An Old Problem ........ but a new challenge

I.R.A

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I just heard in the morning news, finally the sit ins and protests that started with little to no media coverage and expanded to near lock down of major cities and roads in Pakistan after 21 days ........... may have finally ended as I type these words. It all started with demands of resignation of Federal Law Minister from his post, went thru an unsupervised halfhearted operation of law enforcement agencies to clear the sit in site and ended at ...... that Law Minister finally resigning from his post. Waste of time, waste of resources and public property ............. basically a total vision less government dealing with deep rooted hyper extremist religious ideology ............. the result same old same old a common Pakistani suffering ......... without knowing what was his fault.

From last 21 days, what happened in Pakistan was something that has happened multiple times in past, in shape of political protests, religious protests, free judiciary movement, protesting a dictator and his rule and the worst ....... an armed TTP threatening the writ and wit of the state.

This sit in and resultant protest / clashes is nothing new ...... same old pattern all over again, charged protesters, high on their love for their religion, disrupting and disturbing the daily lives of common people and the system all the while thinking they are serving some pious divine cause ........ and the government of Pakistan initially choosing to ignore them as if they (the protesters) don't exist at all, and there is nothing wrong happening, the current government again resorted to censoring media (this ruling party is famous for it) and prohibiting media from giving any coverage to this protest ......... it was only after the high court's intervention that this protest was brought to attention and suffering of common people made known. What happened after the court's order the whole saw it and some in cases used it. However, what has happened has happened already .......... now comes the time where we analyse the whole situation again and try correcting our faults to prevent situation from happening again in future .......... my incomplete analysis of the situation and recommendations ........

  • The government shouldn't have tried playing with sensitivities of deeply conservative Pakistanis, without building proper counter narrative and explanation of laws they tend to pass. Blaming the error(s) on lower tier staff is never reflective of a strong leader and in case of ruling majority a strong government and its ministers. Also this current ruling party has to drop its addiction of passing laws in dark rooms without taking people into confidence. They somehow are those old faces of 80s and 90s politics and they haven't changed their behavior a bit. Anyways the whole episode is quite telling how much competent the elected legislatures of Pakistan are. This tells us again why we need to push for massive electoral reforms and make our children think that they can be PM of Pakistan one day.

  • Moving forward, mistake (intentional or non intentional) happened, religious sensitivities of a people and mainly a particular school of thought were hurt and they presumed a threat and demanded immediate action against the concerned minister .......... people demanded immediate resignation of the minister, however, may be the government in attempt not look weak ignored the demand. In my opinion a lot of trouble and bad press / media could have been avoided for the first time by Minister resigning on his own, accepting that he has been guilty of being too lax and non vigilant. It could have been avoided then and there and minister could have been granted an honorable exit without further putting his character, faith and motives to questioning and doubts.

  • Yesterday's media statements of Interior Minister were eye opening ones ............ Per him he wasn't incharge of the LEAs operation against the protesters, and that op had been carried out by city administration to comply with Court's order. And right before these statements the federal government had asked Army to intervene and act against the protesters (Which request, The Army chief tactfully handled and denied). These statements by the interior minister warrant to question the seriousness of federal government itself to solve the situation, these statements gave an impression that they tried dragging courts and Army into a mess and defame them. Its serious ...... the confrontation with state's other functions.

Now coming to conduct of the protesters. The majority and their leader (s) follow a particular school of thought (they call it school of thought but for me its a sect) ............... these people vehemently claim to be lovers of Messenger Peace be upon him and won't compromise over anything that questions their love for Messenger. Its an obvious that each and every Muslim in any corner of the world cannot deny his love and respect for Messenger Peace be upon and all other Messengers Peace be upon them. A good thing as long as it remains part of one's own faith and doesn't unnecessarily concern others, nothing new, nothing additional (so don't know why there needs to be a separate sect based on that love, its not a competition to prove after all) ..... in any case these protesters felt the need to protest against incompetence shown by federal government while amending some sensitive constitutional provisions. The way these protesters conducted the whole protest and speeches they made were hardly reflective of any true passionate lover and follower of Messenger Peace be upon him. Here is what they could have done (in my opinion)

