Why I Believe Muslims should leave the West | World Defense

Why I Believe Muslims should leave the West

Falcon29

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I'm one of those rare people among the Muslim/Ex-Muslim community, that argues for reverse migration of Muslims in the West, and I'll tell you why:

1.) Terror attacks will continue to persist- We can't deny this reality, with the political conditions overseas, there is an urge for revenge. But when you also account in the social conditions of Muslims in the West, they have identity issues, compiled with growing resentment from the Western society towards Muslims, is recipe for more attacks. And with more attacks, there is heightened discussion, surveillance of Muslim communities. And it will get worse from here on.

2.) Multiculturalism has failed- Muslims are not integrated well into the society. This is partially because Westerners are not susceptible to change, but mostly due to Islamic lifestyle simply not compatible with Western lifestyle. There are many Muslims who embrace the popular lifestyle, that don't really have identity issues, but there is a large minority that do, finding themselves in a struggle between deciding which way they should sway themselves. I personally believe, these identity issues can be solved if Muslims go back to their nations of origin. Since in the West, most Muslims only mingle with people of their same nationality. This is because they can relate to each other, as they share the same culture. Even if it is slightly Westernized, it is a Westernized-traditional culture in that sense.

There are Muslims however, who don't have this privilege of being around a big community of people they can relate to, and identity issues are created. They will then try to fit into Western lifestyle, it doesn't work, possibly because they can't fit in, but also because they are still unaware if they should stick to Islamic values, a combination of both, or abandon Islam completely.

3.) Middle East in Desperation- The Middle East is an incomprehensible situation. There are strong ethnic rivalries, but also inter-religious ones. The youth of the Middle East are very suspect to militancy, they are taking chances with their independent decisions that are very risky. Due to local crackdown, but also foreign militarism. There is increasingly pro-Islamist sentiment, if something in the West or in the Middle East occurs, such as deportation of Muslims, or Muslim minorities in West being under danger, or a Saudi-Iranian war in the region, or shift in direction of the Syrian conflict, ie many possibilities, this can cause many people to 'come out of the closet' and assist an Islamic revolution that could take place. Which could spark regional war or Western intervention, that will further cause problems with local Muslim communities of the West.

4.) Alternative Human Model- What is happening overseas, is a struggle. Not just a political or religious one, it is a social one. There are a group of people who don't believe in Capitalism, modern lifestyle, or the effects of Globalism. They are trying to prove to their people, that they can provide an alternative, functioning society, that will free them from oppression, evils of materialism and capitalism, etc....They want to prove you can have a functioning and religious society in the modern day where model of capitalism is prevalent. And these people are willing to fight for this society. This society appeals to some Western Muslims, but also some Westerns who convert to Islam. And it will continue sparking a divide in the West, if people with two different world views aren't separated from each other.

5.) Working from ground up- Muslims need to work from ground up. With the failed state of the region, it is better everything is let loose, hitting a low bottom, in which, Muslims must work from ground up to reform the society and provide a model that locals will accept. As they clearly aren't accepting the current model the governments of the world and local governments are providing for them. And I believe, Western Muslims can assist Middle Eastern Muslims in putting together technical and legal aspects for this society, that is compatible with Islam but also global economy. The Muslim Prophet Mohammed, did exactly this. He fractured the society of the Arabs, then worked from the ground up to form a new and different one. And succeeded on his part in at least temporarily uniting the society but also providing a model for Muslims to become great, powerful and thriving.

.......
.......

For these 5 reasons, I believe Muslims should return back home, as I see more benefits in that than the current state which is getting worse for Western Muslims. There is even a possibility Muslims will be separated from society and identified as a different and specific group, that will make Muslims feel alienated which can lead to worse situation in the future.

Please give me your thoughts on this situation and my write up

@WebMaster @Gabriel92 @T-123456 @Bundeswehr @djdefense @Redheart @others
 

Bundeswehr

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Multiculturism is the biggest problem. There are people for and against it, me personally i don't care one way or another as long as you don't force me to switch religions etc. I respect all people but i don't like being forced to do something i don't want to do. now with this being said grown men fleeing from a country to another is a shame since they can join a pro-government militia, the military or law enforcement and help take back their homelands from the evil, but women and children i understand. Now this is my point (not trying to be a jerk)
 

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@Falcon29 Just let's face it,muslims cannot integrate in Liberal societies,the recent events,the increasing ghettoisation of these communities are just proving that. Our values and way of life is far different from what Islam teaches etc. and we all know that muslims aren't ready to change as Islam comes first.
 

