India Is Buying The Wrong Warplanes | World Defense

India Is Buying The Wrong Warplanes

BATMAN

MEMBER
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
952
Reactions
941 16
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Article is written by an Indian... now suddenly Aircrafts of InAF are failing India vs China!
Just an year ago, InAF was able to shot down F-16 blk52 with their vintage mig-21. Now if InAF decides to buy F-16, that will make all of Indian claims doubtful.


India Is Buying The Wrong Warplanes For Fighting China

The Indian Air Force needs new fighters. It needed them pretty badly before the current conflict with China over a stretch of the Himalayas that both countries claim. Now it needs them even worse.

On Monday, Chinese forces killed 20 Indian soldiers in a skirmish along the disputed India-China border running through the towering mountain range. Forty-three Chinese soldiers also were injured or died, according to press reports.

So it should come as no surprise that India this week reportedly placed a $780 million order with Russia for 33 fighters, enough to equip or reequip two squadrons. What’s weird is which fighter types New Delhi reportedly is buying.

The Indian order includes 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s, according to press reports. But one aviation expert believes the Sukhois in particular are a poor fit for mountain patrols.


The Indian Air Force reportedly long had planned to buy the extra planes to bolster the service’s existing arsenal of around 230 Su-30s and 60 MiG-29s. The air arm also plans, in coming years, to buy 83 locally-made Tejas light fighters as well as 144 foreign-made medium fighters.

All the new fighters—the Sukhois, MiGs, Tejas and medium fighters—are part of an effort to grow the air force from 28 front-line squadrons to 40, the number New Delhi considers adequate to fight both Pakistan and China at the same time.

Those 28 squadrons fly a bewildering variety of fighters, including Indian- and Russian-made types, French Mirage 2000s and Rafales and European Jaguars.

The Rafale, Su-30 and MiG-29 are candidates for the medium-fighter requirements. American firms Lockheed Martin LMT and Boeing BA also are vying for the multi-billion-dollar contract with, respectively, a highly upgraded F-16 and the F/A-18E/F. Swedish company Saab is offering its Gripen fighter.

Tom Cooper, an author and aviation expert, expressed his surprise that the Indian air force reportedly wants Su-30s and MiG-29s to meet its emergency requirement for a couple squadrons worth of jets. The Su-30, while seemingly impressive on paper, lacks performance and combat capability compared to Western models.

“Your air force has got 200 to 250 Su-30s,” Cooper pointed out on Facebook. “Still, when you want to bomb a terrorist gang in the neighboring country, you need almost 40-year-old Mirage 2000s, instead.”

Cooper was referring to the February 2019 clash between Indian and Pakistani forces over disputed Kashmir, roughly in the same region where Indian and Chinese troops would collide more than a year later.

Indian Air Force Mirage 2000s initiated the combat with a precision strike on a suspected terrorist base inside Pakistani territory. Pakistan responded with F-16s. When the dust settled, the Indians had lost a single MiG-21 fighter.

Those same Mirage 2000s had been decisive during an earlier conflict in Kashmir back in 1999. India’s Russian-made fighters had struggled to strike Pakistani bases high in the mountains. But a single coordinated strike by Mirage 2000s hauling Litening camera pods and laser-guided bombs succeeded in knocking out a key Pakistani headquarters.

“In these attacks, the target was acquired through the Litening pod’s electro-optical imaging sensor at about nine miles out, with weapons release occurring at a slant range of about five miles and the aircraft then turning away while continuing to mark the target with a laser spot,” Air Force Magazine noted in 2012.

Cooper’s point is that, for decades, the Mirage 2000 has been a more effective fighter in Indian service than the Su-30 has been. The Rafale, the French-made successor to the Mirage, likewise is among India’s better fighters. But the country has ordered just 36 Rafales.

The Su-30 not only lacks the latest precision air-to-ground ordnance, it doesn’t perform well from the high-altitude air bases that support Indian operations along the so-called “Line of Actual Control,” the border between Indian and Chinese forces in the Himalayas. Diplomats drew that line as part of truce talks following a bitter, bloody border war in 1962.

Kushok Bakula Rimpochee Airport in the Indian city of Leh supports Indian warplanes for operations over the Himalayas. The Indian army’s ongoing efforts to improve a road between Leh and an Indian outpost just a few miles from Line of Actual Control might be what incited the current clash.

