Thoughts ? Pakistan has built military power, India a military force

Hithchiker

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Pakistan has built military power, India a military force. And they explain: “Military force involves the mere collection of war-withal, that is, building up of troops and war-waging material; military power is about optimal utilization of military force. It entails an understanding of the adversaries and the quantum of threat from each, the nature of warfare, domains of war, how it would be fought, and structural military reforms at various levels to meet these challenges.”

An interesting Para read in times of India ...we have professional and knowledgeable members here ..Whats you take on this ? @khafee @Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @I.R.A @Tps77
 

Khafee

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This will be a very interesting debate.
 

jbgt90

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Pakistan has built military power, India a military force. And they explain: “Military force involves the mere collection of war-withal, that is, building up of troops and war-waging material; military power is about optimal utilization of military force. It entails an understanding of the adversaries and the quantum of threat from each, the nature of warfare, domains of war, how it would be fought, and structural military reforms at various levels to meet these challenges.”

An interesting Para read in times of India ...we have professional and knowledgeable members here ..Whats you take on this ? @khafee @Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @I.R.A @Tps77
Could you post the original article so i could refresh my memory?
 

Hithchiker

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Could you post the original article so i could refresh my memory?

To provoke a somnolent establishment into action, your message has to be blunt. There cannot be a more blunt warning to India’s political leadership and defence establishment than what Pravin Sawhney and Ghazala Wahab have delivered in their admirable and unsparing book Dragon On Our Doorstep: Managing China Through Military Power (Published by Aleph, Pages 458, Price Rs 799). Let alone China, India cannot even win a war against Pakistan. Yes, you read that right.

Sawhney, an Armyman-turned-journalist, and Wahab, a career journalist, are editors at FORCE magazine which focuses on national security, bring to the book sharp analysis and fresh perspectives to present a new strategy to strengthen India as a nation.

One of their key arguments is that the political leadership has to improve their understanding of military matters and involve the views of defence forces while making critical national security decisions. Another provocative take is that the Indian Army is a bloated force and has to shed flab, by reducing the number of personnel at its disposal. They call for a review of both field force and non-field force in the Army in order to move towards professionalism. The authors also want the Army to disengage itself from counter-insurgency operations, a task at best left to paramilitary forces, and regain its edge to do its primary task- fight the enemy.

Dragon On Our Doorstep could be a little misleading title since the authors are not only discussing the China threat but India’s defence strategy. In full play is Pakistan, Kashmir and the red menace, the greatest threat India is facing, as former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh put it. Sawhney and Wahab say that in terms of threat, Pakistan is China and China is Pakistan, pointing out especially the ‘inter-operability’ that both military forces have achieved.

So despite the strongman Narendra Modi at the helm, why can’t India defeat Pakistan in a war? Sawhney and Wahab make a critical distinction to win their argument. Pakistan has built military power, India a military force. And they explain: “Military force involves the mere collection of war-withal, that is, building up of troops and war-waging material; military power is about optimal utilization of military force. It entails an understanding of the adversaries and the quantum of threat from each, the nature of warfare, domains of war, how it would be fought, and structural military reforms at various levels to meet these challenges.”

Sawhney and Wahab write that the political leadership which would decide the terms of war engagement understands neither nuclear weapons nor military power. “Its responses would be slow, tardy, ad hoc and piecemeal rather than bold and substantive if the countries were to go to war.”
What else makes Indian defence forces vulnerable? Since the defence forces are outside the government, they have little interaction with the political leadership in peacetime and little say in the acquisition of conventional weapons. The defence services have little knowledge and understanding of their own nuclear weapons and Pakistan’s nuclear redlines. As India does not have an efficient indigenous defence industry, war supplies are not assured. All these, for an average reader, sound pretty scary.

There is more in store. Sawhney and Wahab write that the Indian Air Force has critical deficiencies in combat aircraft, training aircraft, simulators, air defence and network-centricity. “Most of all, the joint-ness in operations between the army and the air force, which is a critical requirement at the operational level for a short and swift, war is absent. This was obvious from the last localized Kargil conflict that the two services fought together. Instead of a single operation, the army’s operation was named Vijay, while the IAF campaign was called Safed Sagar.”

