Could the people stand a chance against the military? | Page 4 | World Defense

Could the people stand a chance against the military?

Uncle Doc J

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... do you think that the American citizens of today could stand a chance in a war against our military? This includes all of the citizens with guns, retired soldiers, and those who have bomb-making skills and outstanding computer and network hacking skills.
Not in open war. That's not to say they have better equipment than is available to any of us (and yes; 'we' are the citizens, 'they' are the military), but rather they have the solidarity---the 'attacking in formation.' No, the only way 'we' could "war against our military" is from within.

And that fact is unconstitutional. When the Founding Fathers gave us the right to bear arms, they weren't thinking of 'the right to protect oneself from individual criminals; they had in mind 'that people in their homes should have strength equal to that of the forces that patrolled their streets.'
 

Shimus

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No chance against the military. Unlike the historic wars, the military has advance warfare and technology while people most likely have licence issued guns. Good luck with 100 shotguns against 1 MiG.

Yup. But however, people are resilient. AND SCARY. They could get their hands on something nastier than nukes.. and more readily available (less militarized security) - Viruses or Gases.

All you have to do is get biological or chemical warfare involved.

Game. Set. Match. For everyone, and especially the side using it.
 

xTinx

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Actually many Americans own firearms and are capable of using them. (Hence the many gun law controversies). There are also paramilitary groups that equip and train their people. Sure they may not be as effective as the United States Army, but many of them are heavily armed with high powered rifles, bazookas and grenades.

I agree with orangesunset. Military hardware is only one small component. When it comes to winning a war, the will to fight is equally if not more important. If your soldiers aren't willing to fire on civilians, there's no rifle in the world that will make them do so. Advanced military hardware also becomes useless when fighting against groups that use guerilla tactics. What such groups often do is hide amongst the civilian population and take out key targets. Since no army will simply massacre the entire civilian population (it's not only inhumane, it's also unwise because it means you lose the civilians' support) it's almost impossible to eradicate guerilla groups.
The will to fight, you say? Then say that to the 300 Spartan soldiers who died fighting the Persians at the Battle of Thermopylae. Their will to fight was stronger than all the NATO armies put together, but why were they annihilated? The will to fight may generate victory in certain contexts - such as during the Vietnam war where the Vietnamese gained the upper hand with their knowledge of the terrain. However, it's not the defining element to winning wars. It just adds to the chances of victory - not make or break it.
 

dyanmarie25

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I don't think normal citizens could stand a chance against the military, but who knows what's going to happen if this thing really happens? Well, there's a possibility they could beat the military if all citizens work together.
 

Urhin

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The will to fight, you say? Then say that to the 300 Spartan soldiers who died fighting the Persians at the Battle of Thermopylae. Their will to fight was stronger than all the NATO armies put together, but why were they annihilated? The will to fight may generate victory in certain contexts - such as during the Vietnam war where the Vietnamese gained the upper hand with their knowledge of the terrain. However, it's not the defining element to winning wars. It just adds to the chances of victory - not make or break it.

It's a good point, but I think you're using an extreme example to prove your point. My argument was based on the scenario that we are discussing here: a war between a civilian population and its an organized armed force. There are certainly more than 300 civilians. It's true they will have limited resources, but if you read carefully, I noted that the advantages of superior firepower and air/sea superiority are significantly diminished in a guerilla combat scenario. There are many counter examples I can quote to prove this point. For instance, the Americans lost to the Vietnamese despite their superior firepower (just look at how many cities they carpet bombed) because they had lost the support of the Vietnamese population.
 
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xTinx

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It's a good point, but I think you're using an extreme example to prove your point. My argument was based on the scenario that we are discussing here: a war between a civilian population and its an organized armed force. There are certainly more than 300 civilians. It's true they will have limited resources, but if you read carefully, I noted that the advantages of superior firepower and air/sea superiority are significantly diminished in a guerilla combat scenario. There are many counter examples I can quote to prove this point. For instance, the Americans lost to the Vietnamese despite their superior firepower (just look at how many cities they carpet bombed) because they had lost the support of the Vietnamese population.
I'm giving you not just an example but a solid proof that wars are as unpredictable as a person's life span. If the rebels can wipe off more than 200 people in an airplane in one go and Ukraine can't then it's the latter's loss for not investing in kill-all weapons. There may be deserters but how many are these compared to the overall number of soldiers serving the Ukrainian army? I sure as heck won't discount some of those people's "will to fight."
 

DeltaForce103

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In conventional warfare? The prospect of a civilian militia equipped with small arms managing to hold a candle against the sophisticated military technology, manpower and domestic intelligence available to the United States government is absurd.

