Nato southern front | World Defense

Nato southern front

wareagle

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Hi everybody, I was wondering the internet in search of some videos of the air operations from the Carrier Cavour when I found this video.
Take a look at it, it’s a military comparison, it shows how out dated are the army of both Italy and Greece...
The problem is that this two are half of the southern front of NATO (together with Spain and Turkey) and use really outdated techs...
We should really worry?
 

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Well Germany, France and Spain can step up and funds some military deals but the issue is a bit complected with Turkey and Greece are at each other throat. Italy seems be well equipped! is it not?
 

wareagle

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Well Germany, France and Spain can step up and funds some military deals but the issue is a bit complected with Turkey and Greece are at each other throat. Italy seems be well equipped! is it not?
Well more or less, the navy is building some great new ships like the LHD Trieste, the new class of PPA and new U212 + 1 new LSS, the airforce also is not that bad, the big huge problem is the MBT for the army, because we have only 200 Ariete C1 MBT (but Italy has started the program for the Ariete C2 for other 200 machines for a total of 400 MBT)

The navy it’s also making plans for a new class of Destroyers for 13.000 tons each, new light Fregates for 3.500 tons each and 3 new LHA for 20.000 tons each.

There is a friend of mine that has made 2 videos about this topic:
-This one about the LHD Trieste, PPA, FREMM, U212, LSS
-this one about the new Destroyer DDX, nw light Fregates PPX and the new LXD
 

UAE

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Well Germany, France and Spain can step up and funds some military deals but the issue is a bit complected with Turkey and Greece are at each other throat. Italy seems be well equipped! is it not?
Turkey is technically illegible to join NATO. We might see Turkey out of NATO who knows.
 

Zaslon

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Wait, Turkey can’t enter EU, but it’s definetely part of NATO.
As you can see in fact on the official site of NATO Turkey is listed and I frankly don’t see Turkey leaving NATO any time soon
https://www.nato.int/cps/su/natohq/nato_countries.htm
main reason why Turkey is part of NATO is because it is a strategic location to launch offensives into the Middle East as well as countering Russia. many people believe Turkey will leave NATO due to the fact all of the Erdogan and his lunatic policies but he could not afford to lose NATO considering he has problems with Syria still and he is trying to pursue Russia to continue strengthening relations.
Italy on the other hand is the Southern Naval power for NATO, considering it has an aircraft carrier and LPD/LHD.
Greece is mixed with NATO due to the fact most support Turkey over them but Greece also has ok relations with Russia considering Greece has both the S-300PMU1 and TOR-M1s.
Spain is one that used to hold all the power in the area along with Italy, but due to the fact they retired their aircraft carrier in 2013-2014, really weaken NATO, a move they should of prevented.
 

wareagle

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main reason why Turkey is part of NATO is because it is a strategic location to launch offensives into the Middle East as well as countering Russia. many people believe Turkey will leave NATO due to the fact all of the Erdogan and his lunatic policies but he could not afford to lose NATO considering he has problems with Syria still and he is trying to pursue Russia to continue strengthening relations.
Italy on the other hand is the Southern Naval power for NATO, considering it has an aircraft carrier and LPD/LHD.
Greece is mixed with NATO due to the fact most support Turkey over them but Greece also has ok relations with Russia considering Greece has both the S-300PMU1 and TOR-M1s.
Spain is one that used to hold all the power in the area along with Italy, but due to the fact they retired their aircraft carrier in 2013-2014, really weaken NATO, a move they should of prevented.
Yeah you are right, I really don’t see Turkey leaving NATO any time soon.

Till 2009 the only big enough flat top Italian ship capable of handling fixed wing aircrafts was the Garibaldi that theoretically was a LHD but was called an aircraft carrier.
The Spanish navy has retired it’s carrier but has introduced the LHD Juan Carlos I, also that ship is capable of handling the harrier, so in case of need it could be used as a pocket carrier.

