7th grader shoots self at Ohio middle school

[Khafee]

7th grader shoots self at Ohio middle school
By Ray Downs
Feb. 21, 2018

Feb. 21 (UPI) -- A 7th grade student in Ohio is in critical condition after shooting himself in his school's bathroom, police said Tuesday.

The incident occurred at around 7:50 a.m. Tuesday morning at Jackson Memorial Middle School in Jackson Township, located north of Canton. Jackson Township Police Chief Mark Brink said the student, whose name has not been released, was armed with a .22-caliber long rifle, Cleveland.com reported.

Officials said they are trying to determine if the shooting was
"That is still being determined, but suicide with a long rifle is complicated and not too common," Stark County Sheriff George Maier told The Columbus Dispatch.

The student was taken to a nearby hospital for treatment. Details of his self-inflicted would were not released at this time.
The shooting set of a panic at the school as students, teachers and parents across the country are still reeling by the latest mass school shooting that killed 17 people in Parkland, Fla. last week.

"That Florida shooting just happened, and you keep thinking about your kid," Daniela Biller, a parent of three at the school, told the Dispatch. "I just bawled my eyes out watching the Florida shooting and thinking about what if it was my kids."

One student texted his mother as the school went into lockdown just after the shooting, according to WOIO-TV.
"I don't know if it's a drill. I love you just in case," the student wrote. Uh, If I go tell everyone I love them. If I do go tell them I want the same thing as grandma. He's like I'm being 100 percent serious."

Classes at the school are expected to resume on Wednesday.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/201...hio-middle-school/3541519196431/?spt=slh&or=7

 

[The Sandman]

Now that orange guy is blaming video games instead of the REAL problem wth is wrong with this person????

 

[Lieutenant]

How did he manage to sneak in with 22-caliber long rifle? The US really need to review its 2nd amendment.

 

[Nilgiri]

How did he manage to sneak in with 22-caliber long rifle? The US really need to review its 2nd amendment.

The 2nd amendment saves magnitudes more civilian lives (anywhere north of 500,000 to ~3 million lives) than it takes (actual data/estimates from the CDC)...so it is not the problem directly. Not to mention taking gun homicides ( and including suicides by gun and drug/gang warfare which account for the vast majority of the ~30k annual deaths)...the vast majority of homicides in total (FBI statistics) are conducted by things like bare hands, baseball bats and knives (I believe last time I checked each one of these far exceeded the gun homicide rate).

The problem is school safety in various areas....given the problem includes the smuggling of weaponry in general....most kids die/injured from self inflicted stabbing/slashing by far (when it comes to suicides....either inside or outside the school itself).

Now that orange guy is blaming video games instead of the REAL problem wth is wrong with this person????

So tell me buddy, having read the above, what you think the real problem is? Let's flesh it all out and logically discuss.

 

[The Sandman]

So tell me buddy, having read the above, what you think the real problem is? Let's flesh it all out and logically discuss.

I still think guns are the real problem example of Australia is in front of us m8 guns kill more people in US the example you gave above and US gov (i don't know why maybe it's the Trillions of $$$) never points out the real problem instead tries to look for scapegoats like "VIOLENT video games" which btw were never ever the problem in 2017 Grand Theft Auto 5 which is considered to be a violent game (cuz yea you can do a mass shooting in it) sold 1.3m copies in UK how many mass shootings occurred in UK or rest of the Europe?

https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604

I don't know what is the prob of US either it's the way too lax law which (i guess) permits every psycho to own an AR 15 or just the # of guns that are present is the problem i mean 300m own guns means pretty much everyone owns a gun and or have access to it than obv you will see casualties caused by guns to reach 30k annually.

Whatever is the reason from the above all i am saying is Trump and the gun industry need to stop blaming the Video games for it and find some other scapegoat.

