Greece to ask for NATO support in dispute with Turkey

[Lieutenant]

What is the chance for Greece against the Turkish navy.

 

[space cadet]

Greek Navy plays catch-up with Turkey in naval development

• Salim Kahraman
• Aug 12 2019 09:46 Gmt+3
• Last Updated On: Aug 14 2019 12:39 Gmt+3

Turkey’s independent foreign policy in the eastern Mediterranean requires some serious muscle, and the Turkish Navy and defence industry have stepped up to make some advances in recent years.
Having been held back by the pressures of the 2008 global economic crisis, the Greek Navy is now racing to catch up with its Aegean neighbour, as the pair’s diverging aims in the seas around Greece, Cyprus and Turkey have sparked a growing rivalry.
Turkey’s Barbaros research vessel and the Fatih and Yavuz drilling vessels continue to search for hydrocarbon resources around the island of Cyprus, despite objections by Greece and Cyprus, and EU sanctions.
The three vessels, accompanied by Turkish naval ships, are currently looking for gas off divided island.
Turkey is also planning to send another research vessel, the Oruçreis, to the region. According to Greek media, this ship will conduct research in an area south of the Greek island of Kastellorizo, part of the eastern Mediterranean the Greeks also claim rights to. This is another step that may increase tensions in the region.
Turkey is using the most modern elements of its naval force in the eastern Mediterranean in a display of power. Most of these are the Ada-class corvettes and Kılıç-class fast patrol boats, both of which were either designed or constructed in Turkey.
The new domestically produced TB-2 Bayraktar armed drones, recently acquired by the Turkish Navy, have increasingly been involved in operations in the eastern Mediterranean.
The Turkish Navy augmented its force of surface fleet with Ada-class corvettes and Tuzla-class patrol ships and replaced its outdated amphibious landing fleet, logistic support vessels and submarine rescue ships with modern updates. It has also modernised the aging Gabya and Barbaros-type frigates and strengthened its naval air force with new helicopters, maritime patrol aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles.
Also, construction is underway of the TCG Anadolu, the first of two multi-purpose amphibious assault ships, the TCG Istanbul, the first vessel of four Istif-class frigates, and the construction of the first three of six Reis-class submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion system and TCG Ufuk intelligence ships.
The first TF-2000 air-defence warfare destroyer is scheduled to be put into service in 2027. The design process of the seven-ship project is still in progress, with final tests being conducted on important components designed for the ship - the ÇAFRAD Multipurpose Phase Index Radar and Atmaca Navy Missiles.
A cruise missile for use against land targets, the Gezgin, is still in the development phase.
The Turkish Navy has experienced a golden age in terms of indigenous weapons and shipbuilding projects.
As Turkey developed its sea power, Greece was hamstrung by a major economic crisis starting in 2008 that forced it to neglect its navy, but in recent years, has made remarkable progress.
The Greek Navy gave priority to the acquisition of submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion systems, which allow non-nuclear vessels to operate without access to surface oxygen.
Five submarines entered service between 2010 and 2016, four of which are modern Papanikolis-class vessels that are considered a major threat to surface vessels.
Turkey's first submarine with this capacity, the TCG Piri Reis, will only enter service later this year and will take a few years before it is fully ready for service.
The Greek Navy is also making efforts to strengthen its naval air force. In May, it reactivated a P-3 maritime patrol aircraft with the help of American defence giant Lockheed Martin as an interim solution. Lockheed Martin has also been given the task of modernising the other aircraft in the Greek fleet.
Last month the U.S. State Department cleared a possible $600 million foreign military sale of seven MH-60R Seahawk multi-purpose helicopters to Athens.
The Greek Navy is also preparing to receive the first of two new Roussen-class fast patrol boats this year, after a 10-year delay due to financial problems. This ship started tests earlier this year and is expected to start service at the end of the year, with the seventh boat beginning active service by next year.
Athens is reportedly negotiating with French government and French naval defence manufacturer Naval Group for the purchase of up to four Belharra-class frigates, a move that could resolve the Greek Navy’s 10-year search for a multi-purpose frigate.
Greece is also reportedly interested in buying second hand warships such as an Australian Adelaide-class vessel, and in leasing French FREMM-class frigates.
Dr. Micha'el Tanchum, a senior associate fellow at the Austrian Institute for European and Security Studies and a non-resident fellow at the Strategic Studies Centre at Başkent University, said that even though Turkish Navy has undergone impressive modernisation, Greece still holds the geographic advantage.
“Greece has an advantage over Turkey because Turkey must divide its attention between the Black Sea maritime domain as well as the Aegean/eastern Mediterranean maritime domain,” he said.
But Turkey’s acquisition of amphibious assault ships could be a game-changer, he said. The Turkish Navy will be more formidable naval challenge when the assault ship TCG Anadolu becomes operational in 2021.
“TCG Anadolu is capable of sailing non-stop for 30 days and is able to transport a battalion-sized unit of 1,000 troops along with their vehicles, including battle tanks, for an amphibious landing,” he said.
“A blue-water power projection vessel par excellence, the TCG Anadolu will augment Turkey's offensive capabilities in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean,” Tanchum said.
“From this point of view, the Greek Navy faces a one-to-two-year time window before its naval strength vis-à-vis Turkey will experience a relative decline. This further incentivises Greece to take a more assertive approach in the eastern Mediterranean.”
Marine security expert Mehmet Cem Demirci noted that Greece’s efforts to bolster its navy had faced serious hurdles caused by the economic crisis, but that it had been receiving strong political support internationally.
“Although the Hellenic Navy is experiencing one of the worst times in terms of modernization and new shipbuilding projects due to the country's economic crisis, Greece is politically experiencing one of its best eras,” he said.
“Greece has been provided with EU support, strengthened its partnerships with countries in the region and formalized U.S. support through the East Med Act 2019, known as the Menendez bill, for the struggle over energy resources in the Eastern Mediterranean,” he added.
“This political support is likely to turn into military aid if necessary. For example, Israel is building a long-range marine radar system in eastern Crete to monitor maritime traffic in the Eastern Mediterranean,” he said.