The authors also examine India’s foreign policy in relation to China and Pakistan and criticise Modi for his failure in not rising as a statesman prime minister to transform India into a leading power. Modi’s foreign policy, the authors say, is more optics than substance.

They say that ‘Act East, Think West’ policy is hampered by the perennial failures in strategic thinking and a lack of appreciation for military power. They pick on India’s foreign aid policy and say that if our neighbours are neither deferential nor deterrent there is something amiss. Sawhaney and Wahab argue that aid is seldom given to fulfill the needs of the recipient. It is given to meet the requirements- strategic in the case of nations- of the giver. And if the requirements are not met, you increase the aid or diversify it. They also say that India is the only country in the world where foreign policy with nations having disputed borders- China and Pakistan- is made with regard to military advice. All these criticisms should rile the defence establishment and the bureaucrats who have straitjacketed India’s foreign policy.

The other strong and significant argument that Sawhney and Wahab put forward is that the government of India should open unconditional talks with everyone alienated from the national mainstream, irrespective of their professed public positions. They caution that even the biggest of powers have not been able to withstand internal discord because they understand that the financial and military effort required to keep it in check debilitates the nation in the long run. Sawhney and Wahab are absolutely justified when the say that if India is able to win over the tribal population of central India and the people from the northeastern states, it will be able to free up a substantive number of its soldiers from internal stability and counter-insurgency operations.

So in the end, the message is that set your home right, the world will follow you. May be Modi can take note.
 

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Pakistan has built military power, India a military force. And they explain: “Military force involves the mere collection of war-withal, that is, building up of troops and war-waging material; military power is about optimal utilization of military force. It entails an understanding of the adversaries and the quantum of threat from each, the nature of warfare, domains of war, how it would be fought, and structural military reforms at various levels to meet these challenges.”

An interesting Para read in times of India ...we have professional and knowledgeable members here ..Whats you take on this ? @khafee @Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @I.R.A @Tps77
Wow interesting indeed . But My question is why India's Mill force not power?
 

jbgt90

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Dear JBG,

Please go through the summary at #5.

Do we really need a Navy?

Regards,
'Joe'
Sigh!!!! where do i even begin?
The IN is probably the least corrupt and the most efficient of all the forces , their teeth vs their tail comparisons says it all. They do so out of necessity not because they have the luxury. They have the least share of the financial pie , necessity being the mother of all .... :)

The IN is no where what they should be , we started operating AC way back from 61 and yet have a woefully small fleet air arm . Way back in the early eighties the IN told the govt they wanted to operate a two AC fleet, and the GOVT of the day heeded to their request. Then came the lost decade, mainly due to financial constrains, where nothing was acquired . While you could to a certain extent say we are trying our best to make up, but its no where adequate!!!
The domestic shipyards just do not have the space or facilities to build more , also there are political dimensions to this . For instance the we have been building the subs for many years ,the HWD sub!! Mazagaon docks had the full TOT and expertise to build more subs but due to a scandal , further constriction was stopped. With no fresh orders the crews who were trained to build these subs retired or were let go thereby loosing a golden opportunity and the skill set died with them . It was sometime in the early 90s when the Directorate of Naval Design was kicked into high gear and told that manufacturing in India was a priority.

