Do you find anything here that you relate to? | World Defense

Do you find anything here that you relate to?

Joe Shearer

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@I.R.A

You know that I am (wilfully, perhaps) ignorant about these matters. But I would like your personal opinion on what Bloody Civilian has written on some matters related to religion.

Even those who like to see themselves as upholders of the law, she did not allow to propagate their power or let them dilute rule of law by making exceptions in the name of expediency. That is what angered many of her critics in the middle class - centrists and others - the most, who like to argue that the state comes first and wanted to put it above the law, since they, conveniently, were not at the wrong end of such a state.

Men had no problem with women being there. What people forget is that disagreement in a religious society is not about religion but about interpretation. To tolerate difference of opinion, i.e. interpretation, is also, itself, an interpretation in such a paradigm, as is secularism. Not many so-called rationalists are willing to acknowledge that fact. Disagreeing with religion and any and all of its interpretations ought not to amount to denying facts and eschewing analysis.

There are good hadith affirming women leading prayers as well as standing intermixed within the same row with men at prayer. Similarly, interpretation can explain why there is neither any sanction for women being excluded from funeral prayers or otherwise segregated. Similarly, interpretation can deconstruct and undo the doctrine of hijab, including covering the head. Her funeral prayer was led by Haider Farooq Maududi, by the way, in case people wanted to try really hard and ignore the reality and diversity of interpretation.
 

Joe Shearer

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He was answered, not on the points he raised, but a tangential comment, actually, an answer to another person:

Ahh yes. I do remember seeing that photo at MAJ's funeral of Fatima and Dina mourning him.

I did not know what the protocol followed in funerals is as far as women and their participation is concerned. When I saw the message I posted above circulating on WhatsApp of women attending her funeral and considering their being there as a victory of sorts, I assumed that they generally did not attend public funerals. Which makes sense to me because whether it is proscribed in the faith or not, patriarchy finds ways of expressing itself strongly through religion. We see the same thing in India where Hindu women ( especially of Sanatana dharma families) generally don't attend the cremation nor do they hold the bier on its way to the cremation ground. Among Arya Samajis things are different and customs vary across the country, but generally women stay in the background.
 

Joe Shearer

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Unrelated, but sadly familiar for south Asians:

All she did was stand for equal rights and rule of law, a concept so utterly bewildering to some sections in our part of the world that it continued to cause controversy, confusion and polarisation even in her death. They understand likes and dislikes, power and personalities, interests and ideologies, but simply supremacy of law and equality before it, that they cannot fathom, let alone believe. A woman who would take a stand for a man as easily as she did for a woman, who would fight for the rights of a TTP terrorist illegally detained as fiercely as she did for a young christian boy accused of blasphemy. It was beyond mind boggling for some. Yet, her detractors often had little hesitation in coming to her when they found themselves at the receiving end of injustice done to them by those in power at the time and they needed defending.

This, about Asma Jahangir, is something the walruses in PDF will never understand.
 

Joe Shearer

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Finally, again from Bloody Civilian:

Theology is nothing more than a set of, preferred, interpretations that achieves dominance, in a given era, for a variety of reasons. In the sunni tradition, for example, the four Imams (Malik, Abu Hanifa, Sha'afi, Hanbal) were not interpreting religion (so calling them mujtahideen, and in that sense Imams, is misleading, since they did not do any ijtehad). They set up their own rules, i.e. arguments, for preferring one existing interpretation over others and did so across most areas of religion and of private and public life, with help, especially, from their followers and successors in each 'school of thought' (another, slight, misnomer) for their theologies to have been fairly comprehensive, for their times. They did an analysis of existing interpretations using secondary or tertiary principles, like expedience and practicality etc. They did not attempt an explication and interpretation of the canonical texts using first principles.
 

I.R.A

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Sir I would request some time for me to participate and share my personal opinion(s).
 

I.R.A

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Joe Sahib sorry today has been hectic, couldn't reply in time, now in the final hour I have tried compiling some points, I hope these make some sense

But I would like your personal opinion on what Bloody Civilian has written on some matters related to religion.
Interesting points sir, by bloody civilian I will assume that you are referring to yourself (You don’t happen to be a pure bloody civilian)?