 

[space cadet]

The subs the Greek's have are very dangerous, difficult to track, but I think they would need help in taking on Turkey, and likely would get it.

 

[Falcon29]

You said:





If you can elaborate pls.

You are implying we are observing Islam so you should come up with plenty of reasons. I will start with a simple but grave example, we do not have shura based Islamic system and our rulers came into power with the help of colonial powers. These rulers are clan based and there is no shura that chose them.

 

[Falcon29]

I don't think it's a good idea to ask him to elaborate. Some people want an argument, it's not constructive with some people.

I asked you to give me one example where we(as in the United States) did one positive thing in the Middle East(minus Israel) aimed at developing the nations there and/or assisting them in their security. You could not give me one. So maybe you're indifferent towards that but it doesn't make my point 'not constructive'.

 

[Falcon29]

I do not believe we should interject God or religion when it comes to politics. What brings us together is common interest period.

Well that's what you believe, that's not what the Prophet or God ordained. So are you not Muslim? If this is how you guys who rule us(the clans and their supporters) think, then you are not fit to rule Muslim nations and must be overthrown. God/religion leads people to the right path and produces God conscious people. And a God conscious Muslim needs to rule Muslims and not the other way around. Those God conscious Muslims need to work to develop their nations and provide security for their people. And work to produce a healthy society that observes laws of Islam. We can't have non-Islamic norms or lifestyle.

Non-Islamic lifestyle doesn't mean drinking, premarital relations, etc.... You don't have to do that to go into a non-Islamic lifestyle. It simply means losing track of the purpose of life and having beliefs that life is about enjoyement/fun and God is in second place behind all of that.

 

[space cadet]

I asked you to give me one example where we(as in the United States) did one positive thing in the Middle East(minus Israel) aimed at developing the nations there and/or assisting them in their security. You could not give me one. So maybe you're indifferent towards that but it doesn't make my point 'not constructive'.

You assume I agree with US policy in the Middle East

 

[Berke2]

Politics without religion is just secularism and man made laws. We are Muslims not westerners. Our religion encompasses things all the way from personal deeds up to how we should govern.

You can read a book about the Prophet's (pbuh) life and you can clearly see that religion and politics are mixed. The same with the rashidun caliphate afterwards. And they were the best generation of Muslims. Secularism and Islam are polar opposites, they don't mix. Turkey is a good example of what removing religion from politics does to a nation. Those guys even banned hijab at one point until Erdogan reversed it.

 

[Falcon29]

You assume I agree with US policy in the Middle East

I don't my friend, but it was just a point I wanted to make with our earlier discussion. To be honest it is not about agree to disagree but rather that about right and wrong. We have wronged the people there and could have developed a great relationship with them and realized our economic potential had we not adopted these strange policies for decades.

 

[Scorpion]

You are implying we are observing Islam so you should come up with plenty of reasons. I will start with a simple but grave example, we do not have shura based Islamic system and our rulers came into power with the help of colonial powers. These rulers are clan based and there is no shura that chose them.

So you are implying that we should overthrow those so called rulers and turn the entire region into another chaos?

 

[Falcon29]

Politics without religion is just secularism and man made laws. We are Muslims not westerners. Our religion encompasses things all the way from personal deeds up to how we should govern.

You can read a book about the Prophet's (pbuh) life and you can clearly see that religion and politics are mixed. The same with the rashidun caliphate afterwards. And they were the best generation of Muslims. Secularism and Islam are polar opposites, they don't mix. Turkey is a good example of what removing religion from politics does to a nation. Those guys even banned hijab at one point until Erdogan reversed it.

Well said, the thing is many Muslims associate Islam with corruption or violence today. They think Islam is like the Saudi scholars in the 80's who they believe were employed by the government for a 'sahwa' or 'awakening' program set up by the government to counter Iranian Islamic revolution. Or they associate it with Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood or ISIS. So when it comes to Muslim Brotherhood they see it as like democratic Muslims who just want power. And with AQ/ISIS they think fanatics and violence. And the other 'Islam' ie the governments employing scholars to get people to cherish their rule. So we can't blame such Muslims when they see all of these associated with supposed puritanical way of Islam.