Now lets talk about what IMHO (i am crazy) we need. we desperately need at least two medium AC and another two Heavy (75k) ton AC , while most of our oil comes from abroad and we being strategically located to see 70% of the worlds trade pass through a few hundred miles of our Andaman costs , it would be foolish not to have this at least to project power. especially with a growing Chinese navy we can hardly afford not to. Equally important is the sub arm, we need at least six SSN to cover our shores and and to hold off and engage any force which is a threat . So now the question arrises how do we achive these with all our shipyards running at full capacity and not being able to take new orders for at least ten years?
The Americans gave us an out, offering to lease the kitty hawk to us for a period of ten years , but the officers who went there were not to happy with the ship . I know (a little bird told me ) that even the Russians offered to build for us the something along the lines of the Kuznetsov , but the IN wary of the delays and utter lack of professionalism shown by the Russians during the viki episode grew wary. The IN has generally been closer to the US , and have to a great extent followed their doctrine a lot more closely then they did of the Russians , They asked and got a proposal for two AC to be built by the Americans along the lines of the Nimitz , but with desi nuke reactors (the Americans refused their tech) only to be turned down by the MOF due to the large costs involved. And the Barc saying it will take ten yrs to build this tech . Another alternative was to increase the number of maritime attack squadrons (one Squadron is based in Pune , flown by the IAF but operational control lies with the IN) The navy made a case for this squadron to be turned over to its personnel and acquire an additional two , but it was ferociously blocked by the IAF . The IN would have easily inducted a few SU30 MKI squadrons and had a great strategic platform , but alas this too was shot down.

In the subs dept there is a lot more secrecy , so most of my info is garnered by reading between the lines. while there were talks to buy the second akula , India also started talks for the rubin design bureau to build something with our own NDB, but things are stuck up in red tape from what i hear. Till that occurs we need to make do with our own desi built scorpion subs and hopefully we build a lot more then the six planed.

I could ramble on but i need to go put the little one to sleep .
 

Khafee

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Guys whenever you post something, as a rule, please provide a link to OP.

Thanks!
 

jbgt90

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Guys whenever you post something, as a rule, please provide a link to OP.

Thanks!
Did not quiet get you bro, should i provide a link to any posts i make here?
 

Khafee

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Did not quiet get you bro, should i provide a link to any posts i make here?
No, this was not intended for you.

Post #1 should have had a link, to the TOI article.

Just a gentle reminder for everyone, when ever you post a thread, please provide a link to the OP. Unless it is a concept, or a particular issue, then do consider Chill Republic, before opening a thread.

Thank You
 

Joe Shearer

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Great!
  1. I was hoping for this, in part, but expect much, much more;
  2. I'm coming to the other two services after this;
  3. I picked the Navy first for sentimental reasons, that you know about, @jbgt90;
  4. I hope others pitch in.
One more point: not exactly in response to @khafee, his request being about the OP, but still, in line with that sense, I want to point out that Pakistan knows what it wants to do with its Army and with its Air Force (not too sure about the Navy), but India does not seem to know that for itself for its own services. My questions are intended to highlight the missing bits and pieces of the political view of the utility of the Armed Forces, by showing what could be put in, and hasn't been put in, leading to the situation that the OP talked about.


Sigh!!!! where do i even begin?
The IN is probably the least corrupt and the most efficient of all the forces , their teeth vs their tail comparisons says it all. They do so out of necessity not because they have the luxury. They have the least share of the financial pie , necessity being the mother of all .... :)
It's good to get motherhood and apple pie out of the way right at the outset; fine with this, to, umm, 'clear the decks'?

The IN is no where what they should be , we started operating AC way back from 61 and yet have a woefully small fleet air arm . Way back in the early eighties the IN told the govt they wanted to operate a two AC fleet, and the GOVT of the day heeded to their request. Then came the lost decade, mainly due to financial constrains, where nothing was acquired . While you could to a certain extent say we are trying our best to make up, but its no where adequate!!!
Yes, but....

WHY, CHAMP, WHY?

What is the geo-political strategy? And where is the doctrine to support it?

The domestic shipyards just do not have the space or facilities to build more , also there are political dimensions to this . For instance the we have been building the subs for many years ,the HWD sub!! Mazagaon docks had the full TOT and expertise to build more subs but due to a scandal , further constriction was stopped. With no fresh orders the crews who were trained to build these subs retired or were let go thereby loosing a golden opportunity and the skill set died with them . It was sometime in the early 90s when the Directorate of Naval Design was kicked into high gear and told that manufacturing in India was a priority.
Different scandal, different perspective. However, it would help if you tied it together. (Noted that you'll do it later, I'm just putting down my own markers). Is Make in India necessarily a good idea? Or are we heading for the disastrous equivalent of the Great Leap Forward?