 

[Nilgiri]

Sorry in advance for long reply, please take your time to read it though:

I still think guns are the real problem example of Australia is in front of us

Australia's violent crime rate showed no discernible change due to gun ban, criminal elements often just kept their guns, and people pre-disposed to violence just shifted to other means if they didnt have a gun at hand. The overall drop in crime rate/violence was already happening before Australia's ban (forced buyback + re-registration)....and neither has New Zealand's violent crime rate been significantly different (even though they have had no gun buy back).

us m8 guns kill more people in US the example you gave above and US gov (i don't know why maybe it's the Trillions of $$$)

How is it killing more people when permeated civilian gun ownership save at minimum 10 times more lives...and possibly 100 times more?

You do understand how high- crime zones (including raw gun homicide) in US inner cities correlate heavily with gun ownership restriction? Bad people end up being the only ones armed (since they don't care about the laws anyway)...and civilians (who follow the rules) living there have no real means to defend themselves (and the police turn up like 15 minutes afterwards or much longer than that to try help) when the gangs show up for whatever reason at your store, house or whatever.

In the case of random mass killers attacking soft targets....case in point was the texas church shooting not too long ago where 22 people were killed, but the nutjob was stopped by an armed civilian....and probably prevented 100s more from dieing (the nutjob apparently planned to drive to other churches and do the same). If the police did their job in florida instead of making excuse after excuse to not take some kind of action against the nutjobs warning signs there (and then 4 of them just stood outside waiting in defensive parameter while the shooting was ongoing, apparently AGAINST the standard policy)....and brought guns to bear against the nutjob there, again lives would have been saved. There are so many things to fix first basically (implementation wise) under the current system at hand.

"VIOLENT video games" which btw were never ever the problem in 2017 Grand Theft Auto 5 which is considered to be a violent game (cuz yea you can do a mass shooting in it) sold 1.3m copies in UK how many mass shootings occurred in UK or rest of the Europe?

I agree its not "only" violent video games (and violent TV* etc)....but no one is saying its only that. Countries really should only be compared to themselves over time. There is no real change in Europes violent crime rate (largely stabilised where it is)....but they actually exceed the US in parts (like Norway, Finland and I believe some others) per capita in both gun crime and mass shootings (Norway mostly because of that Anders Breivik nutjob). Per capita (rate, rather than raw total) matters. Also none of these countries have the level of gang activity + drug cartel activity that the US has (if you actually look into what causes most of the raw gun criminal homicide)....none of them have Mexico (and drug routes further south) for example stuck on their southern border....or the specific history of the US that involves why it has 1st amendment and 2nd amendment in the first place (to oppose tyrannical govt)....something exclusive to US alone.

Basically if you remove suicides (and people who commit suicide by gun will just commit suicide another way (example Japan which has next to 0 gun ownership and massively higher suicide rate) if they dont have a gun largely)...and the gang/drug related homicides (largely on fellow gangs and cartels, but civilians are often affected too especially if they have no appropriate defense available at hand)....US "gun violence" (and criminal homicide in general) is largely in the same amount per capita as the rest of developed world. When you factor in the overall lives saved by having a gun on person because of 2nd amendment...its really worth it by far.

The overall decline in the US (compared to itself) over time in violent crime rate is also happening (yes including long term gun homicide and even mass shootings)...but does not get reported much because its another inconvenient fact.

*What i find ironic about the violent TV/movie culture is lot of the actors that are supposedly anti-gun but have no problem acting in movies glorifying gun violence...i.e their claimed moral stance when a paycheck is on the line. Just like how they live in gated, secluded communities...but preach tolerance and acceptance of illegal immigrants etc. for everyone else.

which (i guess) permits every psycho to own an AR 15

Uh no it doesnt. There is federal background check regarding age and criminal history for every purchase of a firearm in the US (legally, if you do things illegally like the gangs do, well thats a whole different matter governing law enforcement).

There is a debate now to add mental illness markers and further age restrictions on the federal background check....but both are slippery slope arguments regarding how do you decide the exact line for competency/safety regarding this.

Again given the incompetency of both FBI and the sheriff department regarding the FL massacre recently, there is much to fix first on the ground right now anyway (including better security +securing of the schools and other soft targets....which have been proven to work in many places in the US already).

