What does being a liberal mean? | World Defense

What does being a liberal mean?

Hellhound

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liberalism by definition it has two core concepts on which it is founded equality and liberty .all the other ideas like tolerance,equal rights for every race,gender equality,freedom of speech,freedom of religion and even democracy stems from these two core believes.the idea behind liberalism is it is not static and it continues to evolve with the time, morals and new issues but for one to be called a liberal he has to believe in these two core concepts.

liberals were always the most hated bunch of society throughout the history and many of were even send to gallows and lost their most valuable possession.why?because they were the first one to challenge the deeply rooted social norms or religious believes of their societies.the believes like the flat earth or geocentrism.But had they or no one else challenged such believes in their time we would still be living in medieval era.No matter how much they were hated in their time It was always the liberals who challenged and changed their societies who brought forward the new ideas like democracy in front of people living in a monarchy or gender equality in a patriarchal culture.conservatives of that time hated them but now the whole world is reaping the benefit of the forward thinking of few minds.

while west now has the balanced amount of liberals and conservatives in their populace who can openly and easily challenge each others ideas .same can't be said about Pakistan or many other Muslim countries.here the conservative population is more dominant who consider liberals and their believes a threat to their society.which is halting the growth of these countries.

when ever someone talk about oppressed groups, gender equality blasphemy law or minority rights whole society instantly assumes that he is here to spread vulgarity in their women and destroy foundation of Islam etc and instead of engaging him in a proper debate people become defensive and start hurling personal insults or fatwa e kuffar at the guy.why is it like that when even Islam it self was the most liberal religion(also the reason of it spreading so quickly) of the period which gave the minority and women the rights which were unheard at the time and promoted a healthy debate culture.answer is because these guys or the guy teaching them islam has nothing to do with Islam all they want to do retain as much power over the other groups as they can.they don't care if it is immoral or even unislamic. same was the case with the Church they didn't put Galileo to house arrest for life just because he was disagreeing with them he was imprisoned because he openly challenged the church's power by repeatedly publishing his work on heliocentrism while he was told to abandon the opinion,inciting people to think against the geocentric teaching of the church and ridiculing a pope in the process.

so when ever these imam masjid and so called Islamic scholars like fazul rehman feel threaten by an idea which can loosen their grip on the masses. they use their fatwa power to turn the people against the idea.even if it is totally in accordance to Islam i.e tolerating other sects and minorities or women working outside the house .

ever increasing terrorism and radicalization of Muslim countries can only be ended if they adopt to the tolerant and liberal values of modern word .other wise they will be left behind isolated and devastated.its time we move forward and break these chains of century old mindset.

@I.R.A @Joe Shearer @H!thchiker
 

I.R.A

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Nice effort and a good writing >|

the idea behind liberalism is it is not static and it continues to evolve with the time,

So what would be the motivation, source and guidance of liberal people and liberalism? It must have born out of something?


liberals were always the most hated bunch of society throughout the history and many of were even send to gallows and lost their most valuable possession.why?
I get your point but that word "always" isn't correct in my opinion.

The problem with current Pakistani liberalism and the reason it faces so much resistance is, because its not genuine, its alien and bases itself on borrowed ideas and stems from an ideology and culture that is very different from Pakistan and its people. Liberal ideas are genuine in a society when they appeal the most common people and are meant for their welfare and betterment, any ideology that has spread, spread in the common people first. So Pakistani true liberals before working on the society need to work on themselves. As you said that liberalism is a continually evolving ......... that should mean it Pakistani liberals shouldn't have problems developing their own genuine liberalism movements, based on the needs of their society and their times.
 

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Nice effort and a good writing |
thanks bro.
So what would be the motivation, source and guidance of liberal people and liberalism? It must have born out of something?
motivation or source is thrust of human mind to improve everything it can and push the boundaries of current social and scientific norms further for the betterment of society or in some case experimenting or just for the sake of doing it .
The problem with current Pakistani liberalism and the reason it faces so much resistance is, because its not genuine, its alien and bases itself on borrowed ideas and stems from an ideology and culture that is very different from Pakistan and its people. Liberal ideas are genuine in a society when they appeal the most common people and are meant for their welfare and betterment, any ideology that has spread, spread in the common people first. So Pakistani true liberals before working on the society need to work on themselves. As you said that liberalism is a continually evolving ......... that should mean it Pakistani liberals shouldn't have problems developing their own genuine liberalism movements, based on the needs of their society and their times.
today's world is connecting of course people are going borrow the positive and tested ideas from other societies the ideas which help those guys to get there where they are today.most people see no need to reinvent the wheel as it is waste of time.problem arise when people are too rigid to change and are not willing to adapt to the modern world.that rigidity and unwillingness is reason some nation remains 3rd world while other jumps into the 1st world.modernization doesn't mean completely letting go of your culture but only shed those practices that are weighing you down.
japanese are great example here they never lost touch with their culture yet they are one of the most modern nation on this planet.funny thing is after reading about Boshin War i found out that they weren't always like that in fact it was once the most rigid society and imperials had to fight a civil war to implement modern ways.the ways which then propelled once a warring japan into a modern united japan we see today.

