Govt endorses summary to get 8 submarines from China, defence committee told

[Bubblegum Crisis]

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Now pakistan will get finally ‘a 2nd Strike Capability’. The submarines will be built with ToT.


Quote :

Govt endorses summary to get 8 submarines from China, defence committee told

Muhammad Bilal
March 31, 2015

ISLAMABAD: Naval officials informed the Standing Committee on Defence Monday that the federal government has endorsed a summary to get eight submarines from China.

Pakistan's military has long been a major importer of defence equipment, particularly from key ally China.

After the Cold War ended Pakistan began to deepen defence and economic ties with China.

Take a look: With new JF-17, Pakistan aims for boost to defence exports

The committee was informed that Secretary of the Economic Affairs division Muhammad Saleem Sethi would be leaving for China tomorrow where the issue is expected to come under discussion.

The officials also said that the national security committee will give the final nod to go ahead with the plan to get eight submarines from China.

"Other proposals are under consideration as well. The Pakistan navy is also in touch with Germany, Britain and France to purchase used submarines," officials informed the committee.

Keeping in view the level of threat and the present status of submarines, naval officials said Pakistan needed the latest submarines.

The naval officials also revealed that France had refused to provide submarines to Pakistan.

They said there seemed to be various reasons behind France's refusal to sell submarines to Pakistan — including an issue of technology transfer. On the other hand, they said France was selling its submarines to India.

The naval officials rejected some committee members' concerns that Chinese technology was not of satisfactory quality. They said there was no such issue at hand as JF-17 has proven to be a world class military jet.

The officials informed the standing committee that Pakistan's defence relations with Russia were also improving.

On the other hand, there appeared to be a divide among committee members whether Pakistan should send troops to Saudi Arabia.

Defence Secretary Lieutenant General (retd) Alam Khattak said that the Pakistan Army would abide by the government's decision on whether to send troops to Saudi Arabia to partake in a military campaign in Yemen.

This was the first time that the defence secretary spelled out the official stance of the Pakistan Army on sending troops to Saudi Arabia to partake in a military campaign in Yemen.

His brief comment came in response to a volley of questions by committee members as to whether military troops would be sent to the Saudi kingdom.

Chairman Sheikh Rohail Asghar maintained that the Pakistan Army should chase terrorists regardless of their location but women members belonging to the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) and Awami National Party (ANP) had a different point of view.

Dawn

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Pakistan buy advanced S20 (Type 041 Yuan class) submarine (Source : UK's Jane's Defence Weekly). In lengthening, they can incorporate a nuclear reactor (In future).

S20

Comparison with Barracuda-class (Nuclear attack submarine)

France's refusal to sell submarines to Pakistan because an issue of technology transfer - in truth does not accept the ‘2nd Strike Capability’ to Pakistan -.

Same with Germany (Israel).


Type 041 Yuan class








Bonus : China Submarine Capabilities


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[Scorpion]

Is it nuclear capable? Nice maybe one day we can have ours through joint venture with Pakistan.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

Is it nuclear capable? Nice maybe one day we can have ours through joint venture with Pakistan.

Quote :

Does Pakistan Have a Sea-Based Second-Strike Capability?

Much about Islamabad’s sea-based nuclear deterrent remains a mystery, including its future submarine force.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
March 13, 2015

Back in 2012, Pakistan announced the creation of a Naval Strategic Force Command and hinted that the country now possessed a sea-based second nuclear strike capability.

Today, almost three years later, Pakistan’s alleged maritime deterrent continues to puzzle analysts. The overall consensus of opinion is that the country has not acquired a sea-based second nuclear strike capability just yet. Another thing that most experts agree is that the delivery vehicle of an ocean-launched Pakistani nuclear warhead would be a submarine-launched variant of the Hatf-7 (Babur) cruise missile.

According to a 2013 policy brief on Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program, Pakistan already indicated in 2005, when the missile was first tested, that the system was designed to deploy in submarines. The Hatf-7 is a medium-range subsonic cruise missile with a reported range of 700km (430mi).

Yet, the Washington Post notes, that Western experts, “are divided over whether Pakistan has the ability to shrink warheads enough for use with tactical or sea-launched weapons. (1) ” Jeffrey Lewis, a nuclear and nonproliferation scholar is a skeptical: “They may have done so, but I can’t imagine it’s very reliable,” he states.

Shireen M. Mazari, a nuclear expert and the former director of the Institute of Strategic Studies Islamabad, a Pakistani-government-funded think tank, acknowledged that the 2012 announcement may have been too premature: ”We are on our way, and my own hunch is within a year or so, we should be developing our second-strike capability,” he said in an interview with the Washington Post in September 2014.

One expert notes that in order to achieve a sea-based second-strike capability, “Pakistan will require a significant expansion of its submarine fleet [surface vessels would be too easy to detect], which will impose an enormous burden on the struggling Pakistan economy.” In 2013, the Pakistani government had to agree to a $ 6.6 million IMF bailout with various strings attached to what the country is allowed to spend money on.