Kushok Bakula Rimpochee’s 9,000-foot runway is situated 11,000 feet above sea level. The Su-30 doesn’t work well in those conditions, according to Cooper. “They're happy if the jet can launch while carrying two [air-to-air missiles],” Cooper wrote. “And brake-discs and tires must be replaced after every single sortie.”

The lighter MiG-29 apparently functions better in Leh than the Su-30 does. But that doesn’t mean the old MiG is the right choice for India. The MiG-29s New Delhi plans to buy from Russia apparently are outdated models that Russian workers will refurbish before handing over. “They are simply not up to the task,” Cooper said of the MiG-29s.

So why, when confronted with an encroaching Chinese army, does the Indian air force want Sukhois?

It should be obvious. Indian firm HAL builds the Su-30s under license in India. Buying Sukhois funnels Indian money to Indian companies. Although, as Cooper pointed out, with adequate political will India could license the Rafale, too.

“The experiences of last year should’ve brought the Indians to their senses,” Cooper said. “They could’ve bought more Rafales.”
 
Last edited:

Gripen9

THINK TANK
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
1,065
Reactions
4,132 153
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
They ran to buy derby missiles after last year's spankings, and now this adhoc random buy out of the blue?
These jokers don't have roadmap. Where does 12 extra Su30 and 20 Mig29 fit into their longer roadmap? If they increased their Rafale buy, I would understand. Can't HAL build extra Su30s? or they only assemble from CKDs.
I think Russia has this junk already lying about and banya wants it like yesterday.
 
Last edited:

Counter-Errorist

THINK TANK
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
853
Reactions
2,151 100
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
I think this was a deal in process that was rushed through. Modi and gang taking advantage of the situation to get their kickbacks released.
 

Old boy

MEMBER
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
66
Reactions
130 2
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
They ran to buy derby missiles after last year's spankings, and now this adhoc random buy out of the blue?
These jokers don't have roadmap. Where does 12 extra Su30 and 20 Mig29 fit into their longer roadmap? If they increased their Rafale buy, I would understand. Can't HAL build extra Su30s? or they only assemble from CKDs.
I think Russia has this junk already lying about and banya wants it like yesterday.
Some exaggeration in the report about performance of M2K in Kargil conflict where PAF was not present any where in the battlefield as fighting was well inside indian occupied Kashmir and Iaf had free hands to play in the field.
 

BATMAN

MEMBER
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
952
Reactions
941 16
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
I think this was a deal in process that was rushed through. Modi and gang taking advantage of the situation to get their kickbacks released.
Article refer to a recent order of last week.
What's not clear to me is that previously India used to assemble SU-30 in HAL, why are they taking delivery of complete SU this time and does it comes with Russian avionics?
 

BATMAN

MEMBER
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
952
Reactions
941 16
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
They ran to buy derby missiles after last year's spankings, and now this adhoc random buy out of the blue?
These jokers don't have roadmap. Where does 12 extra Su30 and 20 Mig29 fit into their longer roadmap? If they increased their Rafale buy, I would understand. Can't HAL build extra Su30s? or they only assemble from CKDs.
I think Russia has this junk already lying about and banya wants it like yesterday.
Many years ago, i read a news report that quite significant numbers of Indian SU are out of service, due to technical issues. Which means number of squadrons were not operating in full strength.
Perhaps the same situation is persisting and considering experience of 27th February, InAF had blamed every thing on lack of a/c availability. Hence all the panic is reflective in all their arms deals incl. haste in Rafaels and now this ordering of new a/c from Russia.
In nut shell the situation of InAF is worst than we imagine.
 
Last edited:

Gripen9

THINK TANK
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
1,065
Reactions
4,132 153
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
Many years ago, i read a news report that quite significant numbers of Indian SU are out of service, due to technical issues. Which means number of squadrons were not operating in full strength.
Perhaps the same situation is persisting and considering experience of 27th February, InAF had blamed every thing on lack of a/c availability. Hence all the panic is reflective in all their arms deals incl. haste in Rafaels and now this ordering of new a/c from Russia.
In nut shell the situation of InAF is worst than we imagine.
Yup IAF SU and Mig29 serviceability hover around 60% at best.
 