Falcon29

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Multiculturism is the biggest problem. There are people for and against it, me personally i don't care one way or another as long as you don't force me to switch religions etc. I respect all people but i don't like being forced to do something i don't want to do. now with this being said grown men fleeing from a country to another is a shame since they can join a pro-government militia, the military or law enforcement and help take back their homelands from the evil, but women and children i understand. Now this is my point (not trying to be a jerk)
Well said, the implementation of multiculturalism was rushed, there is no doubt about that. With the increasingly globalized world, policy makers sought to facilitate multiculturalism, only looking through the scope of economic benefits. They didn't make any effort to study what cultural repercussions this will have. This is why we need a new model, that works with the economic reality, but take into consideration the cultural angle of this.

To your second point, this was what I was trying to describe in my fifth point. I don't understand the strategy or logic behind pretending like the problem doesn't exist. It's like a student who was an assignment due at midnight, he can't pretend that this is a delusion and escape it. Likewise, Muslims have much work to do in their home nations where they represent majority, instead of fleeing, they should stay and contribute to their interests. The leaders also have a role in being mature and enabling some sort of temporary solution. Otherwise this gap is going to be filled by militants.

@Falcon29 Just let's face it,muslims cannot integrate in Liberal societies,the recent events,the increasing ghettoisation of these communities are just proving that. Our values and way of life is far different from what Islam teaches etc. and we all know that muslims aren't ready to change as Islam comes first.
I agree, Islam and Liberalism are very different. Islam is conservative model, it differs from Western conservatism in sense that it is not influenced by monetary rewards or driven by capitalism, it is driven by faith. Which means we really don't know what to expect or what direction its people will take. This is why I favor what was laid out in the OP.

My concern is, can we allow two different world views to exist simultaneously? Will capitalism or globalization interfere in the 'ground up' process in the Middle East, or the formation of a Islamic utopia land that suits the people who want that? If they can both exist, we could have a world where people are satisfied and mutually respect each other, without the need for multiculturalism. If not, then this will drag on and could become something more chaotic.
 

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@Bundeswehr @Falcon29

I just want to add that Europe is and has been during centuries a multicultural place as all Europeans aren't the same,as we don't share the same culture,the same language etc.
-
The French are totally different from the Estonians just like the Germans are totally different from the Greeks.
 

T-123456

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It all depends on the Muslim and his culture.
Turks are in Western Europe from the 60s on,never caused any religious terror acts.
There was no ''Muslim'',nobody cared about someone's religion,they used to call all non European looking foreighners ''Turk'',things have changed after 9-11 in New York,and after the terror acts in Europe.
Before,Islamic terror had no chance in Europe.
Europeans are afraid and who can blame them,this fear causes anti ''Muslim'' sentiments.
A cause of this radicalization can be found in countries like France,UK and Belgium.
al-Caida and all the other terror organisations were there all the time so,why this sentiment and radicalization of young Muslims in Europe?
If you exclude a part of society,you will have radicalism,its just the consequence of..
''Getto forming'' i call it,most imigrants in these countries have no chance in society,are neglected by the various governments.
An example is Marseille,i went there and some neighborhoods are a no go,even for the police,also in the UK and Belgium(Brussels,Antwerpen),
Personally,i live in Europe and Turkiye,im western oriented,i couldnt live in Turkiye all the time,especially not with Erdogan in charge.
 
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Scorpion

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@Falcon29 good analysis can you clarify what you mean by western values and what do you mean by integration? As far as I know muslims who live in the west are pretty much integrated into the society. They're taught in same schools, eat same food, wear same cloths, serve in the army, enjoy their time just like non muslims. What value are you talking about? Wearing a bikini or eating non halal food. I really failed to get that. I myself spent some time in the U.S and contributed to its society here I am in Saudi Arabia working side by side with non muslims non Saudi folks from the U.S, Europe and beyond and I travel continuously to ever corner of the world. Its not the muslims but the Islamophobiacs who are busy pushing the clash of civilization for their own benefit. Islamophobia started post 9/11 in the U.S and then spread to Europe. It was not the muslims that trigger then gun in the first place. It was the U.S who went to Afghanistan and Iraq. Of course you will expect some sort of resistance to the U.S imperialistic policy. Remember during the abbasid rule, Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists all lived side by side in harmony and peace. Islam is like any other mainstream religion and is not in a conflict with anyone.
 