According to a December 2014 article in India Today, a Sino-Pak strategic submarine project launched in 2010 – and suffering from various setbacks according to other sources – will “transform the Pakistan Navy into a strategic force capable of launching a sea-based nuclear weapons strike.”

The article furthermore notes that,

“Pakistan will build two types of submarines with Chinese assistance: the Project S-26 and Project S-30. The vessels are to be built at the Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) facility being developed at Ormara, west of Karachi. Intelligence sources believe the S-30 submarines are based on the Chinese Qing class submarines-3,000-tonne conventional submarines which can launch three 1,500-km range nuclear-tipped cruise missiles from its conning tower. A Very Low Frequency (VLF) station at Turbat, in southern Balochistan, will communicate with these submerged strategic submarines.”

According to globalsecurity.org, the Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) signed a contract in April 2011 to deliver six Type 032 Qing-class conventional attack submarines by 2016/2017. “Each can carry three CJ-10K submarine-launched, 1,500km-range land attack cruise missiles (LACM) capable of being armed with unitary tactical nuclear warheads,” the article notes. Yet, globalsecurity.org emphasizes that the reports on this Sino-PAK contract “must be taken with a grain of salt.”

To make matters more complicated, most reports note that the submarines purchased will be six Type 041 Yuan-class vessels. Pakistan’s current submarine fleet consists of two upgraded French DCNS Agosta-70 and three Agosta 90Bs (equipped with air independent propulsion).


The Diplomat.com


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1 - Shrink warhead is made : Nasr (missile)





Example ‘Tactical nuclear weapon’ like Nasr (missile)

The Atomic Cannon, at 280 mm, was the largest nuclear weapons capable mobile artillery piece manufactured by the United States. On May 25, 1953, a 280 mm cannon fired an atomic projectile a distance of 7 miles at the Nevada Test Site. The test known as "Grable," exploded with a force of 15 kilotons, similiar to that of Hiroshima.



Like Israel Second-Strike (Cruise missile Popeye Turbo SLCM type 1,500 kilometers (940 miles), warhead weighing up to 200 kilograms - 440 pounds - ).

Israel's Deployment of Nuclear Missiles on Subs from Germany


Cruise missile Popeye Turbo SLCM











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[UAE]

What.....8 subs that is huge. When will they be delivered to the PN?

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

What.....8 subs that is huge. When will they be delivered to the PN?

The first (2 or 3) before 2020.

 

[UAE]

The first (2 or 3) before 2020.

Not that far. What about us? No subs?

 

[Gasoline]

Now pakistan will get finally ‘a 2nd Strike Capability’. The submarines will be built with ToT.

That's really impressive .

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

That's really impressive .

Oooh, yes ! (*:*)

“Source : Rafi (ELITE MEMBER) - Pakistan Defence Forum

March 30, 2015 at 9:55 PM

Have heard from a very good source, that the ‘miniaturized water nuclear reactor/naval propulsion system’ and the various electrical systems have recently completed a key testing and reliability test, brothers assisted with various technical assistance.

It is all coming on line - with a version of S3 (Shaheen-III) -, being further developed with MIRV the first SLBM.

Congratulations to the whole nation, for the effective birth of Pakistan Navy Strategic Force Command.

NSFC (Navy Strategic Force Command) and our Second Strike Capability.”


Example : K15 pressurized water reactor (150 MW), Triomphant-class submarine (France)

The shell of the K 15 measures 5 meters high and 3 meters in diameter and weighs 80 tons.











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[Bubblegum Crisis]

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Quote :

China to build four submarines in Karachi

October 7th, 2015
Baqir Sajjad Syed

ISLAMABAD: China will build in Karachi four of eight submarines that it is selling to Pakistan.

Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told at the inauguration of the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Display Centre in the federal capital that the deal for the acquisition of submarines from China had been finalised and four of them would be built here.

He further said that construction of the submarines would simultaneously begin in Pakistan and China.

China, he said, would transfer the technology to Pakistan for submarine construction.

The implementation of the agreement would augment the existing submarine related capacity. One of the three Agosta 90-B submarines in Navy’s fleet — PNS Hamza commissioned in 2008 — was assembled at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. The other two Agosta 90-B submarines — PNS Khalid and PNS Saad — were also indigenously overhauled and retrofitted with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems in 2011.

The three Agosta 90-B submarines of French design form the core of Pakistan’s current submarine fleet that also includes two ageing Agosta-70 submarines.

Mr Hussain did not specify when the construction would begin, but said it would be happening soon. A training centre would be set up in Karachi for this purpose.

The minister did not either say which type of submarines were being purchased from China. It is, however, speculated that the deal was for Yuan-class Type-041 diesel-electric submarines equipped with AIP systems.

