Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72 | Page 185 | World Defense

Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

Gripen9

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He is the guy on PDF.
36 Rafales cost them $9B
44 will be around the same ~ $10B or slightly less since Capital expense has been sunk in. Do they have that kinda $$$ laying about post COVID?
What does fast track mean, are they buying off the shelf with no ToT or any other negotiated offset? or even better getting from French Airforce existing stock :)
 
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Armchair

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You may be right but my point is india will procure more French Rafale rather than any US Jett

Let's see. One factor in favor of India not getting US jets, is that the US is busy with elections in November. Trump is very likely going to win (according to the best models out there), but it will be a tough contest. If Trump has his eyes distracted elsewhere, there is a chance that India won't be able to make a deal.

However, post election, all bets are off. The US, Israel and India are natural allies, both against China and Muslims in general. The US not giving India F-35s is like China not giving Pakistan JF-17s.

The West has a long history of using India to overcome China going back 200 years of successful policy.
 

Gripen9

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Let's see. One factor in favor of India not getting US jets, is that the US is busy with elections in November. Trump is very likely going to win (according to the best models out there), but it will be a tough contest. If Trump has his eyes distracted elsewhere, there is a chance that India won't be able to make a deal.

However, post election, all bets are off. The US, Israel and India are natural allies, both against China and Muslims in general. The US not giving India F-35s is like China not giving Pakistan JF-17s.

The West has a long history of using India to overcome China going back 200 years of successful policy.
F-35 and JF17 are not the same. Wrong analogy.
 

Armchair

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F-35 and JF17 are not the same. Wrong analogy.

Jf-17 is China's export jet, F-35s are US export jets. For its allies. India is a natural ally. You can change the analogy to J-35 or J-10 if you like, both jets are available to Pakistan, if they want it.
 

Gripen9

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Jf-17 is China's export jet, F-35s are US export jets. For its allies. India is a natural ally. You can change the analogy to J-35 or J-10 if you like, both jets are available to Pakistan, if they want it.
JF-17 is a collaboration between Pakistan & China with us providing the initial investment. It is a 4th gen aircraft.
F-35 is a 5th gen aircraft that only a select set of nations currently have access to. Signing up for F-35 means you stay on the right side of CATSAA.
If US can yank Turkey - a NATO member and a bulwark against Russia from the F-35 program, then providing F-35 to India along with it having S-400 would be very hard to justify.

An Apt analogy would have been China denying Pakistan J-31. J-31 is soemwhat comparable to F-35.
 

Armchair

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JF-17 is a collaboration between Pakistan & China with us providing the initial investment. It is a 4th gen aircraft.
F-35 is a 5th gen aircraft that only a select set of nations currently have access to. Signing up for F-35 means you stay on the right side of CATSAA.
If US can yank Turkey - a NATO member and a bulwark against Russia from the F-35 program, then providing F-35 to India along with it having S-400 would be very hard to justify.

An Apt analogy would have been China denying Pakistan J-31. J-31 is soemwhat comparable to F-35.

Collaboration or not, without China there would be no JF-17. Not sure how difference of 4th or 5th generation is going to impact a strategic discourse. These are their export jets for their allies. You are either an ally or you are not.

CATSAA is selectively applied to those who they think are not their allies but pretending to be - like Turkey or countries like Pakistan. Greek S-300s are not precluding them from purchasing F-35s. You are getting stuck in arguments that make no practical real politik sense.

The US is not a blind arbiter of fairness and justice like the statue of liberty, applying CAATSA fairly to the world as a guiding light. That would be a naive understanding of US policy, past present or future.

The US is a smart cookie. It knows what it wants, and gets it done. It makes rules and regulations to make it fit. The rules and regulations it makes (such as CAATSA) are designed to fulfill what it wants.

It is not like Pakistan - that makes decisions on what US policy makers say and then cry when they don't get it their way, in one case even after paying for it. Someday Pakistani policy makers will learn that the world isn't a fair place and the US is not the Fairy God Mother.

What does US want? It wants to contain China. Once we are able to wrap our head on that, everything becomes clear.
 

Gripen9

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Collaboration or not, without China there would be no JF-17. Not sure how difference of 4th or 5th generation is going to impact a strategic discourse. These are their export jets for their allies. You are either an ally or you are not.

CATSAA is selectively applied to those who they think are not their allies but pretending to be - like Turkey or countries like Pakistan. Greek S-300s are not precluding them from purchasing F-35s. You are getting stuck in arguments that make no practical real politik sense.

