IN will be required to have more than two carrier groups

- It will force India to either forgo their dream of enforcing Naval blockade of Pakistan or to increase her Navy at least 3 times

So:
Can India do this in short or in medium term .... ???
My answer is NO .....

Will it cost them fortune .... ???
My answer is YES

- It will force India to increase here Air Force for the defence of South If they want to maintain same level of Presence and Pressure against us at our Eastern Border.

How many AWAC India Operate in Coastal Belt specially in South .... ??

How many Aerial Tankers Does India operate .... ???

So the question is :
Does any our current system cause such effects over India .... ???
My answer is again NO .....

So these are the summarise positive arguments in favour of H-6 ......
 
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HRK

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That would be a good flexibility to have. But the thing is, H-6 operations and required support assets and integration of long range air launched munitions would incur a cost that would be prohibitively expensive for us for now.
It should cost something 150-180 million per H-6 so 10-12 H-6, on the higher side all 12 will cost us $2.1 billion, we already have Cruise missiles available with us so integration may cost another $100-150 million max, final package should not cost us more then $2.5 billion but it will force India to spend tens of billion $ on her Navy, Air force and for the Air defence of her coastal region .....
 
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AliYusuf

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It should cost something 150-180 million per H-6 so 10-12 H-6, on the higher side all 12 will cost us $2.1 billion, we already have Cruise missiles available with us so integration may cost another $100-150 million max, final package should not cost us more then $2.5 billion but it will force India to spend tens of billion $ on her Navy, Air force and for the Air defence of her coastal region .....
Although Pakistan would be allocating funds for an effective airborne strike element on the maritime scenario, I am almost certain that it would be nothing other than a heavy twin engined multirole fighter. So anything else would be an added bonus. And I am highly skeptical that it will be what you are suggesting as PAF and PN will not likely be spending so much on such one trick ponies (albeit very effective) like the H-6.
 
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