However, this would never be a conventional war. The conditions that would justify such a scenario in a society such as the US would most likely also lead to the immediate fragmentation of government institutions, especially those that depend on the support of the public. Large portions of the government employed workforce and the resources they represent, even the top brass of the military, would be at risk of committing treason against the state and joining rebel groups, as we've already seen in current civil conflicts. In such a situation, the civilian side would not be headless, rather it would controlled by political and military forces, for it is inevitable that only one section of the political spectrum would benefit from this presumable breakdown of democratic rule.

The government is not the monolithic organization that appearances indicate, it is a complex network of social institutions that employ and require the complacency, if not trust, of the people. So if this war is to be fought, it would be done so under uncertain and chaotic domestic conditions against the powers that be and those on their payroll. This domino effect will level the playing field considerably until the victory of a civilian side becomes a realistic possibility.

There are many ways such a scenario could proceed and it depends on the involvement of different factors, such as whether the initial cause was ideological differences, degradation of civil freedoms, social/economic inequality, the establishment of classism or plutocracy and so on.
 

Urhin

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I'm giving you not just an example but a solid proof that wars are as unpredictable as a person's life span. If the rebels can wipe off more than 200 people in an airplane in one go and Ukraine can't then it's the latter's loss for not investing in kill-all weapons. There may be deserters but how many are these compared to the overall number of soldiers serving the Ukrainian army? I sure as heck won't discount some of those people's "will to fight."

And what is your point exactly?. Sure wars are generally hard to predict, but it doesn't mean that proper analysis won't enable us to determine which outcomes are more likely.

Your example actually supports my point. It shows that militia groups can effectively outgun an established military. (An anti-air missile is not a kill-all weapon by the way, and Ukraine does have plenty of them)

If you look at the Vietnam war, there were deserters, draft evaders, pilots who refused to carpet bomb civilian populations, etc. The war become so unpopular no one wanted to fight it. You're also forgetting that you need more than soldiers. You need the backing of society and the resources that it can provide you.
 

Gelsemium

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But citizens have access to that same technology. That is what I am trying to relay to you guys.... I don't know about other countries but I can go down the street to the local Walmart and purchase a semi automatic rifle in the blink of an eye. You go online and all the components you need to create bombs and such are right there and can be shipped to your door. I can go on a Government auction site right now and if I had money I could buy a tank, fighter jet, rockets... you name it. Access is the key. The citizens back then did not have access to any of this and yet they were still able to win with just what they had. If they could win a battle with pitch forks and muskets against trained soldiers who had access to deadlier weapons then they can win against soldiers now because they have access to the same weapons as the soldiers have. And as I said before... if a civil war happens between citizens and the government, the government will find themselves with a very small military to work with because 90% of those soldiers are going to fight with their families not against them... so those trained soldiers have now become part of the resistance.

That can happen in the US, but not in many other countries. More, do we really want to do that, an armed revolution? I really would not, I would prefer a peaceful one.
 

KimberlyD

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More, do we really want to do that, an armed revolution?

"cold dead hands" mean anything to you? LOL that is the state my hands would have to be for you to get my weapons out of them. I am sorry, but I have seen too much to let go of my weapons. A peaceful society would be great, but, a armed peaceful society would be. Would you want to be caught with your pants down? I sure as heck don't. I believe in mankind, but I do not believe in defenseless....
 

Brady2121

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I would never count out a determined group of people. Although the people would have less resources, they would still stand a chance.
 

Shimus

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Especially with guerrilla warfare and knowing their terrain. Doesn't mean the government also hasn't mapped it, but the government is not all omnipotent - they just have so much more arms and tech then the average Joe A. Not to say a group of people who plan and stay out of sight like "Red Dawn" would be too far fetched, but I just have a hard time picturing the American people winning in an armed rebellion.
 

drc65

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Every time there is a public debate on gun control people are afraid the government is taking their weapons so the people would not stand a chance against the military. Personally I think the military are the people, therefore they would not fight. The fear is, however, that the military would fight the people.
 

Gelsemium

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"cold dead hands" mean anything to you? LOL that is the state my hands would have to be for you to get my weapons out of them. I am sorry, but I have seen too much to let go of my weapons. A peaceful society would be great, but, a armed peaceful society would be. Would you want to be caught with your pants down? I sure as heck don't. I believe in mankind, but I do not believe in defenseless....

I can take you back to the 25th of April of 1974, when a peaceful revolution happened in Portugal without a shot being fired, so it really depends on the culture of the country I think.
 
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KimberlyD

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I can agree to a certain extent, but I have always had one basic theory....

One of the reasons no one has been dumb enough to try and attack our country is because even if they got past our military.... our citizens are armed to. I am not referring to being armed to protect against your own (even though that is very wise also) I mean to protect my own from other countries. Sooner or later, some one is going to get stupid and attempt the improbably.... I am just saying that one should always be prepared in the event that occurs.

Besides, every knows they are a very peaceful people. Probably one of the very few. LMAO
 
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