Italy has the Cavour, that by the time the F35B will be available, will be able to handle it so Italy would have a Pocket carrier filled with 5th generation aircrafts.
The F-35B is a stealth aircraft if weaponry is used only on the inside bay, but if also the external pylons are used it would have a radar cross section similar to that of a Rafale, that it has already quite radar cross section in the non stealth aircrafts.
The Cavour is able to handle up to 30 aircrafts in full war time, the most accredited airwing would be 15/18 F-35B and 15/12 ASW, SAR and early warning helicopters. (Rumors by insider says that Italy is about to change the balance of the F-35B, instead of 15 to the navy and 15 to the AirForce, it would become 22 for the navy and 8 for the AF)

Recently the Russian Carrier Kuznetsov has been relocated to the Black Sea and joined the Black Sea Fleet in order to perform strikes in Siria. The Kuznetsov in full war time is able to handle up to handle in full war time 22 fixed wing aircrafts and 17 SAR/ASW helicopters (Russia doesn’t have Early Warning Helicopters on the Kuznetsov) and the most accredited air wing is 18 SU-27/33 and 4 SU-25.
(These aircrafts is showing its age and in a video made by Binkov’s Battleground shows that the F-35 has a slight edge over the Su-35, the SU27 and 33 being somewhat worst than the 35 the edge of the Cavour’s aircrafts would be even bigger)

So in the Mediterranean on the NATO side there would be already 1 fully capable Carrier (the Cavour) capable of taking on the Kuznetsov + 1 27.000 tons LHD (Juan Carlos) capable of handling 6/8 fixed wing aircrafts + 1 33.000 tons LHD (Trieste) capable of handling 8/10 fixed wing aircrafts (by the time the F-35 are ready the Trieste will be also and will take the place of the Garibaldi)

The Subs capabilities of Spain, Italy and Greece combined outmatch completely the Black Sea Sub fleet and the ASW capabilities of the 3 navy and the 3 Airforce would be able of taking on the subs.

The Surface combatants of the Black Sea fleet wouldn’t be match for the new FREMM and he new Orizzonte Class Destroyer.
 

Zaslon

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@wareagle actually during the Kuznetsov's adventure in Syria we used 2 KA-31s aboard the ship to help provide early warning for the warship, but right now the Kuznetsov is undergoing modernization to fit our future ambitions, as soon as our future carriers enter service (Shtorm class). Kuznetsov will most likely be used for the training of future sailors to aboard the Shtorm class
Black Sea Fleet will most likely receive a Priboy-class LHD which is a bit bigger than the French Mistral and will use the KA-52K navalized Attack helicopters in the future.
Along with Turkey's Juan Carlos class being built, Turkey's ADIK shipyard revealed a LHD model of their own and has plans for an actual carrier but we will see how this plays in the long run.
not only will the Mediterranean feature carriers from 3 countries (Turkey, Italy and Russia) but will also feature destroyers and The Black Sea Fleet plans on building a bunch of newer ships.
Along with this move Russia has moved a 2nd Battery of S-400s to the Crimea for the BSF of Russia and the Black Sea Fleet has replaced their SU-24Ms with SU-30SM capable of carrying at least 2 P-800 Anti-ship missiles which could cause Havoc for Turkey and or Italy.
 

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Wait, Turkey can’t enter EU, but it’s definetely part of NATO.
As you can see in fact on the official site of NATO Turkey is listed and I frankly don’t see Turkey leaving NATO any time soon
https://www.nato.int/cps/su/natohq/nato_countries.htm
What I meant was Turkey is not really an active player inside NATO club, rather a stubborn member, a burden on the US for weapons and protection. With Erdogan in power, don't expect Turkey to comply with NATO in case of an urgent call.
 