There is reason why one of the survivors from the Columbine massacre is now a legislator in Colorado and has helped pass better school security (like armed + qualified teachers) which has helped to reduce the overall crime and violence in the schools there. But things like that do not get much media attention because MSM has to follow the hollywood + liberal narrative to the T. Another disgusting thing they do is keep mentioning the shooters name and show his picture etc (when the intent of many of these sickos is exactly that - notoriety) which has been shown to be a factor in inspiring other psychos down the road (notoriety always preferably to being alone and unknown etc kind of thinking along with hating life because life has been bad to you etc). They (MSM) do this knowingly (given all the columbine post analysis) and its disgusting.

or just the # of guns that are present is the problem i mean 300m own guns

There are roughly 100 million gun owners in the US....and about 3 guns on average each (though potentially a lot more). It's really not the raw number of guns present, but rather the guns present among criminal elements (that commit well in excess of 80% of the criminal gun homicide)....which will be an issue regardless of 2A (because criminals dont follow laws, they want a gun they will acquire one).

The answer has to be keeping as many good people armed as possible (so govt overreach is kept in check, given the history of genocide among humans that almost always involves govt overreach)....and focus on disarming the bad guys or preventing them from being armed (or at least easily). You cannot have simple legislation fix for this (given bad guys do not follow legislation)....heck the existing legislation needs to be improved in first place first before new things are added on top. Police and govt incompetency has to be fixed first and foremost.....but unfortunately the scapegoats being made are civilian gun owners most of the time (when that overall SAVES lives by far).

Whatever is the reason from the above all i am saying is Trump and the gun industry need to stop blaming the Video games for it and find some other scapegoat.

Trump and "gun industry" didnt blame video games solely. Its a factor (and countering it is slippery slope given 1st amendment, 4th amendment and 5th amendment for starters...so its doomed effort tbh) but nowhere near biggest one for sure...and at other instances Trump has raised many issues like the bad policing, FBI missing the mark, mental illness issue, etc....stuff that should be fixed RIGHT NOW under the current legislation already in play.

Plus what does "gun industry" mean? No firearms manufacturers have said anything on the matter that I know. Do you mean NRA? (That is not gun industry btw).

 

[The Sandman]

Sorry in advance for long reply, please take your time to read it though:

Nah it's ok

Plus what does "gun industry" mean? No firearms manufacturers have said anything on the matter that I know. Do you mean NRA? (That is not gun industry btw).

I mean the gun lobby NRA is one of the most powerful gun lobby's according to BBC
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35261394

So reading your post gives me the same feeling of how in Pakistan there is a continuous and never ending debate between left and right on religion and a few other things where neither side is gonna back down same is with US guns are almost a religious thing now and after interacting with a few Americans (or as i think so) on other site and the vast majority of opinions regarding guns they did blamed the guns but your point is also valid that citizens also need to protect themselves too so if i see it from a neutral pov what i think the solution could be (as you said yourself) is more hard checks on gun ownership and far better police.

But bro imho citizens need to protect themselves that's absolutely right but i don't think you need an AK 47 or AR 15 for that if you really want to own a gun because you want to protect yourselves and your loved ones and are serious about it than a pistol in the hands of a trained citizen is enough.

 

[Nilgiri]

Another long reply...I try to summarise, but futile effort lol.

I mean the gun lobby NRA is one of the most powerful gun lobby's according to BBC
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35261394

Its part of many lobbies that are powerful/visible/invisible (by some definition). I can make long list Which ones impact the most positive and negative will be even longer discussion hehe.

So reading your post gives me the same feeling of how in Pakistan there is a continuous and never ending debate between left and right on religion and a few other things where neither side is gonna back down same is with US guns are almost a religious thing now and after interacting with a few Americans (or as i think so) on other site and the vast majority of opinions regarding guns they did blamed the guns but your point is also valid that citizens also need to protect themselves too so if i see it from a neutral pov what i think the solution could be (as you said yourself) is more hard checks on gun ownership and far better police.

Yup agree. It really depends who you go to, right now media is pretty stacked against the overall regular people opinions overall largely. They skew who they ask, sample and who they present etc. This is also part of reason why the polls suggested Trump had only tiny percentage chance to win US election.