However, Sir I have tried and read passages posted by you again and again for a better understanding, reading the arguments again and again also helps me with brainstorming, thinking and looking at arguments from different angles.

I have broken down passage posted by you into two different matters

  • One, related to late Asma Jahangir her work, her views and her personality.
  • Other funeral prayers, last rituals offered by Muslims for another dead Muslim
On both these matters whatever I post here remains my personal opinion (Thank you for clearly mentioning it in your opening sentence), a view that I form(ed) based on my limited knowledge and understanding. I don’t treat myself an authority for anyone else except myself, for me it’s a continuous process of learning and understanding.

I may be totally wrong or I may be partially right, reader’s discretion is advised and it would be appreciated if reader’s make up their own mind after their own research. Also I will take the liberty to refer to Quran’s verses and post the translated text, as far as the debate is related to religion, theology parts of the arguments.

So here is my response to slightly reshuffled quotes from your postings


Men had no problem with women being there. What people forget is that disagreement in a religious society is not about religion but about interpretation. To tolerate difference of opinion, i.e. interpretation, is also, itself, an interpretation in such a paradigm, as is secularism. Not many so-called rationalists are willing to acknowledge that fact. Disagreeing with religion and any and all of its interpretations ought not to amount to denying facts and eschewing analysis.
What exactly is a funeral prayer? ….. A ritual that exists in almost all societies irrespective of whether they follow a religion or are pagans or are totally backward away from any civilization. This ritual in any form is expression of human emotions, respect, pain and acceptance of a reality. Humans need to express, it is not normal for humans to not react to death of someone close, someone they know, another someone like them. So it exists with or without divine decree, it exists ……. It has nothing to do with accepting, submitting to or worshipping ALLAH / God …….. so anything that is not an act of worship of ALLAH or any gathering that is not commemorating ALLAH ……. isn’t exactly and totally religion or Deen (The two are very different Joe sb. Deen is Islam and religion is Shia, Sunni etc.) it’s something that we humans needed and invented the only divine intervention and instruction pertaining to this came as, when the first time in human history a human killed another human, his brother ………. The killer was totally blind as to what to do with the dead body of his brother, and then the Divine authority sent a bird to show him what he needs to do

“(5:30) At last his evil soul drove him to the murder of his brother, and he killed him, whereby he himself became one of the losers.”

“(5:31) Thereupon Allah sent forth a raven who began to scratch the earth to show him how he might cover the corpse of his brother. So seeing he cried: 'Woe unto me! Was I unable even to be like this raven and find a way to cover the corpse of my brother? Then he became full of remorse at his doing.”

That’s it ……. nothing else is mentioned.

However, nothing stops nothing describes as what should be the funeral rituals. Coming to the Muslim funeral prayers, it’s a final rite where we pray and seek forgiveness for the dead …….. though it doesn’t matter given the lawful, Just and Merciful attributes of ALLAH mentioned in Quran, HE needs not to be reminded of HIM being merciful ……… HE is the only judge and HE is the only one who is absolutely just. What HE may forgive (except for Shirk and some other grave sins) and what HE may punish is totally HIS domain, HIS discretion and HE doesn’t like to share it with anyone. We humans can only express but not influence nor convince …… that is what Quran says.



"All intercession belongs to God. 39:44"

"A day to come in which there will be no trade, no friendship and no intercession. 2:254"

"You have come to Us each on his own, just as We created you the first time, and you have left behind what We had provided for you. We do not see with you your intercessors whom you claimed were 'shurakaa' (partners) among you. All your means have been cut off and that which you have claimed has deserted you. 6:94"

"You (Muhammad) have no say in the matter as to whether He redeems them or He punishes them, for they are transgressors. 3:128"

"It is the day when no self-possesses any power to help any other self, and all matters on that day will be decided by God alone. 82:19"

"As for the one who has deserved the decree of punishment, can you (Muhammad) rescue those who are in the fire? 39:19"

Further confirmation that there will be no intercession on Judgement Day is given in: 2:48, 123; 6:51, 70; 7:53; 26:100; 30:13; 32:4; 36:23; 40:18; & 74:48.