  • They could have gone to the open space at the outskirts of city (Parade ground) instead of occupying a junction at the main critical road that links the twin cities, and making each and every commuter / driver in the twin cities suffer. Their conduct resulted in patients suffering in ambulances, school going kids facing problems, daily wagers loosing their wages, businesses remaining low. They could have themselves gone to the open space and let everybody run their normal lives without disturbance ........... but as usual reflective of our insecure mentality they acted otherwise. The excuse presented here is that way Government wouldn't have listened to our demands (the incompetent government didn't care anyway even when you sat there for two weeks, you should have been thankful to courts for bringing government's attention to your protest, but you abused the judges) ......... however, you could have told the government a deadline before marching to close the main roads. See its easy to earn respect for your noble cause ....

  • Instead of shitting there in the open, torturing common people, burning private property, planning day in day out on how to baton charge ......... you lovers of the Messenger Peace be upon him could have helped with community service, your presence there for all these 21 days could have left a positive impression on the citizens .............. but sadly an infant died because his parents couldn't make to hospital in time, and unfortunately the only thing citizens could gain from you is speeches full of abuse and blatant display of intolerance.

  • If you could look at your followers you will realise that most of them were hardly equipped with modern education ........... you claim fighting infidel forces while spending your whole life in Pakistan .......... just imagine the day when one of you is really challenged by a well versed infidel ........ who can quote you Quran's references and tell you all about Messenger Peace be upon him's life .....

  • You could have very well protested for a separate lane for ambulances ......... like the metro buses. (I am not kidding)

Anyhow so coming to the conclusion, one thing is very apparent, our masses are deprived of any logical rational thinking. They are fond of cult like following and very near to explode any day with intolerance they breath. This unchecked propagation of ideas sold as religion has deprived many of their thinking capability which is not a positive sign, these zombies get hijacked by any religious looking person and start destroying their own property and neighborhood. There is dire need for the State to step in and get hold of this unchecked cult following, build a counter narrative that is pure Islamic, focus its energy on education reforms and provision of education to uneducated masses. Or else God forbid the days of civil war are not far away ......

@Tps77 @H!thchiker @khafee @Shaheen
 

Hithchiker

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I just heard in the morning news, finally the sit ins and protests that started with little to no media coverage and expanded to near lock down of major cities and roads in Pakistan after 21 days ........... may have finally ended as I type these words. It all started with demands of resignation of Federal Law Minister from his post, went thru an unsupervised halfhearted operation of law enforcement agencies to clear the sit in site and ended at ...... that Law Minister finally resigning from his post. Waste of time, waste of resources and public property ............. basically a total vision less government dealing with deep rooted hyper extremist religious ideology ............. the result same old same old a common Pakistani suffering ......... without knowing what was his fault.

From last 21 days, what happened in Pakistan was something that has happened multiple times in past, in shape of political protests, religious protests, free judiciary movement, protesting a dictator and his rule and the worst ....... an armed TTP threatening the writ and wit of the state.

This sit in and resultant protest / clashes is nothing new ...... same old pattern all over again, charged protesters, high on their love for their religion, disrupting and disturbing the daily lives of common people and the system all the while thinking they are serving some pious divine cause ........ and the government of Pakistan initially choosing to ignore them as if they (the protesters) don't exist at all, and there is nothing wrong happening, the current government again resorted to censoring media (this ruling party is famous for it) and prohibiting media from giving any coverage to this protest ......... it was only after the high court's intervention that this protest was brought to attention and suffering of common people made known. What happened after the court's order the whole saw it and some in cases used it. However, what has happened has happened already .......... now comes the time where we analyse the whole situation again and try correcting our faults to prevent situation from happening again in future .......... my incomplete analysis of the situation and recommendations ........