For example its often quoted in lots of channels "65% of US people are in favour of some form of extra gun control"....but if you dig into how they got that figure....there is wide range of opinion on what more gun control exactly means to the people lumped into the 65%....varying from complete gun ban (I believe only 15% or even less want that) to better federal check etc....and all the variations in between.

But certain great articles do turn up now and then in even the liberal media, here is lady (who is personally anti-gun etc which she has every right to be)...who studied all the statistics and presents quite an interesting view on why gun control wont work:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...3edca6-a851-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html

By and large it is the same conclusion you have reached, but maybe it will better summarise the why from a personally anti-gun perspective (given I am pro-2A/gun and thus I admit I have some bias, though I try to rely on statistics and logic as much as possible to make my case).

Another summary, this time from a pro-2A source:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/7872/7-facts-gun-crime-show-gun-control-doesnt-work-aaron-bandler

At the very least this info will help you construct a more fuller picture hopefully.

But bro imho citizens need to protect themselves that's absolutely right but i don't think you need an AK 47 or AR 15 for that if you really want to own a gun because you want to protect yourselves and your loved ones and are serious about it than a pistol in the hands of a trained citizen is enough.

Let's dissect this further (I understand where you are coming from, but more info is good always)

a) Full auto is already banned sales-wise (legal sales - again illegal sales is whole different matter that needs better law enforcement). Hope you know what full auto is compared to semi-auto. The ban on full auto (sales) is in effect since the 80s I believe. People that already had them could keep them (but you cannot sell them to any other people legally)....there are also several buybacks done by Police to try reduce this number (existing, grandfathered etc) esp in the trouble spots...but the results are very variable and generally not great (i.e again boils down to who actually owns in the end ...criminal versus civilian...and crooks generally dont give that stuff up even for market value).

b) Semi auto is a huge broad category of firearms. You can have non AK/AR semi auto rifles. All handguns are essentially semi auto too (all pistols basically are, revolvers are very similar essentially unless they are SAO in which case you have to cock manually and separately). Semi auto just means one round per trigger squeeze (semi auto because next round is loaded for you by the gun). Full-auto keeps firing for as long as you keep the trigger pressed or the ammo source runs out (whichever happens first). This is actually BAD for effective lethality overall in most environments given muzzle climb, overall uncontrollability etc....compared to semi auto. Full auto use is actually made with suppresive fire in mind (think MG 42 in WW2)....rather than actually achieving high kill rate/round (more the domain of bolt action K-98 in WW2.....or semi auto in general today). In fact this is the reason why M-16 had 3 round burst in its original mainstream variants....rather than full auto (reckless waste of ammo was the argument....sustained suppresive fire can be handled by the dedicated MG's in platoon etc).

c) So why are semi auto AK/AR styles and variants extra bad then compared to other semi auto platforms? Same question applies to the term "assault rifle"....what classifies them as such....and what is the relevance of any extra functions (grips, picattiny, sights etc) to their lethality? They (semi auto rifles + assault rifles etc) commit tiny fraction of the criminal gun homicides and gun homicides in general.....5% or less....most are handguns by far given the easier nature of their concealment etc. Mass shootings can be done by handguns just as easily, I believe Virginia tech massacre was only handguns.

d) Or are we talking about the rounds in use themselves as the issue. In which case there are several high-performance/penetrating rounds used in handguns. In fact the semi auto AR (used in the FL school massacre recently) uses .223 general which really is not that great of a lethal round overall (talked with @Joe Shearer on this in another thread)....it is a varmint hunting round in its original inception.

So as you can see a consistent, rational and logical argument needs to be made (trust me, its not exactly easy to do for vast majority of people on this subject)....but it needs lot more people to be educated overall on the issues rather than rely on just the media etc. Unfortunately its rarely the case, at least "visibly". But it needs to be made regardless, because vast bulk of the people we are talking about have legally acquired firearms and use them for genuine means only.