Falcon29

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@Falcon29 good analysis can you clarify what you mean by western values and what do you mean by integration? As far as I know muslims who live in the west are pretty much integrated into the society. They're taught in same schools, eat same food, wear same cloths, serve in the army, enjoy their time just like non muslims. What value are you talking about? Wearing a bikini or eating non halal food. I really failed to get that. I myself spent some time in the U.S and contributed to its society here I am in Saudi Arabia working side by side with non muslims non Saudi folks from the U.S, Europe and beyond and I travel continuously to ever corner of the world. Its not the muslims but the Islamophobiacs who are busy pushing the clash of civilization for their own benefit. Islamophobia started post 9/11 in the U.S and then spread to Europe. It was not the muslims that trigger then gun in the first place. It was the U.S who went to Afghanistan and Iraq. Of course you will expect some sort of resistance to the U.S imperialistic policy. Remember during the abbasid rule, Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists all lived side by side in harmony and peace. Islam is like any other mainstream religion and is not in a conflict with anyone.
I don't mean Western values but more so the 'popular lifestyle'. I don't know what the West was like a hundred or two hundred years ago. It was conservative and traditional likely. Most of the older people aren't familiar with the modern lifestyle. The younger generation is most exposed to it, and if you don't follow it, you will have some trouble integrating. You can still find other Muslims like you though, but the point of integration is not for all ethnic groups to isolate each other from themselves. It's not only with Muslims, in some cases other ethnic backgrounds find themselves in their own cliques as well. The lifestyle I'm referring to is heavily influenced by celebrity culture, it's all about getting intoxicated and pulling any girl you can. Which can intimidate some people who are not used to that or taught that pre-martial relations are not lawful in religion.

Of course some won't let religion get into the way, and many in the US are well integrated. For them, that's their place then so be it. For a lot of other Muslims, such as in Europe, they prefer a different lifestyle(nothing wrong with that). That's why I argue, we should humans to form an alternative model in the Middle East where people share different worldview. And in my response to Gabriel, I address that the West should accept a society like that on the other side of the world. So those who feel they prefer to live there, should. If we as a society as a whole can't provide this, there will be more problems. Middle East will remain as it is and once in a while terror attack will succeed. There is no such thing as clash of civilizations though, that's mythology stuff.
 

djdefense

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@Falcon29 good analysis can you clarify what you mean by western values and what do you mean by integration? As far as I know muslims who live in the west are pretty much integrated into the society. They're taught in same schools, eat same food, wear same cloths, serve in the army, enjoy their time just like non muslims. What value are you talking about? Wearing a bikini or eating non halal food. I really failed to get that. I myself spent some time in the U.S and contributed to its society here I am in Saudi Arabia working side by side with non muslims non Saudi folks from the U.S, Europe and beyond and I travel continuously to ever corner of the world. Its not the muslims but the Islamophobiacs who are busy pushing the clash of civilization for their own benefit. Islamophobia started post 9/11 in the U.S and then spread to Europe. It was not the muslims that trigger then gun in the first place. It was the U.S who went to Afghanistan and Iraq. Of course you will expect some sort of resistance to the U.S imperialistic policy. Remember during the abbasid rule, Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists all lived side by side in harmony and peace. Islam is like any other mainstream religion and is not in a conflict with anyone.
There are two parts to it and this is something that I was discussing with someone just yesterday.
1. How easy is to fit in?
2. How much does one want to fit in?

1. How easy is to fit in? Stark Differences b/w US and Europe

The US really is the ultimate melting pot. If you became part of a student body or the workforce and started living in some neighborhood, people won't bother you and you won't face many problems fitting in. And frankly, anyone who's serious about getting a green card or something will do everything to fit in and will avoid trouble at all costs. You won't find many neighborhoods that are 100% Muslim because Americans don't sideline someone just because of their religion. So, their isn't a need for Muslims to congregate in the same parts of the city. Its easy for an immigrant to fit in. I mean let us be honest, if the US hadn't opened its doors, none of my countrymen or my Paki brothers would have ever tasted success. There would never have been any immigrant CEOs. But the US doesn't work like that. You can get to the top.