Now when it’s established that Muslim funeral prayers are not a commemoration of ALLAH and worship of ALLAH …. and the dead and his / her fate is not effected by what we moral humans pray for them …….. we can safely assume that funeral prayers remain a way of human expression of sorrow, respect, love, fear, sadness, and a right that we owe to our dead friend, relative, acquaintance, associate or even a total stranger.

Now coming to the other side of this matter ……. Who should and who shouldn’t attend, to be more specific should this gathering or can this gathering be a gender mixed gathering?

Depends totally on what sort of people are living in a society ……………..

If it’s a Quranic society that is comprised of perfect, moral, principled people, who are not lustful, who are respectful and treat non related ladies as their own sisters and mothers ……. Fine and yes ……………, but if it is a society of people where even one person amongst them is lustful or easily gets attracted to a total stranger woman thinking “Oh hey nice bottom” …”Oh wow nice busty bosom” …. Sorry no way …….. no ifs no buts. Achieve the perfection, become perfect humans and then you move to the next stage ……… else work on becoming perfect humans first.

There are good hadith affirming women leading prayers as well as standing intermixed within the same row with men at prayer. Similarly, interpretation can explain why there is neither any sanction for women being excluded from funeral prayers or otherwise segregated. Similarly, interpretation can deconstruct and undo the doctrine of hijab, including covering the head. Her funeral prayer was led by Haider Farooq Maududi, by the way, in case people wanted to try really hard and ignore the reality and diversity of interpretation.
Sir for the time being and until the time comes when the traditions are revisited in light of Quran and Quran is held supreme over and above everything else ………. I cannot say much about traditions (Hadeeth) ……… for me Quran is the best of the hadeeth and only hadeeth.

It’s not about the gender equality; it’s about the perfect Quranic society as I hinted above. The ones who were perfect in this sense took their women with them in the battlefields; sadly we are nowhere an inch near that sort of character.


He was answered, not on the points he raised, but a tangential comment, actually, an answer to another person:

Ahh yes. I do remember seeing that photo at MAJ's funeral of Fatima and Dina mourning him.

I did not know what the protocol followed in funerals is as far as women and their participation is concerned. When I saw the message I posted above circulating on WhatsApp of women attending her funeral and considering their being there as a victory of sorts, I assumed that they generally did not attend public funerals. Which makes sense to me because whether it is proscribed in the faith or not, patriarchy finds ways of expressing itself strongly through religion. We see the same thing in India where Hindu women ( especially of Sanatana dharma families) generally don't attend the cremation nor do they hold the bier on its way to the cremation ground. Among Arya Samajis things are different and customs vary across the country, but generally women stay in the background.
Patriarchy has exploited the beautiful deen and converted and bended it as religion for them. Most of the points related to this have been discussed in my opening paragraph.

This type of gender equality that the today’s world wishes to see in Muslims can only be achieved by moving to levels above, the upper stages of being humans ………. And sadly we haven’t even started yet. And it would be Muslims themselves and any outsiders telling them or criticizing them.

Finally, again from Bloody Civilian:

Theology is nothing more than a set of, preferred, interpretations that achieves dominance, in a given era, for a variety of reasons. In the sunni tradition, for example, the four Imams (Malik, Abu Hanifa, Sha'afi, Hanbal) were not interpreting religion (so calling them mujtahideen, and in that sense Imams, is misleading, since they did not do any ijtehad). They set up their own rules, i.e. arguments, for preferring one existing interpretation over others and did so across most areas of religion and of private and public life, with help, especially, from their followers and successors in each 'school of thought' (another, slight, misnomer) for their theologies to have been fairly comprehensive, for their times. They did an analysis of existing interpretations using secondary or tertiary principles, like expedience and practicality etc. They did not attempt an explication and interpretation of the canonical texts using first principles.
Sir there is a reason Quran hasn’t made each and everything as binding and final divine order. There are very specific areas where Quran has ordered to discontinue and abandon the practice e.g. interest, pig consumption, slavery, adultery, drinking etc ….. all such practices do not ........ I repeat again do not form necessities to live and survive. On almost all of rest of the matters Quran has laid guidelines and hasn’t ordered, like e.g. in case of inheritance, Quran starts by stressing that it is better for you to write a will …… in case of dealings (business) Quran advises you to have every dealing documented, the partnership, the contracts, the agreements …. Have them written.