That's why its important that I feel lot of people in US that don't own a gun (at the very least) should take a firearms safety course (just like drivers education) and then actually go to a gun shop and buy a gun (if they dont personally like guns, they are free to return it later etc). At the least they will have a capability to defend themselves should it arise (and a firearm is there at hand)....but really it will show them and inform them a lot about things they didn't know before (regarding what firearms actually are and what a citizen has to go through to acquire one legally). Most people I know become much more favourable to the pro-2A argument when they do this, or at least they bury lot of the false info fed to them (because they have actually verified things themselves).

There is no legal way where you go to a gun shop and its "easier than buying chips/candy" like the media is implying (or even deliberately lieing about like CNN did recently regarding some teenage kid going there and buying a firearm with no background check under 5 minutes....which is NOT what he did at all) for example.

 

[The Sandman]

Another long reply...I try to summarise, but futile effort lol.



Its part of many lobbies that are powerful/visible/invisible (by some definition). I can make long list Which ones impact the most positive and negative will be even longer discussion hehe.



Yup agree. It really depends who you go to, right now media is pretty stacked against the overall regular people opinions overall largely. They skew who they ask, sample and who they present etc. This is also part of reason why the polls suggested Trump had only tiny percentage chance to win US election.

For example its often quoted in lots of channels "65% of US people are in favour of some form of extra gun control"....but if you dig into how they got that figure....there is wide range of opinion on what more gun control exactly means to the people lumped into the 65%....varying from complete gun ban (I believe only 15% or even less want that) to better federal check etc....and all the variations in between.

But certain great articles do turn up now and then in even the liberal media, here is lady (who is personally anti-gun etc which she has every right to be)...who studied all the statistics and presents quite an interesting view on why gun control wont work:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...3edca6-a851-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html

By and large it is the same conclusion you have reached, but maybe it will better summarise the why from a personally anti-gun perspective (given I am pro-2A/gun and thus I admit I have some bias, though I try to rely on statistics and logic as much as possible to make my case).

Another summary, this time from a pro-2A source:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/7872/7-facts-gun-crime-show-gun-control-doesnt-work-aaron-bandler

At the very least this info will help you construct a more fuller picture hopefully.



Let's dissect this further (I understand where you are coming from, but more info is good always)

a) Full auto is already banned sales-wise (legal sales - again illegal sales is whole different matter that needs better law enforcement). Hope you know what full auto is compared to semi-auto. The ban on full auto (sales) is in effect since the 80s I believe. People that already had them could keep them (but you cannot sell them to any other people legally)....there are also several buybacks done by Police to try reduce this number (existing, grandfathered etc) esp in the trouble spots...but the results are very variable and generally not great (i.e again boils down to who actually owns in the end ...criminal versus civilian...and crooks generally dont give that stuff up even for market value).

b) Semi auto is a huge broad category of firearms. You can have non AK/AR semi auto rifles. All handguns are essentially semi auto too (all pistols basically are, revolvers are very similar essentially unless they are SAO in which case you have to cock manually and separately). Semi auto just means one round per trigger squeeze (semi auto because next round is loaded for you by the gun). Full-auto keeps firing for as long as you keep the trigger pressed or the ammo source runs out (whichever happens first). This is actually BAD for effective lethality overall in most environments given muzzle climb, overall uncontrollability etc....compared to semi auto. Full auto use is actually made with suppresive fire in mind (think MG 42 in WW2)....rather than actually achieving high kill rate/round (more the domain of bolt action K-98 in WW2.....or semi auto in general today). In fact this is the reason why M-16 had 3 round burst in its original mainstream variants....rather than full auto (reckless waste of ammo was the argument....sustained suppresive fire can be handled by the dedicated MG's in platoon etc).

c) So why are semi auto AK/AR styles and variants extra bad then compared to other semi auto platforms? Same question applies to the term "assault rifle"....what classifies them as such....and what is the relevance of any extra functions (grips, picattiny, sights etc) to their lethality? They (semi auto rifles + assault rifles etc) commit tiny fraction of the criminal gun homicides and gun homicides in general.....5% or less....most are handguns by far given the easier nature of their concealment etc. Mass shootings can be done by handguns just as easily, I believe Virginia tech massacre was only handguns.

d) Or are we talking about the rounds in use themselves as the issue. In which case there are several high-performance/penetrating rounds used in handguns. In fact the semi auto AR (used in the FL school massacre recently) uses .223 general which really is not that great of a lethal round overall (talked with @Joe Shearer on this in another thread)....it is a varmint hunting round in its original inception.