The US is not a blind arbiter of fairness and justice like the statue of liberty, applying CAATSA fairly to the world as a guiding light. That would be a naive understanding of US policy, past present or future.

The US is a smart cookie. It knows what it wants, and gets it done. It makes rules and regulations to make it fit. The rules and regulations it makes (such as CAATSA) are designed to fulfill what it wants.

It is not like Pakistan - that makes decisions on what US policy makers say and then cry when they don't get it their way, in one case even after paying for it. Someday Pakistani policy makers will learn that the world isn't a fair place and the US is not the Fairy God Mother.

What does US want? It wants to contain China. Once we are able to wrap our head on that, everything becomes clear.

I would beg to disagree. Let's move on. Since we do not see eye to eye and the thread is being derailed.
 

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@Khafee india inducting 44 more Rafales as I predicted read they are on fast track let's see
Don't take rumors too seriously... especially coming from Indian sources. Even their "reported news" is often dubious let alone rumors. Their bureaucracy and procurement process is notoriously slow and covid19 is wreaking havoc on Indian economy...not to mention that Rafale is very expensive. Let's just wait and see.
 

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That’s not a source, come on. A tweet from an ordinary joe, average aviation enthusiast, not even an established military journalist - pretty much means nothing.
 

Cookie Monster

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You may be right but my point is india will procure more French Rafale rather than any US Jett
Ideally for any airforce it makes more sense to stick with the type of jets they are already operating(if they fulfill the roles as intended)...rather than creating an amalgamation of many different types. So they may want to go for more Rafales. However due to economic slowdown...and the exorbitant costs of the jet...
...in addition to lots of pressure from US and Boeing making a lot of headway in India...it would be a challenge for them to procure Rafales. They may be pressured to consider F18...and if they still stick with Rafale...it will take a ton of money to build a sizable fleet.
 

Gripen9

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Ideally for any airforce it makes more sense to stick with the type of jets they are already operating(if they fulfill the roles as intended)...rather than creating an amalgamation of many different types. So they may want to go for more Rafales. However due to economic slowdown...and the exorbitant costs of the jet...
...in addition to lots of pressure from US and Boeing making a lot of headway in India...it would be a challenge for them to procure Rafales. They may be pressured to consider F18...and if they still stick with Rafale...it will take a ton of money to build a sizable fleet.
unless you are the Egyptian Airforce.
Rafale
Mig29/35
SU35
And now potentially Typhoons!
 

Cookie Monster

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unless you are the Egyptian Airforce.
Rafale
Mig29/35
SU35
And now potentially Typhoons!
Yeah it's very dumb on their part to do that. With a country like Qatar it's at least understandable...and it kinda works for them to get the backing of powerful countries by shoving a few billion down in each one's pockets. In case of Egypt it's gonna bite them in their behind one day if they keep that up.
 

Cookie Monster

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You may be right but my point is india will procure more French Rafale rather than any US Jett
IMO it would be ideal if they do that. It means less bang for their buck(Rafale being expensive). No doubt there will be massive kickbacks involved...which will further squander the money. The cherry on top would be that they would piss off US(and Trump). Then once they are operating a sizable quantity of Rafales...the French will have them by the balls...squeezing them dry with expensive maintenance, spares, and any further upgrades.

In contrast if they were to buckle under US pressure...and let's say IN goes for F18s rather than naval Rafale. In that case the only good outcome for Pak is that it creates further hodge podge of fighter jets...rather than creating synergy between IAF and IN. The bad news would be a closer India/US partnership and the fact that F18(latest variant) is a very formidable jet. So it would be my preference that India sticks with Rafale.
 
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Counter-Errorist

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IMO it would be ideal if they do that. It means less bang for their buck(Rafale being expensive). No doubt their will be massive kickbacks involved...which will further squander the money. The cherry on top would be that they would piss off US(and Trump). Then once they are operating a sizable quantity of Rafales...the French will have them by the balls...squeezing them dry with expensive maintenance, spares, and any further upgrades.

In contrast if they were to buckle under US pressure...and let's say IN goes for F18s rather than naval Rafale. In that case the only good outcome for Pak is that it creates further hodge podge of fighter jets...rather than creating synergy between IAF and IN. The bad news would be a closer India/US partnership and the fact that F18(latest variant) is a very formidable jet. So it would be my preference that India sticks with Rafale.
India buys a lot of hardware from the US even if they didn't opt for any jets - Apaches, Chinooks, Sea Hawks, IADWS and M777s.
 
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