so my point being people are always inelastic to change at first but once you get some momentum they will jump into the band wagon.
now coming to the evolving point i think the movement should evolve according to the needs of the nation not the sentiments of public.for example given the traffic situation in pakistan we need to implement dubai or saudia like traffic laws here where they charge hefty fines up to 6000 riyals for violations like crossing the red light.now 6000 riyal is monthly salary of many people in saudia so obviously people didn't like the law at first(they still don't) but after the implementation of this law traffic violations are all time low.so you not always need to please people but to do what is best for them they may hate you now but will love you in future .now who is going to decide what is best for public for that you need to look around the whole globe and adopt the best practises from whole world step by step.
 
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UAE

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I have to make a claim that Islam was the one who came up with liberalism as it established social, economical and political structure that gives the right for pluralism.
 

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I have to make a claim that Islam was the one who came up with liberalism as it established social, economical and political structure that gives the right for pluralism.
true that bro islam came up with the ideas that no one in world even imagined at that time.but state that truth now and people will even cut your throat for just linking islam or prophet with word liberal.
 

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that rigidity and unwillingness is reason some nation remains 3rd world while other jumps into the 1st world.
First we need to be liberal enough to shed away these first world and third world notions, in my view these were designed by the looters, plunderers and exploiters who looted the countries and people (they call third world) to become the first world. Sorry it wasn't some honorable and peaceful mission ......... it was occupation and slavery of other native people. Your first world won't be happy if your third world breaks free of their clutches and starts dictating its own terms. i.e. to say that third world becomes liberal enough to put the exploiters in their place.

imperials had to fight a civil war to implement modern ways.
Your idea of liberalism involves bombing the people to accept an idea? Contrary to my view that any idea that doesn't appeal to local common populace is alien and is bound to fail. You want zombies or free thinking humans?

now coming to the evolving point i think the movement should evolve according to the needs of the nation not the sentiments of public.for example given the traffic situation in pakistan we need to implement dubai or saudia like traffic laws here where they charge hefty fines up to 6000 riyals for violation like crossing the red light.now 6000 riyal is monthly salary of many people in saudia so obviously people didn't like the law at first but after the implementation of this law traffic violations are all time low.so you not always need to please people but to do what is best for them they may hate you now but will love you in future .now who is going to decide what is best for public for that you need to look around the whole globe and adopt the best practises from whole world step by step.
That's governance champ ......... what liberalism has got to do with the laws and rules a state implements for its people? You are mixing up I guess.

Liberalism is equal opportunity for everyone to think freely and arrive at a decision for themselves.
 

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true that bro islam came up with the ideas that no one in world even imagined at that time.but state that truth now and people will even cut your throat for just linking islam or prophet with word liberal.
It is because of the terminology muslims are not willing to accept but the ideas are in fact driven from Islam. We can list many social rules Islam established which gives the right for everyone. Countries who claim to be democratic are using the same system muslims used to have centuries ago.

Who did come with the system of election for instance? It was Islam. We can go on and on pulling examples to prove the point.
 

Hellhound

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First we need to be liberal enough to shed away these first world and third world notions, in my view these were designed by the looters, plunderers and exploiters who looted the countries and people (they call third world) to become the first world. Sorry it wasn't some honorable and peaceful mission ......... it was occupation and slavery of other native people. Your first world won't be happy if your third world breaks free of their clutches and starts dictating its own terms. i.e. to say that third world becomes liberal enough to put the exploiters in their place.
i have no problems with shedding such terminologies.i used them just to get a point through as we are not conversing face to face.
Your idea of liberalism involves bombing the people to accept an idea? Contrary to my view that any idea that doesn't appeal to local common populace is alien and is bound to fail. You want zombies or free thinking humans?
oh no mate my idea is not to bomb the people but it is that what people always want isn't always the truth or best for them.like people in the past wanted to believe that world is flat and even killed for it but i wasn't the reality.had we believed them and stopped for their sentiments or comfort the modern physics wouldn't be here today.so what i meant to say is do what is best for the country regardless of what people think.