  • The government shouldn't have tried playing with sensitivities of deeply conservative Pakistanis, without building proper counter narrative and explanation of laws they tend to pass. Blaming the error(s) on lower tier staff is never reflective of a strong leader and in case of ruling majority a strong government and its ministers. Also this current ruling party has to drop its addiction of passing laws in dark rooms without taking people into confidence. They somehow are those old faces of 80s and 90s politics and they haven't changed their behavior a bit. Anyways the whole episode is quite telling how much competent the elected legislatures of Pakistan are. This tells us again why we need to push for massive electoral reforms and make our children think that they can be PM of Pakistan one day.

  • Moving forward, mistake (intentional or non intentional) happened, religious sensitivities of a people and mainly a particular school of thought were hurt and they presumed a threat and demanded immediate action against the concerned minister .......... people demanded immediate resignation of the minister, however, may be the government in attempt not look weak ignored the demand. In my opinion a lot of trouble and bad press / media could have been avoided for the first time by Minister resigning on his own, accepting that he has been guilty of being too lax and non vigilant. It could have been avoided then and there and minister could have been granted an honorable exit without further putting his character, faith and motives to questioning and doubts.

  • Yesterday's media statements of Interior Minister were eye opening ones ............ Per him he wasn't incharge of the LEAs operation against the protesters, and that op had been carried out by city administration to comply with Court's order. And right before these statements the federal government had asked Army to intervene and act against the protesters (Which request, The Army chief tactfully handled and denied). These statements by the interior minister warrant to question the seriousness of federal government itself to solve the situation, these statements gave an impression that they tried dragging courts and Army into a mess and defame them. Its serious ...... the confrontation with state's other functions.

Now coming to conduct of the protesters. The majority and their leader (s) follow a particular school of thought (they call it school of thought but for me its a sect) ............... these people vehemently claim to be lovers of Messenger Peace be upon him and won't compromise over anything that questions their love for Messenger. Its an obvious that each and every Muslim in any corner of the world cannot deny his love and respect for Messenger Peace be upon and all other Messengers Peace be upon them. A good thing as long as it remains part of one's own faith and doesn't unnecessarily concern others, nothing new, nothing additional (so don't know why there needs to be a separate sect based on that love, its not a competition to prove after all) ..... in any case these protesters felt the need to protest against incompetence shown by federal government while amending some sensitive constitutional provisions. The way these protesters conducted the whole protest and speeches they made were hardly reflective of any true passionate lover and follower of Messenger Peace be upon him. Here is what they could have done (in my opinion)

  • They could have gone to the open space at the outskirts of city (Parade ground) instead of occupying a junction at the main critical road that links the twin cities, and making each and every commuter / driver in the twin cities suffer. Their conduct resulted in patients suffering in ambulances, school going kids facing problems, daily wagers loosing their wages, businesses remaining low. They could have themselves gone to the open space and let everybody run their normal lives without disturbance ........... but as usual reflective of our insecure mentality they acted otherwise. The excuse presented here is that way Government wouldn't have listened to our demands (the incompetent government didn't care anyway even when you sat there for two weeks, you should have been thankful to courts for bringing government's attention to your protest, but you abused the judges) ......... however, you could have told the government a deadline before marching to close the main roads. See its easy to earn respect for your noble cause ....

  • Instead of shitting there in the open, torturing common people, burning private property, planning day in day out on how to baton charge ......... you lovers of the Messenger Peace be upon him could have helped with community service, your presence there for all these 21 days could have left a positive impression on the citizens .............. but sadly an infant died because his parents couldn't make to hospital in time, and unfortunately the only thing citizens could gain from you is speeches full of abuse and blatant display of intolerance.

  • If you could look at your followers you will realise that most of them were hardly equipped with modern education ........... you claim fighting infidel forces while spending your whole life in Pakistan .......... just imagine the day when one of you is really challenged by a well versed infidel ........ who can quote you Quran's references and tell you all about Messenger Peace be upon him's life .....