So as you can see a consistent, rational and logical argument needs to be made (trust me, its not exactly easy to do for vast majority of people on this subject)....but it needs lot more people to be educated overall on the issues rather than rely on just the media etc. Unfortunately its rarely the case, at least "visibly". But it needs to be made regardless, because vast bulk of the people we are talking about have legally acquired firearms and use them for genuine means only.

That's why its important that I feel lot of people in US that don't own a gun (at the very least) should take a firearms safety course (just like drivers education) and then actually go to a gun shop and buy a gun (if they dont personally like guns, they are free to return it later etc). At the least they will have a capability to defend themselves should it arise (and a firearm is there at hand)....but really it will show them and inform them a lot about things they didn't know before (regarding what firearms actually are and what a citizen has to go through to acquire one legally). Most people I know become much more favourable to the pro-2A argument when they do this, or at least they bury lot of the false info fed to them (because they have actually verified things themselves).

There is no legal way where you go to a gun shop and its "easier than buying chips/candy" like the media is implying (or even deliberately lieing about like CNN did recently regarding some teenage kid going there and buying a firearm with no background check under 5 minutes....which is NOT what he did at all) for example.

Thank you for a really detailed post backed with facts and logic and i totally agree with the bold part like you i too believe that every citizen should know how to protect themselves if they've access to a firearm. Your posts makes a lot of sense it's always good to know what the both sides have to say.

Offtopic

Btw i myself planning to buy a gun (after getting license and learning on how to handle it obv and if my family agree to it hehe) when i will go back to Pakistan i want to get a pistol which one would you recommend since you seems to have knowledge about these? Note try to recommend a German brand pls

 

[Nilgiri]

Thank you for a really detailed post backed with facts and logic and i totally agree with the bold part like you i too believe that every citizen should know how to protect themselves if they've access to a firearm. Your posts makes a lot of sense it's always good to know what the both sides have to say.

Offtopic

Btw i myself planning to buy a gun (after getting license and learning on how to handle it obv and if my family agree to it hehe) when i will go back to Pakistan i want to get a pistol which one would you recommend since you seems to have knowledge about these? Note try to recommend a German brand pls

I would recommed get a .22 ruger pistol first. Ammo is very cheap for it, extremely reliable and you can practice very cheap on it and get everything thats important acquainted on it (how to use sights, the basic functionality etc). Its not german, but its like cousin twice removed from Luger pistol and looks/operates fairly the same (of course its .22 so much much less recoil).

After that (.22 not meaty enough etc) there is so many options really...german pistol huh....well....you have 3 options for brands : HK, Walther and Sig Sauer (which is also partially swiss in heritage though).

I would suggest 9mm (toyota corolla of pistol rounds...gets the job done with minimum fuss and easy to acquire ammo, ammo can also be used in many sub machine guns etc too).

For Walther, there are many solid choices, of late P99 and PPQ are probably the most well known for reliability/ruggedness.

HK, same thing, I'd say at the top overall would be VP9, P30 and USP.

SIG, cant go wrong with any of the P22X series (P226 is my overall favourite).

These are all currently produced etc/latest iterations (and they have many variants inside them too).... you can find their earlier models on the market still I suppose, they all have long lineages (Walther P38 family for example).

 

[The Sandman]

SIG, cant go wrong with any of the P22X series (P226 is my overall favourite).

Ah P226 is one of my fav handguns in games like BattleField/Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell thanks for all the suggestions bro

 

[Nilgiri]

Worth watching (very close to my perspective summarised) and touches base on lot of what we discussed (first 22 minutes or so) @The Sandman :