Zhengzhou

MEMBER
Joined
Nov 26, 2017
Messages
155
Reactions
314 3
Country
China
Location
China
they are buying the MiG-29s because Russia is replacing them with the newer, more advanced MiG-35s and Russia is selling their MiG-29s off to various countries and allies. as for the Su-30MKIs, India is constantly phasing out older Soviet models they been using, so the Su-30MKIs seem to be a cheaper alternative as per to constantly buying new high end jets.
the Rafales, on the other hand the Indians won't buy in huge quantities because they are to expensive for them.
my question, is what happen to order of 83 Tejas
 

Khafee

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
10,204
Reactions
18,872 893
they are buying the MiG-29s because Russia is replacing them with the newer, more advanced MiG-35s and Russia is selling their MiG-29s off to various countries and allies. as for the Su-30MKIs, India is constantly phasing out older Soviet models they been using, so the Su-30MKIs seem to be a cheaper alternative as per to constantly buying new high end jets.
the Rafales, on the other hand the Indians won't buy in huge quantities because they are to expensive for them.
my question, is what happen to order of 83 Tejas
You are missing on this thread:
 

Mingle

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
860
Reactions
1,445 5
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
Article is written by an Indian... now suddenly Aircrafts of InAF are failing India vs China!
Just an year ago, InAF was able to shot down F-16 blk52 with their vintage mig-21. Now if InAF decides to buy F-16, that will make all of Indian claims doubtful.


India Is Buying The Wrong Warplanes For Fighting China

The Indian Air Force needs new fighters. It needed them pretty badly before the current conflict with China over a stretch of the Himalayas that both countries claim. Now it needs them even worse.

On Monday, Chinese forces killed 20 Indian soldiers in a skirmish along the disputed India-China border running through the towering mountain range. Forty-three Chinese soldiers also were injured or died, according to press reports.

So it should come as no surprise that India this week reportedly placed a $780 million order with Russia for 33 fighters, enough to equip or reequip two squadrons. What’s weird is which fighter types New Delhi reportedly is buying.

The Indian order includes 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s, according to press reports. But one aviation expert believes the Sukhois in particular are a poor fit for mountain patrols.


The Indian Air Force reportedly long had planned to buy the extra planes to bolster the service’s existing arsenal of around 230 Su-30s and 60 MiG-29s. The air arm also plans, in coming years, to buy 83 locally-made Tejas light fighters as well as 144 foreign-made medium fighters.

All the new fighters—the Sukhois, MiGs, Tejas and medium fighters—are part of an effort to grow the air force from 28 front-line squadrons to 40, the number New Delhi considers adequate to fight both Pakistan and China at the same time.

Those 28 squadrons fly a bewildering variety of fighters, including Indian- and Russian-made types, French Mirage 2000s and Rafales and European Jaguars.

The Rafale, Su-30 and MiG-29 are candidates for the medium-fighter requirements. American firms Lockheed Martin LMT and Boeing BA also are vying for the multi-billion-dollar contract with, respectively, a highly upgraded F-16 and the F/A-18E/F. Swedish company Saab is offering its Gripen fighter.

Tom Cooper, an author and aviation expert, expressed his surprise that the Indian air force reportedly wants Su-30s and MiG-29s to meet its emergency requirement for a couple squadrons worth of jets. The Su-30, while seemingly impressive on paper, lacks performance and combat capability compared to Western models.

“Your air force has got 200 to 250 Su-30s,” Cooper pointed out on Facebook. “Still, when you want to bomb a terrorist gang in the neighboring country, you need almost 40-year-old Mirage 2000s, instead.”

Cooper was referring to the February 2019 clash between Indian and Pakistani forces over disputed Kashmir, roughly in the same region where Indian and Chinese troops would collide more than a year later.

Indian Air Force Mirage 2000s initiated the combat with a precision strike on a suspected terrorist base inside Pakistani territory. Pakistan responded with F-16s. When the dust settled, the Indians had lost a single MiG-21 fighter.

Those same Mirage 2000s had been decisive during an earlier conflict in Kashmir back in 1999. India’s Russian-made fighters had struggled to strike Pakistani bases high in the mountains. But a single coordinated strike by Mirage 2000s hauling Litening camera pods and laser-guided bombs succeeded in knocking out a key Pakistani headquarters.

“In these attacks, the target was acquired through the Litening pod’s electro-optical imaging sensor at about nine miles out, with weapons release occurring at a slant range of about five miles and the aircraft then turning away while continuing to mark the target with a laser spot,” Air Force Magazine noted in 2012.