  • You could have very well protested for a separate lane for ambulances ......... like the metro buses. (I am not kidding)

Anyhow so coming to the conclusion, one thing is very apparent, our masses are deprived of any logical rational thinking. They are fond of cult like following and very near to explode any day with intolerance they breath. This unchecked propagation of ideas sold as religion has deprived many of their thinking capability which is not a positive sign, these zombies get hijacked by any religious looking person and start destroying their own property and neighborhood. There is dire need for the State to step in and get hold of this unchecked cult following, build a counter narrative that is pure Islamic, focus its energy on education reforms and provision of education to uneducated masses. Or else God forbid the days of civil war are not far away ......

@Tps77 @H!thchiker @khafee @Shaheen
Agreed , what we are dealt with here are just repercussion of the seeds sown and now is the harvesting time..Main problem here is people "Like to die (somehow they claim though video of 2 rangers dispersing 100 with just stick prove otherwise) for Ishq -E-Rassol but none of them put vigorous efforts to live like him"..Had they known that Prophet said "How delightful you are, and how great is your scent! How magnificent you are, and how great is your sanctity! But by the one in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, the sanctity of a believer, his wealth and his blood, is greater in the sight of Allah than your sanctity, and we do not think of him except good.” they could have think twice of doing any such actions lead to the blood of innocent..
For me these blind followers are just street hooligans..They protested , abused from dharna but there was no prayers ..what a dichotomy it was..
You missed one point every Imam at mosque has his own interpretations and declaration while there is no check and balance of he himself being qualified for that post ?..Unregulated Madrassas view there teacher as holy figure to say them no "equivalent to being a sinner "..
I need not to mentioned about the education system as you rightly pointed out.
The government attitude was simply arrogant..For what benefit of democracy is if you can not debate a LAW being discussed in Parliament before altering it..This weak , unpopular, dysfunctional government only trying to save own skin by playing with sensitive laws provide more teeths to these type of fanatics..This government is a typical epitome of "100 pyaz ya 100 jotay"..Except first two demands (original one , there had been no stage if that could have agreed earlier) by themselves all are aftermath of events..They can't control a mob of few 100's and had to recall Army .This proves the failure and incompetence of civil administrations/institutions..A
  1. Remove Federal Law Minister Zahid Hamid from his position immediately. "Tehreek-i-Labaik will issue no fatwa[religious decree] of any kind against him."
  2. The report prepared by Raja Zafarul Haq-led committee will be made public within 30 days and whoever is named in the report for being responsible for the change in the election oath will be acted against under the law.
  3. All protesters arrested between November 6 until the end of the sit-in from across the country will be released within one to three days according to legal requirements. The cases registered against them and the house arrests imposed on them will be ended.
  4. An inquiry board will be established to probe and decide what action to take against the government and administration officials over the operation conducted by security forces against protesters on Saturday, November 25. The inquiry should be completed within 30 days and action will be taken against those found responsible.
  5. The federal and provincial governments will determine and compensate for the loss of government and private assets incurred from November 6 until the end of the sit-in.
  6. The points already agreed to concerning the Government of Punjab will be fully implemented.
 

I.R.A

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You missed one point every Imam at mosque has his own interpretations and declaration while there is no check and balance of he himself being qualified for that post ?..Unregulated Madrassas view there teacher as holy figure to say them no "equivalent to being a sinner "..
I need not to mentioned about the education system as you rightly pointed out.
Vigorous government efforts and seriousness is needed to reform, produce and propagate a counter narrative and save gullible Pakistanis from becoming hostages of vested self interests in the name of Islam. The religious ministry or whatever its name is should have its scope extended beyond performing Hajj duties and services. Unfortunately it all boils down to a case of wrong set of priorities. Individuals in government and parliament feel threatened by a mature aware educated population and so do these fake Molvis ....... none of them is ready to let go of the hold and influence they practice over poor illiterate population.

Another thing that came out of this sit in and latter LEA's action against it ........ We seriously need to establish a highly trained riot police force. All those images of protesters and police clashing ......... show the same behavior of both parties, a mob clashing with each other.
 