wareagle

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@wareagle actually during the Kuznetsov's adventure in Syria we used 2 KA-31s aboard the ship to help provide early warning for the warship, but right now the Kuznetsov is undergoing modernization to fit our future ambitions, as soon as our future carriers enter service (Shtorm class). Kuznetsov will most likely be used for the training of future sailors to aboard the Shtorm class
Black Sea Fleet will most likely receive a Priboy-class LHD which is a bit bigger than the French Mistral and will use the KA-52K navalized Attack helicopters in the future.
Along with Turkey's Juan Carlos class being built, Turkey's ADIK shipyard revealed a LHD model of their own and has plans for an actual carrier but we will see how this plays in the long run.
not only will the Mediterranean feature carriers from 3 countries (Turkey, Italy and Russia) but will also feature destroyers and The Black Sea Fleet plans on building a bunch of newer ships.
Along with this move Russia has moved a 2nd Battery of S-400s to the Crimea for the BSF of Russia and the Black Sea Fleet has replaced their SU-24Ms with SU-30SM capable of carrying at least 2 P-800 Anti-ship missiles which could cause Havoc for Turkey and or Italy.
Yeah, i’ve taken a look at the actual Black Sea Fleet and your 3 main Surface ships in the Black Sea right now are 3 Admiral Grigorovich Class Fregates that it’s roughly comparable to the French FREMM, seeing that the French version is a little bit less armed than the Italian version, the Italian Navy will have 10 FREMM by 2019 (7already at service) so here we are 10 to 3 even if the other 3 Grigorovich that are currently being built are all deployed in the Black Sea, we are 10 to 6.
You have also 2 Krivak Class Fregates that are roughly comparable to the new light+ and full PPA that are currently being build and that by 2025 Italy will have 3 light+ and 2 Full (1 more light+ and 1 more full in option) if you don’t want to take on account the PPA, the Maestrale Class Fregate it’s similar, but we have still 6 of it on service, so we are 6 to 2.
You also have 1 Kashin Class Destroyer but it’s quite old, by 2022 it will be 60 if service for it, so our 2 Durant de la Penne Destroyers would make easy work of it and you have also a Slava Class Cruiser that I will admit it’s a formidable ship and my second favourite class of ship ever in front of the Vittorio Veneto and behind the Kiev class. But also this Cruiser has more than 30 years of service and I don’t think it would be able to resist the 2 new Orizzonte Class Destroyers.
All of the subs stationed in the Black Sea are 5 improved Kilo class and one normal Kilo class, the normal Kilo class it’s quite outdated has 28 years of service, the improved version is to the 636 standard, a slightly worst version than the one sold to the Vietnamese Navy, it’s quite good, but I don’t think it would outclass the U212 seeing that is considered one of the best conventional Sub in the world (but i’m Not sure about is because I’m not really informed on the submarine technologies).

About the Priboy Class LHD, i’ve Done some research and it turn out that it should enter service by 2025 and be a 22.000 tons ship, the Russian Navy will receive two of these but I’ve not found anywhere that this ships is already in construction or even financed yet, other than that I’ve not found any information on where it would be stationed.
Anyway, this ship would have to deal with a Trieste Class LHD that is a 33.000 tons LHD that will be in service by 2022 and already in construction.

I’ve done also some research about the Shtorm class Super Carrier and I’ve found out that is is only a proposal of project and it’s also still in research and development and that this part of the program will take 5 more years, so this still ready as a project (that means by 2023 if the assumpions of the Russian Navy is correct) it will still have to be accepted yet by the parliament, financed and built, so it will take quite many years to be built.
Even if at the end it will be built it will be probably stationed in the Atlantic Fleet where usually the Kuznetsov is stationed (assumption by Russians on forums) and there it will have to take on 1 Charles de Gaulle Carrier and 2 Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers.

So, if a war broke out (I hope not because I would like to live some more years and not be obliterated by a nuclear strike) and it’s Russia the attacker, the Black Sea Fleet would have to stay only on the Black Sea because the NATO south front navy would wait for it at the exit choke point where the Russian defence can’t be a threat and the Russian Airforce would be a lot less of a threat.
Even the Italian Navy alone could decimate the Black Sea Fleet If it would try to exit the Black Sea.
If vice versa, it’s NATO to attack first, for the Italian Navy would be suicide to try and enter alone the Black Sea, but if the Navy of Italy, Spain, Greece and Turkey enter the Sea it would be no match, the Black Sea Fleet would be destroyed because of the overwealming number of NATO Ships, the support of Greek and Turkish Airforce and the support of Turkish coastal/air defenses.