Now this is a very fine bareek nukta (point) to understand ………. Why Quran remained flexible and why we Muslims claim that it is source for all the humanity that has to come till the judgement day ……… because ALLAH knows that humans would evolve, their societies will evolve, their methods will evolve, their needs will change …….

So dear sir you are correct when you say that any interpretation done for any time is valid for that time only, as soon as the societies evolve they develop a better understanding of their surroundings, this Earth and universe ……. People from era where they didn’t have printing presses cannot be expected to answer questions of a child from this time period. Any person from that period would lose his mind if he is reborn again in this time period ….. We are living in age of human made miracles ………. And the people who understand Quran find it normal and accept that Quran is full of wisdom and as the science progresses, human thinking evolves and discovers new things, all this helps understanding Quran better, and the people who wish to live with preprinting press interpretations ….. call science kafir.

Imam Abu Hanifa sahib is not expected to understand the concept of gravity mentioned in Quran, he is not expected to understand and imagine what it means by “Day follows the night and night follows the day” or “Sun moon and Earth are revolving in their orbits” …. All this non understanding of these things is not his failure or weakness …. It’s just that humans of that time hadn’t excelled in science this much …. To better understand these concepts and all these concepts are mentioned in Quran.

Unrelated, but sadly familiar for south Asians:

All she did was stand for equal rights and rule of law, a concept so utterly bewildering to some sections in our part of the world that it continued to cause controversy, confusion and polarisation even in her death. They understand likes and dislikes, power and personalities, interests and ideologies, but simply supremacy of law and equality before it, that they cannot fathom, let alone believe. A woman who would take a stand for a man as easily as she did for a woman, who would fight for the rights of a TTP terrorist illegally detained as fiercely as she did for a young christian boy accused of blasphemy. It was beyond mind boggling for some. Yet, her detractors often had little hesitation in coming to her when they found themselves at the receiving end of injustice done to them by those in power at the time and they needed defending.
This, about Asma Jahangir, is something the walruses in PDF will never understand.
Sir Asma’s chapter is closed, as I have already expressed my views on this, she cannot anymore answer her critics and cannot come and reward her appraisers. I like her or I don’t like her, I pray for her or I don’t pray for her ………. Doesn’t make any difference now. No intercession possible .....…….

However as far as her life as a lawyer is concerned, now I think she wasn’t inventing rules and regulations, lets say if she was successful to say get any terrorist bailed out or freed …. She was using the loopholes in the laws. If the laws wouldn’t have allowed her, she may not have been able to do that. So instead of mourning her or criticizing her I think I would mourn Pakistani laws and criticize Pakistani laws.
 

Joe Shearer

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Joe Sahib sorry today has been hectic, couldn't reply in time, now in the final hour I have tried compiling some points, I hope these make some sense



Interesting points sir, by bloody civilian I will assume that you are referring to yourself (You don’t happen to be a pure bloody civilian)?

However, Sir I have tried and read passages posted by you again and again for a better understanding, reading the arguments again and again also helps me with brainstorming, thinking and looking at arguments from different angles.

I have broken down passage posted by you into two different matters

  • One, related to late Asma Jahangir her work, her views and her personality.
  • Other funeral prayers, last rituals offered by Muslims for another dead Muslim
On both these matters whatever I post here remains my personal opinion (Thank you for clearly mentioning it in your opening sentence), a view that I form(ed) based on my limited knowledge and understanding. I don’t treat myself an authority for anyone else except myself, for me it’s a continuous process of learning and understanding.

I may be totally wrong or I may be partially right, reader’s discretion is advised and it would be appreciated if reader’s make up their own mind after their own research. Also I will take the liberty to refer to Quran’s verses and post the translated text, as far as the debate is related to religion, theology parts of the arguments.