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Vigorous government efforts and seriousness is needed to reform, produce and propagate a counter narrative and save gullible Pakistanis from becoming hostages of vested self interests in the name of Islam. The religious ministry or whatever its name is should have its scope extended beyond performing Hajj duties and services. Unfortunately it all boils down to a case of wrong set of priorities. Individuals in government and parliament feel threatened by a mature aware educated population and so do these fake Molvis ....... none of them is ready to let go of the hold and influence they practice over poor illiterate population.

Another thing that came out of this sit in and latter LEA's action against it ........ We seriously need to establish a highly trained riot police force. All those images of protesters and police clashing ......... show the same behavior of both parties, a mob clashing with each other.
Actually no amount of training will do wonder until the minds are changed..For the very same reason army also declined to take any action..Its a vicious circle with efforts needed from top to down..I think people should be taught arabic in schools so not to get fool by Molvis to them a plate of halawa is much dearer than anything else..Education do resolve lot of issues ...Voting pattern will then decide the right leader ..I think sermons at friday prayers should include this type of teachings...
 

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Actually no amount of training will do wonder until the minds are changed..For the very same reason army also declined to take any action..Its a vicious circle with efforts needed from top to down..I think people should be taught arabic in schools so not to get fool by Molvis to them a plate of halawa is much dearer than anything else..Education do resolve lot of issues ...Voting pattern will then decide the right leader ..I think sermons at friday prayers should include this type of teachings...
Very well said!

Sometimes when you tlak to people, you get the answer, my father/ grand father / uncle was so and so, and HE said this......

What about, the Quran and Sahih Ahadith? No, No, so and so said this.

Lakum deenakum, waliya deen. End of story.
 

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Very well said!

Sometimes when you tlak to people, you get the answer, my father/ grand father / uncle was so and so, and HE said this......

What about, the Quran and Sahih Ahadith? No, No, so and so said this.

Lakum deenakum, waliya deen. End of story.
Exactly, since most of them have not read the Quran with translation or Sahih Ahadith..A word from mouth of local molvi shab is full and final...Ulama to whom people listen tend to choose remain silent ...I wonder what could have happened if Imam Malik would have stayed silent, Alf sani in era of Akbar when fitna of Deen-e-Elahi was prevailing...None in our era stand and speaks and those loony tones with take the streets have there own agenda
 

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Actually no amount of training will do wonder until the minds are changed..
Change of the minds would still not stop people from protesting. In fact to protest against ills and wrong doings is a healthy thing. However, to keep the protests within control and civilised you need a proper trained personnel ......... riot police that can monitor the protests demonstrations and stop it from destroying public property and spreading the chaos.

For the very same reason army also declined to take any action..Its a vicious circle with efforts needed from top to down..
Calling the army to contain this recent situation was height of incompetence ....... if the intentions were right. Calling An Army that cleared the areas from battle hardened terrorists, to contain common deluded civilians? That is why there is need for a professional highly trained riot police that can take charge of such situations.

Education do resolve lot of issues ...
Unfortunately that is the only option we haven't tried in Pakistan.

Voting pattern will then decide the right leader ..I think sermons at friday prayers should include this type of teachings...
Voting pattern will help, but without a transparent electoral process we won't be moving forward. Its the need of the time, with all these technological developments happening all over the world, we cannot remain stuck with thumb prints and manual registers, unless we wish to remain forever under the rule of corrupt dynasties.
 

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  • Moving forward, mistake (intentional or non intentional) happened, religious sensitivities of a people and mainly a particular school of thought were hurt and they presumed a threat and demanded immediate action against the concerned minister .......... people demanded immediate resignation of the minister, however, may be the government in attempt not look weak ignored the demand. In my opinion a lot of trouble and bad press / media could have been avoided for the first time by Minister resigning on his own, accepting that he has been guilty of being too lax and non vigilant. It could have been avoided then and there and minister could have been granted an honorable exit without further putting his character, faith and motives to questioning and doubts.
It's an old thread but still i am still thinking why gov never tried to tell people truth? why they didn't told people that they haven't committed any blasphemy

Why they didn't came out and explained what has happened?
Why they gave opposition so much ammo?
Why they risked their lives?
Why IK and his party played politics over this when they always love to take high moral ground?
Why each and every demand of that blackmail brigade was accepted?
and most imp question what actually happened when operation started police got really close to the container of khadim rizvi than what happened suddenly?