Cooper’s point is that, for decades, the Mirage 2000 has been a more effective fighter in Indian service than the Su-30 has been. The Rafale, the French-made successor to the Mirage, likewise is among India’s better fighters. But the country has ordered just 36 Rafales.

The Su-30 not only lacks the latest precision air-to-ground ordnance, it doesn’t perform well from the high-altitude air bases that support Indian operations along the so-called “Line of Actual Control,” the border between Indian and Chinese forces in the Himalayas. Diplomats drew that line as part of truce talks following a bitter, bloody border war in 1962.

Kushok Bakula Rimpochee Airport in the Indian city of Leh supports Indian warplanes for operations over the Himalayas. The Indian army’s ongoing efforts to improve a road between Leh and an Indian outpost just a few miles from Line of Actual Control might be what incited the current clash.

Kushok Bakula Rimpochee’s 9,000-foot runway is situated 11,000 feet above sea level. The Su-30 doesn’t work well in those conditions, according to Cooper. “They're happy if the jet can launch while carrying two [air-to-air missiles],” Cooper wrote. “And brake-discs and tires must be replaced after every single sortie.”

The lighter MiG-29 apparently functions better in Leh than the Su-30 does. But that doesn’t mean the old MiG is the right choice for India. The MiG-29s New Delhi plans to buy from Russia apparently are outdated models that Russian workers will refurbish before handing over. “They are simply not up to the task,” Cooper said of the MiG-29s.

So why, when confronted with an encroaching Chinese army, does the Indian air force want Sukhois?

It should be obvious. Indian firm HAL builds the Su-30s under license in India. Buying Sukhois funnels Indian money to Indian companies. Although, as Cooper pointed out, with adequate political will India could license the Rafale, too.

“The experiences of last year should’ve brought the Indians to their senses,” Cooper said. “They could’ve bought more Rafales.”
Which plane India to buy?? Theior need is today not 10yrs after silly article.
 

Thorough Pro

MEMBER
Joined
Jun 21, 2020
Messages
125
Reactions
312 6
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Now blame the "Wrong" warplanes
Does not matter what they get, ultimately everyting in their hands would prove to be wrong.
 

Armchair

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
455
Reactions
1,565 56
Country
Bangladesh
Location
Bangladesh
Many years ago, i read a news report that quite significant numbers of Indian SU are out of service, due to technical issues. Which means number of squadrons were not operating in full strength.
Perhaps the same situation is persisting and considering experience of 27th February, InAF had blamed every thing on lack of a/c availability. Hence all the panic is reflective in all their arms deals incl. haste in Rafaels and now this ordering of new a/c from Russia.
In nut shell the situation of InAF is worst than we imagine.
Their FLANKER serviceability is very low. I think 55-60% maximum.
 

Counter-Errorist

THINK TANK
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
853
Reactions
2,151 100
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Update: US highlights CAATSA risk in Indian fighter procurement
by Jon Grevatt
29 JUNE 2020

The United States government has urged India to reconsider its planned acquisition of Russian fighter aircraft, a move that risks potential sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

In comments to Janes on 26 June an official from the US Department of State did not make specific reference to the Indian Air Force (IAF) procurement but said that India has not been safeguarded from possible penalties under the law.

The official said, “Without commentating on private diplomatic conversations, I can confirm that we urge all of our allies and partners to forgo transactions with Russia that risk triggering sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).”

India is considering the acquisition of 12 additional Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft (pictured) from Russia. However, the US has said it urges allies such as India to “forgo” defence transactions with Russia. (Irkut)

India is considering the acquisition of 12 additional Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft (pictured) from Russia. However, the US has said it urges allies such as India to “forgo” defence transactions with Russia. (Irkut)

The official added, “While we cannot prejudge whether a specific transaction would result in sanctions, it is important to note that CAATSA does not have any blanket or country-specific waiver provision. “There are strict criteria for considering a waiver, and each transaction is evaluated on a case-by-case basis. The Secretary of State has not made any determination regarding the significance of any transaction involving India.”

The comments come after Janes reported on 19 June that the IAF was looking to fast-track the procurement – valued at about USD1.4 billion – of 21 used Mikoyan MiG-29 and 12 new Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft to boost its air combat capabilities.

The move is partly in response to heightened border tensions between India and China. The IAF would aim to take delivery of the aircraft in 2022.

Update: US highlights CAATSA risk in Indian fighter procurement
 

Top