So here is my response to slightly reshuffled quotes from your postings




What exactly is a funeral prayer? ….. A ritual that exists in almost all societies irrespective of whether they follow a religion or are pagans or are totally backward away from any civilization. This ritual in any form is expression of human emotions, respect, pain and acceptance of a reality. Humans need to express, it is not normal for humans to not react to death of someone close, someone they know, another someone like them. So it exists with or without divine decree, it exists ……. It has nothing to do with accepting, submitting to or worshipping ALLAH / God …….. so anything that is not an act of worship of ALLAH or any gathering that is not commemorating ALLAH ……. isn’t exactly and totally religion or Deen (The two are very different Joe sb. Deen is Islam and religion is Shia, Sunni etc.) it’s something that we humans needed and invented the only divine intervention and instruction pertaining to this came as, when the first time in human history a human killed another human, his brother ………. The killer was totally blind as to what to do with the dead body of his brother, and then the Divine authority sent a bird to show him what he needs to do

“(5:30) At last his evil soul drove him to the murder of his brother, and he killed him, whereby he himself became one of the losers.”

“(5:31) Thereupon Allah sent forth a raven who began to scratch the earth to show him how he might cover the corpse of his brother. So seeing he cried: 'Woe unto me! Was I unable even to be like this raven and find a way to cover the corpse of my brother? Then he became full of remorse at his doing.”

That’s it ……. nothing else is mentioned.

However, nothing stops nothing describes as what should be the funeral rituals. Coming to the Muslim funeral prayers, it’s a final rite where we pray and seek forgiveness for the dead …….. though it doesn’t matter given the lawful, Just and Merciful attributes of ALLAH mentioned in Quran, HE needs not to be reminded of HIM being merciful ……… HE is the only judge and HE is the only one who is absolutely just. What HE may forgive (except for Shirk and some other grave sins) and what HE may punish is totally HIS domain, HIS discretion and HE doesn’t like to share it with anyone. We humans can only express but not influence nor convince …… that is what Quran says.



"All intercession belongs to God. 39:44"

"A day to come in which there will be no trade, no friendship and no intercession. 2:254"

"You have come to Us each on his own, just as We created you the first time, and you have left behind what We had provided for you. We do not see with you your intercessors whom you claimed were 'shurakaa' (partners) among you. All your means have been cut off and that which you have claimed has deserted you. 6:94"

"You (Muhammad) have no say in the matter as to whether He redeems them or He punishes them, for they are transgressors. 3:128"

"It is the day when no self-possesses any power to help any other self, and all matters on that day will be decided by God alone. 82:19"

"As for the one who has deserved the decree of punishment, can you (Muhammad) rescue those who are in the fire? 39:19"

Further confirmation that there will be no intercession on Judgement Day is given in: 2:48, 123; 6:51, 70; 7:53; 26:100; 30:13; 32:4; 36:23; 40:18; & 74:48.

Now when it’s established that Muslim funeral prayers are not a commemoration of ALLAH and worship of ALLAH …. and the dead and his / her fate is not effected by what we moral humans pray for them …….. we can safely assume that funeral prayers remain a way of human expression of sorrow, respect, love, fear, sadness, and a right that we owe to our dead friend, relative, acquaintance, associate or even a total stranger.

Now coming to the other side of this matter ……. Who should and who shouldn’t attend, to be more specific should this gathering or can this gathering be a gender mixed gathering?

Depends totally on what sort of people are living in a society ……………..

If it’s a Quranic society that is comprised of perfect, moral, principled people, who are not lustful, who are respectful and treat non related ladies as their own sisters and mothers ……. Fine and yes ……………, but if it is a society of people where even one person amongst them is lustful or easily gets attracted to a total stranger woman thinking “Oh hey nice bottom” …”Oh wow nice busty bosom” …. Sorry no way …….. no ifs no buts. Achieve the perfection, become perfect humans and then you move to the next stage ……… else work on becoming perfect humans first.



Sir for the time being and until the time comes when the traditions are revisited in light of Quran and Quran is held supreme over and above everything else ………. I cannot say much about traditions (Hadeeth) ……… for me Quran is the best of the hadeeth and only hadeeth.

It’s not about the gender equality; it’s about the perfect Quranic society as I hinted above. The ones who were perfect in this sense took their women with them in the battlefields; sadly we are nowhere an inch near that sort of character.




Patriarchy has exploited the beautiful deen and converted and bended it as religion for them. Most of the points related to this have been discussed in my opening paragraph.

This type of gender equality that the today’s world wishes to see in Muslims can only be achieved by moving to levels above, the upper stages of being humans ………. And sadly we haven’t even started yet. And it would be Muslims themselves and any outsiders telling them or criticizing them.