There are so many questions still needs to be answered.
 

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It's an old thread but still i am still thinking why gov never tried to tell people truth? why they didn't told people that they haven't committed any blasphemy

Why they didn't came out and explained what has happened?
Why they gave opposition so much ammo?
Why they risked their lives?
Why IK and his party played politics over this when they always love to take high moral ground?
Why each and every demand of that blackmail brigade was accepted?
and most imp question what actually happened when operation started police got really close to the container of khadim rizvi than what happened suddenly?

There are so many questions still needs to be answered.
My only question - How is a disqualified Public servant, allowed to run around scott free, exposing his retardedness & talking gibberish all day long, running the govt via proxy, AND no prison sentence?

Btw, don't worry about old threads, go ahead and put your POV out there. No issues.
 

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My only question - How is a disqualified Public servant, allowed to run around scott free, exposing his retardedness & talking gibberish all day long, running the govt via proxy, AND no prison sentence?
Sadly we don't have parties who understand what democracy is our PM (I liked that guy tbh) shamelessly says in every public event that i am PM but my real leader is Nawaz they're disrespecting the SC too which is shameful but at the same time we've a confused opposition democracy is in a really weird position.

What we need is young blood new parties and not "individual personalties". PTI was supposed to bring this REAL democracy real democratic party but.....
exposing his retardedness & talking gibberish all day long
For us only his gibbersih is working for him and he will get votes on it too.
 

I.R.A

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It's an old thread but still i am still thinking why gov never tried to tell people truth? why they didn't told people that they haven't committed any blasphemy

Why they didn't came out and explained what has happened?
Why they gave opposition so much ammo?
Why they risked their lives?
Why IK and his party played politics over this when they always love to take high moral ground?
Why each and every demand of that blackmail brigade was accepted?
and most imp question what actually happened when operation started police got really close to the container of khadim rizvi than what happened suddenly?

There are so many questions still needs to be answered.

The main problem which I can figure out is .......... people from typewriter's age haven't changed a bit and they are still living in 80's and 90's. To some extent they are successful because we have seriously lacked in education and awareness of common people. Most of us Pakistanis are still living the age of biradari and races ........ So naturally the people in government now still reflect their 80's and 90's mentality and behavior ..... thinking they can still get away with their lies or can still censor and oppress. However, as time passes by and whether we want it or not information reaches very fast and pressure builds quickly .... take the case of Zainab from Kasur, had it been 90's we won't even be able to know that something this heinous has happened ........ however, we all saw how the Pakistanis reacted and how quickly the pressure was built, everyone came into action and finally the bastard was apprehended within 14 days.

You are right we need young energetic people to take charge ......... but they need to be someone from amongst common people and not the useless offspring of these same tested tried corrupt looters. Some really difficult decisions have to be made which none of them is capable of.
 

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Some really difficult decisions have to be made
That's the sad part who's gonna do that don't tell me "people will" because we all can see how panama decision (which was also botched up imo) is backfiring.
 

I.R.A

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That's the sad part who's gonna do that don't tell me "people will" because we all can see how panama decision (which was also botched up imo) is backfiring.

The good thing with the bad things is .......... too much of bad things leads to realisation of lack of good things. We are almost there its only that we bounce back or we get wiped out, all this is Karma, and don't get confused with Karma being a Non Islamic concept, its very well a natural law, pretty much mentioned in the Quran. Panama is karma ........... same like it took only a little being like mosquito to bring down Nimrood.

There is humans and their laws and then there is Nature and its laws .......... we work and think in short term, and the Nature has been here since start.
 

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