Lessons for South Asians: Why Countries Fight Wars They Cannot Win

Joe Shearer

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It must remain a mystery why at least two of the wars that we have fought among each other in South Asia were fought at all. This video is one I found thought-provoking. I hope my friends and fellow-members will find it so, too.

 

Nilgiri

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It must remain a mystery why at least two of the wars that we have fought among each other in South Asia were fought at all. This video is one I found thought-provoking. I hope my friends and fellow-members will find it so, too.

I am a personal fan of Mr. Hanson. He is an absolute delight to read and watch esp w.r.t current political climate in the US. Really really wish more news networks would bring him on to have a good interview with regularly....really smart, direct fellow.
 

Joe Shearer

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I am a personal fan of Mr. Hanson. He is an absolute delight to read and watch esp w.r.t current political climate in the US. Really really wish more news networks would bring him on to have a good interview with regularly....really smart, direct fellow.
Superb presentations. You may be referring to his commentary on the Trump victory. It was a tour de'force. Complete mastery of his material.

What did you think of his point of view above? Did you get an opportunity to watch the video?
 

Hithchiker

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"Mis-impression about enemy power or reaction"leads to the war..Agreed but then before engaging in a war how to accurately determine the same ?
 

Joe Shearer

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"Mis-impression about enemy power or reaction"leads to the war..Agreed but then before engaging in a war how to accurately determine the same ?
Transparency, openness and communication, and very robust people to people contact. If I may blow my own trumpet, what I have been suggesting to my Indian and to my Pakistani friends. Even before taking up economic issues on priority, before political issues. Even before considering a workable resolution of the Kashmir problem. Even before arms limitation talks. Before everything else.
 

Hithchiker

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Transparency, openness and communication, and very robust people to people contact. If I may blow my own trumpet, what I have been suggesting to my Indian and to my Pakistani friends. Even before taking up economic issues on priority, before political issues. Even before considering a workable resolution of the Kashmir problem. Even before arms limitation talks. Before everything else.
Yes , yes and yes..Once people communicate it develop affection that leads to anti-war phenomena ...But then with all the mistrust and history baggage who can ring the bell ? I believe IK can do that in our case while doesn't know on your side...
 

Joe Shearer

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Transparency, openness and communication, and very robust people to people contact. If I may blow my own trumpet, what I have been suggesting to my Indian and to my Pakistani friends. Even before taking up economic issues on priority, before political issues. Even before considering a workable resolution of the Kashmir problem. Even before arms limitation talks. Before everything else.
I believe that it has two effects: the civilian one of making misunderstandings and grievances diminish to their real proportions, down from the hyped-up levels to which motor-mouths on both sides tend to take them; the military one, of gauging far more accurately what is going on and the temper and the mood of people and administrators on the other side.

Some examples may help.

Speaking entirely from an Indian perspective, simply because it is easier to summarise in a couple of sentences, I believe that serious mistakes were made by the Pakistan Army and by the diplomatic service in 1965: we know that Bhutto wholly misled Ayub Khan about Chinese support, which was never forthcoming, and that was almost impossible to guarantee from China to Pakistan at that stage of the relationship, and also led him to believe that the whole of the state of J&K was pining for a Pakistani armed presence around which to coalesce.

On the military side, there was a wholly mistaken belief that the Indian reaction would be confined to Jammu and Kashmir alone, and that the "International Border" would not be affected. This was based on a faulty proposition; the Pakistani military leadership was not aware that a portion of the J&K border was not designated as the Line of Control, but was considered a firm fixed part of the border. When 12th Division (PA) attacked across this part of the border, therefore, they did so unaware that an Indian red line had been crossed. The ferocity of the counter-attack and the scope and breadth of the battle-front came as a surprise to the Pakistan Army. Their units were still not on recall-from-leave status in and around Lahore, when the news that there had been an attack by the Indian Army across the International Border burst on them. Both sides had no idea how far things would go; the Indian Army had a very weak defence of the 'Chicken's Neck', that part of the border around Akhnur and Jammu Tawi that was the prime objective of Operation Grand Slam, and the Indian Air Force assumed that the truce that had been tacitly agreed upon in a phone conversation between Arjun Singh and Asghar Khan still held, and lost dozens of planes parked out in open view on the tarmac with no clue that they were to be attacked in case of hostilities.

I hope members can put together their own narratives of this sort from these examples.
 

Joe Shearer

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Yes , yes and yes..Once people communicate it develop affection that leads to anti-war phenomena ...But then with all the mistrust and history baggage who can ring the bell ? I believe IK can do that in our case while doesn't know on your side...
I wouldn't trust any of the pols on our side as far as I could cast him (or her) in a ballista. It has to be a civil society movement; it must not lend itself to ribaldry and ridicule, as did Aman ki Asha. Honestly, I don't know what shape this should take.
 