Sir there is a reason Quran hasn’t made each and everything as binding and final divine order. There are very specific areas where Quran has ordered to discontinue and abandon the practice e.g. interest, pig consumption, slavery, adultery, drinking etc ….. all such practices do not ........ I repeat again do not form necessities to live and survive. On almost all of rest of the matters Quran has laid guidelines and hasn’t ordered, like e.g. in case of inheritance, Quran starts by stressing that it is better for you to write a will …… in case of dealings (business) Quran advises you to have every dealing documented, the partnership, the contracts, the agreements …. Have them written.

Now this is a very fine bareek nukta (point) to understand ………. Why Quran remained flexible and why we Muslims claim that it is source for all the humanity that has to come till the judgement day ……… because ALLAH knows that humans would evolve, their societies will evolve, their methods will evolve, their needs will change …….

So dear sir you are correct when you say that any interpretation done for any time is valid for that time only, as soon as the societies evolve they develop a better understanding of their surroundings, this Earth and universe ……. People from era where they didn’t have printing presses cannot be expected to answer questions of a child from this time period. Any person from that period would lose his mind if he is reborn again in this time period ….. We are living in age of human made miracles ………. And the people who understand Quran find it normal and accept that Quran is full of wisdom and as the science progresses, human thinking evolves and discovers new things, all this helps understanding Quran better, and the people who wish to live with preprinting press interpretations ….. call science kafir.

Imam Abu Hanifa sahib is not expected to understand the concept of gravity mentioned in Quran, he is not expected to understand and imagine what it means by “Day follows the night and night follows the day” or “Sun moon and Earth are revolving in their orbits” …. All this non understanding of these things is not his failure or weakness …. It’s just that humans of that time hadn’t excelled in science this much …. To better understand these concepts and all these concepts are mentioned in Quran.



Sir Asma’s chapter is closed, as I have already expressed my views on this, she cannot anymore answer her critics and cannot come and reward her appraisers. I like her or I don’t like her, I pray for her or I don’t pray for her ………. Doesn’t make any difference now. No intercession possible .....…….

However as far as her life as a lawyer is concerned, now I think she wasn’t inventing rules and regulations, lets say if she was successful to say get any terrorist bailed out or freed …. She was using the loopholes in the laws. If the laws wouldn’t have allowed her, she may not have been able to do that. So instead of mourning her or criticizing her I think I would mourn Pakistani laws and criticize Pakistani laws.
Joe Sahib sorry today has been hectic, couldn't reply in time, now in the final hour I have tried compiling some points, I hope these make some sense



Interesting points sir, by bloody civilian I will assume that you are referring to yourself (You don’t happen to be a pure bloody civilian)?

However, Sir I have tried and read passages posted by you again and again for a better understanding, reading the arguments again and again also helps me with brainstorming, thinking and looking at arguments from different angles.

I have broken down passage posted by you into two different matters

  • One, related to late Asma Jahangir her work, her views and her personality.
  • Other funeral prayers, last rituals offered by Muslims for another dead Muslim
On both these matters whatever I post here remains my personal opinion (Thank you for clearly mentioning it in your opening sentence), a view that I form(ed) based on my limited knowledge and understanding. I don’t treat myself an authority for anyone else except myself, for me it’s a continuous process of learning and understanding.

I may be totally wrong or I may be partially right, reader’s discretion is advised and it would be appreciated if reader’s make up their own mind after their own research. Also I will take the liberty to refer to Quran’s verses and post the translated text, as far as the debate is related to religion, theology parts of the arguments.

So here is my response to slightly reshuffled quotes from your postings




What exactly is a funeral prayer? ….. A ritual that exists in almost all societies irrespective of whether they follow a religion or are pagans or are totally backward away from any civilization. This ritual in any form is expression of human emotions, respect, pain and acceptance of a reality. Humans need to express, it is not normal for humans to not react to death of someone close, someone they know, another someone like them. So it exists with or without divine decree, it exists ……. It has nothing to do with accepting, submitting to or worshipping ALLAH / God …….. so anything that is not an act of worship of ALLAH or any gathering that is not commemorating ALLAH ……. isn’t exactly and totally religion or Deen (The two are very different Joe sb. Deen is Islam and religion is Shia, Sunni etc.) it’s something that we humans needed and invented the only divine intervention and instruction pertaining to this came as, when the first time in human history a human killed another human, his brother ………. The killer was totally blind as to what to do with the dead body of his brother, and then the Divine authority sent a bird to show him what he needs to do

“(5:30) At last his evil soul drove him to the murder of his brother, and he killed him, whereby he himself became one of the losers.”