That's governance champ ......... what liberalism has got to do with the laws and rules a state implements for its people? You are mixing up I guess.
who said rules and laws can't be liberal in nature bro. take blasphemy law for example is it not by nature a conservative one and in my above provided example saudis went proactive despite the fact that such moves were unpopular in a country where driving rash was once a culture.they didn't tried to conserve such unhealthy behaviour and took some unprecedented actions against it hence i use it as example for liberalism and doing what is necessary no matter the public opinion.that's the thought process we need in our lawmaker.
 

Hellhound

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Who did come with the system of election for instance?
sorry for a tiny correction bro it was a roman system further refined by muslims and then again refined by west some more.
i completely agrees with rest of your post and heck bro we gave this world many musical instruments.but alas we went the other way and left the research culture which became the cause of our downfall and backwardness
 

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oh no mate my idea is not to bomb the people but it is that what people always want isn't always the truth or best for them.like people in the past wanted to believe that world is flat and even killed for it but i wasn't the reality.had we believed them and stopped for their sentiments or comfort the modern physics wouldn't be here today.so what i meant to say is do what is best for the country regardless of what people think.
I am confused ............. help me understand. Is it free thinking rational humans that liberalism has its main goal or is it a way to control people that liberalism wishes to accomplish? If it involves controlling people and their thought process, then where is that equality and opportunity in it and how is it liberal?
 

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I am confused ............. help me understand. Is it free thinking rational humans that liberalism has its main goal or is it a way to control people that liberalism wishes to accomplish? If it involves controlling people and their thought process, then where is that equality and opportunity in it and how is it liberal?
It is doing the right thing regardless of others feelings.this is when the issue is public matter like how to handle terrorism or hate speech.

But when it comes to private matters everyone should be free to think and act as he likes as long as his actions have no public impact.I.e he is free to like hitler or bin Ladin or dress like them. it is his freedom but as soon as he start inciting the public to kill jew or attack thats when his freedom ends and legal action should be taken against him.
hope you get my point now.if not feel free to ask for further clarification.
 

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It is doing the right thing regardless of others feelings.this is when the issue is public matter like how to handle terrorism or hate speech.
Legislation is done to control people ............ and not to afford them liberty. Hence again I see mixing up of liberalism and legislation. Liberalism in my view has nothing to do with legislation, it doesn't make any sense for a law to be liberal for everyone, there always would be people who would twist and break law or not like it.

But when it comes to private matters everyone should be free to think and act as he likes as long as his actions have no public impact.I.e he is free to like hitler or bin Ladin or dress like them. it is his freedom but as soon as he start inciting the public to kill jew or attack thats when his freedom ends and legal action should be taken against him.
hope you get my point now.if not feel free to ask for further clarification.
Selective liberalism is no liberalism ....................? So basically what you are advocating is .......... controlled liberalism? So how is it true liberalism? Can we even achieve true liberalism? If we cannot then what is the point of wishing for liberalism?

PS: A clarification ........ I hope you understand that this is all a debate and it has nothing to do with liking or disliking of anyone's thoughts, concepts, beliefs, ideas etc etc.
 

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true that bro islam came up with the ideas that no one in world even imagined at that time.but state that truth now and people will even cut your throat for just linking islam or prophet with word liberal.
An interesting thought, @Legend, and not as bizarre as @Hellhound feared it might sound. Before returning to the theme of liberalism, or Liberalism, and Islam, or regardless of Islam, I would like to remind ourselves of the essential difference in perceptions of Islam in the West, in Europe, specifically, and in the East, in the sub-continent that was formerly known as India! :D

So I shall watch with the greatest interest how this discussion develops, and hope to get well soon enough to join in.
 

Joe Shearer

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I have to make a claim that Islam was the one who came up with liberalism as it established social, economical and political structure that gives the right for pluralism.
This is a forgotten truth now, given the capture of Islam by the religious elite, and given the considerable distance that other parts have traversed while Islam was in stasis.

Ironic, really.
 

I.R.A

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This is a forgotten truth now, given the capture of Islam by the religious elite, and given the considerable distance that other parts have traversed while Islam was in stasis.

Ironic, really.
Sir what does your history knowledge and information tell you about the event ......... or the biggest reason of difference / cause of different beliefs between Shiite and Sunnis?
 
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