What Muslims need to understand is they haven't seen Islam yet. Because simply all these entities do not have a single good Muslim leading them. Even if they may have a few good here and there, they are misguided and don't understand much of Islam is not allowing the shaytaan to entice you to desires/bad habits of this life. Such an example is issue where you see someone and are good to each other in face but once everyone leaves an event half of the people back bite about each other and smear other people they saw at the event. So let's say you have a community event, 500 people attend, then some friends go leave and after they had left these friends talk between each other about someone or more than person and smear them behind their backs for no reason other than caving in to the desire to feel like you have something to talk about or want to be the bad boy or bad girl of the community since it makes you center of attention.

That's just one example, but so many Muslims overlook this and think it is not relevant or important to your character and they are mightily wrong. It's a huge deal to the Lord and shows a major flaw in character. An observing Muslim can't have such a character, it's impossible. Yet many Muslims will claim to be observing and have such flaws, they are lying to themselves and are not observing.

Muslims have not seen the beauty of Islam and the truth of the Lord that guides people to the right path. When they see a good person they will realize the beauty of God.

So you are implying that we should overthrow those so called rulers and turn the entire region into another chaos?

I do not think now is a good time to overthrow them. I see many of them toppling themselves. Whether by angering their populations or getting dragged into wars. What I am saying is they are not allowed nor fit to rule Muslims and in perfect case scenario would be overthrown long ago. But so many Muslims are misguided and support them so it makes it chaotic to try that today. And it is not good to create fitnah it in this environment.

All that being said, the region is already in major chaos and will continue to face such tribulations because of poor leadership in all squares of society such as politics, religion and social square.

 

[Scorpion]

Well that's what you believe, that's not what the Prophet or God ordained. So are you not Muslim? If this is how you guys who rule us(the clans and their supporters) think, then you are not fit to rule Muslim nations and must be overthrown. God/religion leads people to the right path and produces God conscious people. And a God conscious Muslim needs to rule Muslims and not the other way around. Those God conscious Muslims need to work to develop their nations and provide security for their people. And work to produce a healthy society that observes laws of Islam. We can't have non-Islamic norms or lifestyle.

Non-Islamic lifestyle doesn't mean drinking, premarital relations, etc.... You don't have to do that to go into a non-Islamic lifestyle. It simply means losing track of the purpose of life and having beliefs that life is about enjoyement/fun and God is in second place behind all of that.

The Saudi state is 300 years old my friend, if it did not rule according to the well of the people it wont last this long. I do not know why you assume Saudi Arabia has the capacity to fight left and right in the neighboring Muslim countries and have them in order! We in Saudi Arabia live in an Islamic country that rules based on the ruling of Islam. Why do I have to go around and impose that on others? Why should we also bear the responsibility of what is happening in the Muslim countries? We live in a different world now. Every country has its own leaders and it would be illogical to interfere in those countries and have them go against their well. We can talk to bridge the gaps and reach common interest but nothing we can do pass that. While I understand your zeal but most of what you are asking is very inapplicable. I think what should be done is to have a dialogue to discuss the challenges we face and probably come to a conclusion but overall the most Islamic country on face of the earth is Saudi Arabia.

 

[Scorpion]

Politics without religion is just secularism and man made laws. We are Muslims not westerners. Our religion encompasses things all the way from personal deeds up to how we should govern.

You can read a book about the Prophet's (pbuh) life and you can clearly see that religion and politics are mixed. The same with the rashidun caliphate afterwards. And they were the best generation of Muslims. Secularism and Islam are polar opposites, they don't mix. Turkey is a good example of what removing religion from politics does to a nation. Those guys even banned hijab at one point until Erdogan reversed it.

Politics is different than social rulings. You basically act according to your moral anchors that is driven from Islam when it comes to politics.

 

[Falcon29]

The Saudi state is 300 years old my friend, if it did not rule according to the well of the people it wont last this long. I do not know why you assume Saudi Arabia has the capacity to fight left and right in the neighboring Muslim countries and have them in order! We in Saudi Arabia live in an Islamic country that rules based on the ruling of Islam. Why do I have to go around and impose that on others? Why should we also bear the responsibility of what is happening in the Muslim countries? We live in a different world now. Every country has its own leaders and it would be illogical to interfere in those countries and have them go against their well. We can talk to bridge the gaps and reach common interest but nothing we can do pass that. While I understand your zeal but most of what you are asking is very inapplicable. I think what should be done is to have a dialogue to discuss the challenges we face and probably come to a conclusion but overall the most Islamic country on face of the earth is Saudi Arabia.

I am talking about greater Arab world and not Saudi Arabia, Scorpion.

Politics is different than social rulings. You basically act according to your moral anchors that is driven from Islam when it comes to politics.

I agree with the bolded part, but what I don't agree with is that leaders in greater Arab world act according to moral anchors driven from Islam. I don't think they are much driven by Islam when it comes to their decision making in general.

 

[Berke2]

Politics is different than social rulings. You basically act according to your moral anchors that is driven from Islam when it comes to politics.

What do you mean by politics then bro? I'm confused. It looks you agree with me but at the same time you don't.