Anyway, I would like not to turn this post into a war between nations, so this will be my last post comparing the Italian/NATO navy to the Black Sea Fleet.
I took the Black Sea Fleet as a referance to compare the Italian Fleet because it’s the only Fleet big enough in the Mediterranean that would hold a good fight to the Italian Navy and that it’s not allied with Italy.

Don’t take this post personally and I hope that I don’t offend you, if I do, please tell me and i’ll deleate this post immediately because I really don’t want to start some hate in this beautiful community
 

wareagle

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@wareagle actually during the Kuznetsov's adventure in Syria we used 2 KA-31s aboard the ship to help provide early warning for the warship, but right now the Kuznetsov is undergoing modernization to fit our future ambitions, as soon as our future carriers enter service (Shtorm class). Kuznetsov will most likely be used for the training of future sailors to aboard the Shtorm class
Black Sea Fleet will most likely receive a Priboy-class LHD which is a bit bigger than the French Mistral and will use the KA-52K navalized Attack helicopters in the future.
Along with Turkey's Juan Carlos class being built, Turkey's ADIK shipyard revealed a LHD model of their own and has plans for an actual carrier but we will see how this plays in the long run.
not only will the Mediterranean feature carriers from 3 countries (Turkey, Italy and Russia) but will also feature destroyers and The Black Sea Fleet plans on building a bunch of newer ships.
Along with this move Russia has moved a 2nd Battery of S-400s to the Crimea for the BSF of Russia and the Black Sea Fleet has replaced their SU-24Ms with SU-30SM capable of carrying at least 2 P-800 Anti-ship missiles which could cause Havoc for Turkey and or Italy.
Just one more thing, I didn’t knew about the KA31 on board of the Kuznetsov, but I’m quite familiar with this helicopters, the main drawback of that machine is that its main purpose is Early Warning, but it’s sensors can track 20 aerial targets up to a max of 150 km from the helicopter it self, in the early 90’s it was the best at this job.
But right now it get shadowed by modern helicopters like the EH101A used by the Italian Navy capable of tracking 35 aerial targets up to 270 km.
With two KA31 the Kuznetsov is able to guarantee up to 10/12 hours of radar coverage, instead the Cavour most of the time even in peace times, use 4 EH101A that gives 24h of radar coverage.
 

wareagle

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Hi guys,
I’ve made a request to the maker of the other videos to make a comparison between the Italian Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet because it’s the closest and the finest equipped (for now) threat that could arose from the Mediterranean Sea.
It’s frankly really surprising discovering that in reality the Italian Navy would outclass the Black Sea in almost every aspect. (We are talking only about the ships)

The new Admiral Grigorovich Class Fregate it’s somewhat worse than the FREMM ships and the Black Sea Fleet will receive a total of 6 of this ships while the Italian Navy will receive 10 FREMM.

The Krivak Class Fregate it’s also somewhat worse than the new PPA class, the Italians will receive 5 PPA of the Light+ or Full standards while the Black Sea Fleet can count only on 3 Krivak

The only ship that could be quite a problem is the Slava Class Cruiser, there is one active ship in the Black Sea Fleet and could be somewhat countered by the Two Orizzonte Class Destroyers.

The Kashin Class Destroyer is really outdated, the first ship of such Class was built in the 60’s and it’s outclassed in every aspect by the two Italian Durant de la Penne Destroyers.

The Italians will receive also 2 new U212 for a total of 6 subs, these vessels are one generation ahead of the 6 Kilo Class subs used by the Black Sea Fleet.

The Priboy Class LHD wasn’t modeled in this comparison because it still isn’t financed, the Black Sea Fleet is said that will receive one one of such ship, but it would be countered by the new Trieste Class LHD already in construction.

Here there is the video made by my friend, if you want to take a look at it, it would be appreciated.
 
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