Navy has been pursuing different options for expanding its submarine fleet. Naval officials say that more submarines were needed to address force imbalance with India, which too is increasing and modernising its fleet of submarines.

Pakistan had earlier explored the options of buying submarines from France and Germany, but those deals did not materialise.


PRIVATE-PUBLIC PARTNERSHIP: Mr Hussain said the government would encourage private-public partnership in defence production to improve the efficiency of the sector.

“We can compete with the best in the world only through a national effort,” he said, adding that the government would extend all possible cooperation to private sector in this regard.

He said that this was “the beginning of a new approach”.

The minister said the country needed indigenously developed hardware, which was also technologically innovative.


NEW NAVAL SHIPYARD: The minister expected progress on the proposal for a new deep-sea shipyard planned in Gawadar.

“The summary for the new shipyard is with Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and his approval is expected,” he said.

The shipyard is planned to be constructed by foreign investors on build-operate-transfer basis.

“We have already earmarked land for this purpose,” the minister said.

Mr Hussain hoped that the new shipyard would be able to get substantial maritime related business from Gulf and Arab countries.


Dawn


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Speculations ‘2nd Strike Capability’ :

- Black arrow : 4 Babur (cruise missile)




- Red arrow : 2 submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM)






















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[UAE]

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Quote :

China to build four submarines in Karachi

October 7th, 2015
Baqir Sajjad Syed

ISLAMABAD: China will build in Karachi four of eight submarines that it is selling to Pakistan.

Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Hussain told at the inauguration of the Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Display Centre in the federal capital that the deal for the acquisition of submarines from China had been finalised and four of them would be built here.

He further said that construction of the submarines would simultaneously begin in Pakistan and China.

China, he said, would transfer the technology to Pakistan for submarine construction.

The implementation of the agreement would augment the existing submarine related capacity. One of the three Agosta 90-B submarines in Navy’s fleet — PNS Hamza commissioned in 2008 — was assembled at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. The other two Agosta 90-B submarines — PNS Khalid and PNS Saad — were also indigenously overhauled and retrofitted with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems in 2011.

The three Agosta 90-B submarines of French design form the core of Pakistan’s current submarine fleet that also includes two ageing Agosta-70 submarines.

Mr Hussain did not specify when the construction would begin, but said it would be happening soon. A training centre would be set up in Karachi for this purpose.

The minister did not either say which type of submarines were being purchased from China. It is, however, speculated that the deal was for Yuan-class Type-041 diesel-electric submarines equipped with AIP systems.

Navy has been pursuing different options for expanding its submarine fleet. Naval officials say that more submarines were needed to address force imbalance with India, which too is increasing and modernising its fleet of submarines.

Pakistan had earlier explored the options of buying submarines from France and Germany, but those deals did not materialise.


PRIVATE-PUBLIC PARTNERSHIP: Mr Hussain said the government would encourage private-public partnership in defence production to improve the efficiency of the sector.

“We can compete with the best in the world only through a national effort,” he said, adding that the government would extend all possible cooperation to private sector in this regard.

He said that this was “the beginning of a new approach”.

The minister said the country needed indigenously developed hardware, which was also technologically innovative.


NEW NAVAL SHIPYARD: The minister expected progress on the proposal for a new deep-sea shipyard planned in Gawadar.

“The summary for the new shipyard is with Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and his approval is expected,” he said.

The shipyard is planned to be constructed by foreign investors on build-operate-transfer basis.

“We have already earmarked land for this purpose,” the minister said.

Mr Hussain hoped that the new shipyard would be able to get substantial maritime related business from Gulf and Arab countries.


Dawn


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Speculations ‘2nd Strike Capability’ :

- Black arrow : 4 Babur (cruise missile)




- Red arrow : 2 submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM)






















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The dolphin or the scorpion. Chinese subs are yet to mature.

 

[Bubblegum Crisis]

The dolphin or the scorpion. Chinese subs are yet to mature.

It's much more complicated than that.

France, which manufactures the Scorpène-class, and Germany, the Dolphin, have both refused the necessary changes to accommodate the naval cruise missile Babur for a Second Nuclear Strike Capability. And the transfer of complete technology, particularly the AIP.

France being itself a nuclear state, it can not accept a new nuclear-capable player in the game (Oceans). In this very small team - countries with nuclear deterrence - less it is, better it is.

As for Germany, it would not establish a Muslim country second-strike capability could threaten Israel (The guilt of history).

No it's much better as well, the Chinese have reached 90% (2015) Western level in the manufacture of submarine. Furthermore the model they offer, with total transfer of technology (ToT), is much bigger. It will capable of carrying a combined total of up to 4 a long-range subsonic cruise missiles and SLCMs with nuclear warhead, and mastery of vertical launch system (VLS) - Cold launch -.

Serve as technological expertise in the range well above the Scorpène-class and Dolphin class. Will after modification in its dimensions host a first nuclear reactor in the future.


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