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I wouldn't trust any of the pols on our side as far as I could cast him (or her) in a ballista. It has to be a civil society movement; it must not lend itself to ribaldry and ridicule, as did Aman ki Asha. Honestly, I don't know what shape this should take.
In the absence of any leader it will be mob...Yes the core will definitely be a civil society but it needs to be guided...Imagine the people travelling across Lahore, Amritsar and Chandigarh for an example..Getting visas easily ..Who would wish a war....
 

Joe Shearer

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In the absence of any leader it will be mob...Yes the core will definitely be a civil society but it needs to be guided...Imagine the people travelling across Lahore, Amritsar and Chandigarh for an example..Getting visas easily ..Who would wish a war....
I agree; there has to be a person or a group. There are a large number in India, and, from time to time, one reads about similar personalities in Pakistan, in equally large numbers. It is impossible that, unknown to us, there is not already a discussion between unknown groups of the concerned and engaged, and that these will not slowly knit themselves together into a meaningful persuasion group (pressure group may not be the right nuance; nobody will yield to seeming pressure, even deemed pressure, for fear of facing questions about their patriotism). Just that we don't know.

Let us hope that they have got together, and will get their act together, and also be able to prevent the crooks from coming on board and getting a free ride.
 

Hithchiker

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I agree; there has to be a person or a group. There are a large number in India, and, from time to time, one reads about similar personalities in Pakistan, in equally large numbers. It is impossible that, unknown to us, there is not already a discussion between unknown groups of the concerned and engaged, and that these will not slowly knit themselves together into a meaningful persuasion group (pressure group may not be the right nuance; nobody will yield to seeming pressure, even deemed pressure, for fear of facing questions about their patriotism). Just that we don't know.

Let us hope that they have got together, and will get their act together, and also be able to prevent the crooks from coming on board and getting a free ride.
Indeed...I don't know what either side of the crooks achieved by sabotaging all the peace initiatives..We need peace to invest in humans
 

Nilgiri

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Superb presentations. You may be referring to his commentary on the Trump victory. It was a tour de'force. Complete mastery of his material.

What did you think of his point of view above? Did you get an opportunity to watch the video?
Yes I watched it all, its a summary of earlier WW2 history presentations he has done.

Yes he has commented on Trump's rise ...in a way quite against the popular academic grain out there right now....but he takes a real deep look into the underlying forces at play as well that interest me more.
 

Joe Shearer

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@Nilgiri

Off topic, but very pertinent in the larger scheme of things: do you think you could get hold of those three videos on Gurumurthy and his 'Dharmic Model of Development' and reproduce them here? I want to work on them in your company and deconstruct them; to try and make sense of the model, if it can be done, and to try to reconcile it to capitalism, IF that can be done; and to try and fit in the need to accommodate alternative models of intellectual discovery and academic validation in the current system.

As it happens, these objectives have fallen out and listed themselves in increasing order of importance and relevance.

I believe that it may be of particular interest to our members, because these topics, the third most particularly, and most emphatically, the other two to a lesser extent, relate to all of us who are not charter members of the self-validating world of western-oriented academics. While I defend that world all the time, against those who have attacked it for being a self-referential system, it is increasingly obvious that there is a suppressed rage and desire for revenge among the formerly colonised peoples that may tear apart this world as we know it. We may be facing a world of competitive fundamentalism, and of rejection of mutually acceptable ways of thinking about things in general, and may be sliding into it without even being aware of what is happening.
 

Nilgiri

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@Nilgiri

Off topic, but very pertinent in the larger scheme of things: do you think you could get hold of those three videos on Gurumurthy and his 'Dharmic Model of Development' and reproduce them here? I want to work on them in your company and deconstruct them; to try and make sense of the model, if it can be done, and to try to reconcile it to capitalism, IF that can be done; and to try and fit in the need to accommodate alternative models of intellectual discovery and academic validation in the current system.

As it happens, these objectives have fallen out and listed themselves in increasing order of importance and relevance.

I believe that it may be of particular interest to our members, because these topics, the third most particularly, and most emphatically, the other two to a lesser extent, relate to all of us who are not charter members of the self-validating world of western-oriented academics. While I defend that world all the time, against those who have attacked it for being a self-referential system, it is increasingly obvious that there is a suppressed rage and desire for revenge among the formerly colonised peoples that may tear apart this world as we know it. We may be facing a world of competitive fundamentalism, and of rejection of mutually acceptable ways of thinking about things in general, and may be sliding into it without even being aware of what is happening.
Will do Joe.

In the meantime, this old documentary really struck a chord with me regarding this thread, how war really is so silly when you look at how the common people are, also very instrumental to development priority for South Asia:


@The Sandman you might find this interesting too
 

Joe Shearer

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Will do Joe.

In the meantime, this old documentary really struck a chord with me regarding this thread, how war really is so silly when you look at how the common people are, also very instrumental to development priority for South Asia:


@The Sandman you might find this interesting too
LOL.

The kids were ready and waiting, probably since midnight, to be 'woken up' in front of the cameras. It was interesting that they did a curtsey to their grandparents.

As you said, war is really silly.
 

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