Now lets talk about what IMHO (i am crazy) we need. we desperately need at least two medium AC and another two Heavy (75k) ton AC , while most of our oil comes from abroad and we being strategically located to see 70% of the worlds trade pass through a few hundred miles of our Andaman costs , it would be foolish not to have this at least to project power. especially with a growing Chinese navy we can hardly afford not to.
Bluntly, what projection of power? What is supposed to happen? The Chinese over-run Nathu La and walk into Sikkim; do we then blockade the Malacca Straits? Really? with an average of eight Chinese units behind our backs, running riot over the bays and seas of the Indian Ocean? With the whole around-Australia approach wide open for both PLAN surface and submarine vessels?

Second, based on what do we get two and two? What are their roles, and what will they do specifically? Why two types? Why not one, why not three? Or four? Or five?

Equally important is the sub arm, we need at least six SSN to cover our shores and and to hold off and engage any force which is a threat . So now the question arrises how do we achive these with all our shipyards running at full capacity and not being able to take new orders for at least ten years?
OK, we progress. At least the subs are supposed to defend us from maritime attacks on our coastal shipping, our coasts and our vulnerable near-coastline industrial and population concentrations (all of Bengal's developed areas, Odisha, the high value Andhra coast, including Vizag and Vijaywada? Chennai, Bengaluru, the whole of Kerala, Mumbai, the whole of Gujarat).

Are they enough by themselves? What goes with them, and where are those units? What type of sub, btw? Are we putting in nuclear attack submarines, deep-draught diesel with AIP? Shallow-draught diesel with AIP? what armaments? do we have light-weight torpedoes for near shore encounters, and the ability to shoot many, at multiple targets, for sustained periods, for low costs? What vessels are likely to approach our shores with offensive intentions? Can we defeat them with submarine power? Is something else, or something more needed? What?

The Americans gave us an out, offering to lease the kitty hawk to us for a period of ten years , but the officers who went there were not to happy with the ship . I know (a little bird told me ) that even the Russians offered to build for us the something along the lines of the Kuznetsov , but the IN wary of the delays and utter lack of professionalism shown by the Russians during the viki episode grew wary. The IN has generally been closer to the US , and have to a great extent followed their doctrine a lot more closely then they did of the Russians ,
Whoa!

At one time, except for the Sea Hawks and Alizes on Vikrant, almost all of the Indian Navy was Russian! When did the transition happen? And what effect on our geo-political stances will these changed alliances have?

I am not sure that you thought deeply about the doctrinal similarity; an Osa Class raid on Karachi was very far from American doctrine, that depends on air power to do everything that they want to do to the enemy.

They asked and got a proposal for two AC to be built by the Americans along the lines of the Nimitz , but with desi nuke reactors (the Americans refused their tech) only to be turned down by the MOF due to the large costs involved. And the Barc saying it will take ten yrs to build this tech . Another alternative was to increase the number of maritime attack squadrons (one Squadron is based in Pune , flown by the IAF but operational control lies with the IN) The navy made a case for this squadron to be turned over to its personnel and acquire an additional two , but it was ferociously blocked by the IAF . The IN would have easily inducted a few SU30 MKI squadrons and had a great strategic platform , but alas this too was shot down.
Good points, but Poseidons would have been more to the point, I think; loiter time, armaments, and orientation to the mission specifics.

In the subs dept there is a lot more secrecy , so most of my info is garnered by reading between the lines. while there were talks to buy the second akula , India also started talks for the rubin design bureau to build something with our own NDB, but things are stuck up in red tape from what i hear. Till that occurs we need to make do with our own desi built scorpion subs and hopefully we build a lot more then the six planed.
More, please.

What specs are you suggesting? What roles are you suggesting?

I could ramble on but i need to go put the little one to sleep .
Great start, J, but would love you to get down and dirty.

Do I see a Think Tank in the making?
 

Joe Shearer

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@H!thchiker

Please keep prodding for more cogency, more details.

Hope other members will pitch in and keep our friend on his hooves toes.
 

Joe Shearer

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Any volunteers for the Air Force? And, after that, the Army?
 
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