“(5:31) Thereupon Allah sent forth a raven who began to scratch the earth to show him how he might cover the corpse of his brother. So seeing he cried: 'Woe unto me! Was I unable even to be like this raven and find a way to cover the corpse of my brother? Then he became full of remorse at his doing.”

That’s it ……. nothing else is mentioned.

However, nothing stops nothing describes as what should be the funeral rituals. Coming to the Muslim funeral prayers, it’s a final rite where we pray and seek forgiveness for the dead …….. though it doesn’t matter given the lawful, Just and Merciful attributes of ALLAH mentioned in Quran, HE needs not to be reminded of HIM being merciful ……… HE is the only judge and HE is the only one who is absolutely just. What HE may forgive (except for Shirk and some other grave sins) and what HE may punish is totally HIS domain, HIS discretion and HE doesn’t like to share it with anyone. We humans can only express but not influence nor convince …… that is what Quran says.



"All intercession belongs to God. 39:44"

"A day to come in which there will be no trade, no friendship and no intercession. 2:254"

"You have come to Us each on his own, just as We created you the first time, and you have left behind what We had provided for you. We do not see with you your intercessors whom you claimed were 'shurakaa' (partners) among you. All your means have been cut off and that which you have claimed has deserted you. 6:94"

"You (Muhammad) have no say in the matter as to whether He redeems them or He punishes them, for they are transgressors. 3:128"

"It is the day when no self-possesses any power to help any other self, and all matters on that day will be decided by God alone. 82:19"

"As for the one who has deserved the decree of punishment, can you (Muhammad) rescue those who are in the fire? 39:19"

Further confirmation that there will be no intercession on Judgement Day is given in: 2:48, 123; 6:51, 70; 7:53; 26:100; 30:13; 32:4; 36:23; 40:18; & 74:48.

Now when it’s established that Muslim funeral prayers are not a commemoration of ALLAH and worship of ALLAH …. and the dead and his / her fate is not effected by what we moral humans pray for them …….. we can safely assume that funeral prayers remain a way of human expression of sorrow, respect, love, fear, sadness, and a right that we owe to our dead friend, relative, acquaintance, associate or even a total stranger.

Now coming to the other side of this matter ……. Who should and who shouldn’t attend, to be more specific should this gathering or can this gathering be a gender mixed gathering?

Depends totally on what sort of people are living in a society ……………..

If it’s a Quranic society that is comprised of perfect, moral, principled people, who are not lustful, who are respectful and treat non related ladies as their own sisters and mothers ……. Fine and yes ……………, but if it is a society of people where even one person amongst them is lustful or easily gets attracted to a total stranger woman thinking “Oh hey nice bottom” …”Oh wow nice busty bosom” …. Sorry no way …….. no ifs no buts. Achieve the perfection, become perfect humans and then you move to the next stage ……… else work on becoming perfect humans first.



Sir for the time being and until the time comes when the traditions are revisited in light of Quran and Quran is held supreme over and above everything else ………. I cannot say much about traditions (Hadeeth) ……… for me Quran is the best of the hadeeth and only hadeeth.

It’s not about the gender equality; it’s about the perfect Quranic society as I hinted above. The ones who were perfect in this sense took their women with them in the battlefields; sadly we are nowhere an inch near that sort of character.




Patriarchy has exploited the beautiful deen and converted and bended it as religion for them. Most of the points related to this have been discussed in my opening paragraph.

This type of gender equality that the today’s world wishes to see in Muslims can only be achieved by moving to levels above, the upper stages of being humans ………. And sadly we haven’t even started yet. And it would be Muslims themselves and any outsiders telling them or criticizing them.



Sir there is a reason Quran hasn’t made each and everything as binding and final divine order. There are very specific areas where Quran has ordered to discontinue and abandon the practice e.g. interest, pig consumption, slavery, adultery, drinking etc ….. all such practices do not ........ I repeat again do not form necessities to live and survive. On almost all of rest of the matters Quran has laid guidelines and hasn’t ordered, like e.g. in case of inheritance, Quran starts by stressing that it is better for you to write a will …… in case of dealings (business) Quran advises you to have every dealing documented, the partnership, the contracts, the agreements …. Have them written.

Now this is a very fine bareek nukta (point) to understand ………. Why Quran remained flexible and why we Muslims claim that it is source for all the humanity that has to come till the judgement day ……… because ALLAH knows that humans would evolve, their societies will evolve, their methods will evolve, their needs will change …….

So dear sir you are correct when you say that any interpretation done for any time is valid for that time only, as soon as the societies evolve they develop a better understanding of their surroundings, this Earth and universe ……. People from era where they didn’t have printing presses cannot be expected to answer questions of a child from this time period. Any person from that period would lose his mind if he is reborn again in this time period ….. We are living in age of human made miracles ………. And the people who understand Quran find it normal and accept that Quran is full of wisdom and as the science progresses, human thinking evolves and discovers new things, all this helps understanding Quran better, and the people who wish to live with preprinting press interpretations ….. call science kafir.

Imam Abu Hanifa sahib is not expected to understand the concept of gravity mentioned in Quran, he is not expected to understand and imagine what it means by “Day follows the night and night follows the day” or “Sun moon and Earth are revolving in their orbits” …. All this non understanding of these things is not his failure or weakness …. It’s just that humans of that time hadn’t excelled in science this much …. To better understand these concepts and all these concepts are mentioned in Quran.



Sir Asma’s chapter is closed, as I have already expressed my views on this, she cannot anymore answer her critics and cannot come and reward her appraisers. I like her or I don’t like her, I pray for her or I don’t pray for her ………. Doesn’t make any difference now. No intercession possible .....…….

However as far as her life as a lawyer is concerned, now I think she wasn’t inventing rules and regulations, lets say if she was successful to say get any terrorist bailed out or freed …. She was using the loopholes in the laws. If the laws wouldn’t have allowed her, she may not have been able to do that. So instead of mourning her or criticizing her I think I would mourn Pakistani laws and criticize Pakistani laws.
I am saving it up to read at leisure, perhaps tomorrow, as today there are too many things to push out before midnight. The 'Bloody Civilian' was a well-known Pakistani member of PakTeaHouse, who became one of the three founders of our 'insaniyat' mailing list. He lives with his wife and beautiful children in Britain, and is very dear to all of us, mainly for his great humanitarian perspective and his ability to explain Islam to us kaffirs. These pieces were written to us in the aftermath of Asma Jahangir's death.

As I mentioned, I am saving your comments up, and will save other comments if made, for reading calmly and peacefully tomorrow and on Saturday.

Much appreciated.
 

Khafee

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Finally, again from Bloody Civilian:

Theology is nothing more than a set of, preferred, interpretations that achieves dominance, in a given era, for a variety of reasons. In the sunni tradition, for example, the four Imams (Malik, Abu Hanifa, Sha'afi, Hanbal) were not interpreting religion (so calling them mujtahideen, and in that sense Imams, is misleading, since they did not do any ijtehad). They set up their own rules, i.e. arguments, for preferring one existing interpretation over others and did so across most areas of religion and of private and public life, with help, especially, from their followers and successors in each 'school of thought' (another, slight, misnomer) for their theologies to have been fairly comprehensive, for their times. They did an analysis of existing interpretations using secondary or tertiary principles, like expedience and practicality etc. They did not attempt an explication and interpretation of the canonical texts using first principles.
Bloody moron, more like it. After reading this, I need to go lie down.
 

Joe Shearer

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Bloody moron, more like it. After reading this, I need to go lie down.
:D

We all tiptoe around him, as nobody - including the other Pakistanis - quite knows how to react! We are totally intimidated, and prefer him when he's talking about things we understand.
 

Khafee

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:D

We all tiptoe around him, as nobody - including the other Pakistanis - quite knows how to react! We are totally intimidated, and prefer him when he's talking about things we understand.
I have a relative like that. He starts with the words "when I wasn't a multi-millionaire" |0|
 
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