On the other hand, if you look at Europe, even places like Denmark which were basically open to letting everyone in a few years ago, Muslims are not exactly welcome now. Belgium has its own problem. One has to ask, why are there Muslim neighborhoods in Belgium and not in the US, and that is what someone did ask:

Why there are Muslim ghettos in Belgium, but not in the US - The Boston Globe

My point is that Europe has had a problem with letting people in and then discriminating against them to the point that the immigrants actually believe its important to stick together for the sake of survival.

It was funny to me that Indians and Pakistanis who're always talking about nuking each other, hang out so wonderfully in Britain, as if they hadn't spent the last many decades fighting wars. That's almost like finding neighborhoods where Israelis and Palestinians live together. The reason why they had to stick together was because they faced a kind of segregation in Britain that Hitler would have loved. And it wasn't just Muslims, but anyone from that region found a hard time fitting in unless they went to this neighborhood.

Europe has a problem. It doesn't let people fit it even if they want to. So, when some second generation muslim youth asks the "wrong" people why he doesn't have the right job, the right lifestyle, the right stuff, the answers he gets related to Europe suddenly all make sense - even though they are lies.

2. How much does one want to fit in?

You know if I want to make something of myself in a foreign country, I will have to fit in. But, there have been many cases in Europe where people have come into the office wearing traditional clothes and 1 time out of 100 someone reports them to HR and then it blows up to be a big story. But, to me its like, if I am working for someone, I better dress for work. Do in Rome as romans do. Of course, France went way out of context when they banned all headwear and stuff from schools and workplaces. Now that is used by terrorists to misguide the youth, "Hey, look. They don't want you here."
French ban on Muslim headscarves is upheld by human rights court | Daily Mail Online

Multiculturism hasn't failed in the US. In fact, it would have worked in Western Europe too had Europeans actually tried. And it hasn't failed in all Western European countries too - Germany has tried to get things to work, although now the situation is not that great. It's not merely about Islam in Europe, it's more about race and language. Europe created the "Us vs Them" at the level of the government, which is a terrible thing.

So, there is something that is wrong on both sides. And it needs to be fixed fast.
 
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UAE

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There are two parts to it and this is something that I was discussing with someone just yesterday.
1. How easy is to fit in?
2. How much does one want to fit in?

1. How easy is to fit in? Stark Differences b/w US and Europe

The US really is the ultimate melting pot. If you became part of a student body or the workforce and started living in some neighborhood, people won't bother you and you won't face many problems fitting in. And frankly, anyone who's serious about getting a green card or something will do everything to fit in and will avoid trouble at all costs. You won't find many neighborhoods that are 100% Muslim because Americans don't sideline someone just because of their religion. So, their isn't a need for Muslims to congregate in the same parts of the city. Its easy for an immigrant to fit in. I mean let us be honest, if the US hadn't opened its doors, none of my countrymen or my Paki brothers would have ever tasted success. There would never have been any immigrant CEOs. But the US doesn't work like that. You can get to the top.

On the other hand, if you look at Europe, even places like Denmark which were basically open to letting everyone in a few years ago, Muslims are not exactly welcome now. Belgium has its own problem. One has to ask, why are there Muslim neighborhoods in Belgium and not in the US, and that is what someone did ask:

Why there are Muslim ghettos in Belgium, but not in the US - The Boston Globe

My point is that Europe has had a problem with letting people in and then discriminating against them to the point that the immigrants actually believe its important to stick together for the sake of survival.

It was funny to me that Indians and Pakistanis who're always talking about nuking each other, hang out so wonderfully in Britain, as if they hadn't spent the last many decades fighting wars. That's almost like finding neighborhoods where Israelis and Palestinians live together. The reason why they had to stick together was because they faced a kind of segregation in Britain that Hitler would have loved. And it wasn't just Muslims, but anyone from that region found a hard time fitting in unless they went to this neighborhood.

Europe has a problem. It doesn't let people fit it even if they want to. So, when some second generation muslim youth asks the "wrong" people why he doesn't have the right job, the right lifestyle, the right stuff, the answers he gets related to Europe suddenly all make sense - even though they are lies.

2. How much does one want to fit in?

You know if I want to make something of myself in a foreign country, I will have to fit in. But, there have been many cases in Europe where people have come into the office wearing traditional clothes and 1 time out of 100 someone reports them to HR and then it blows up to be a big story. But, to me its like, if I am working for someone, I better dress for work. Do in Rome as romans do. Of course, France went way out of context when they banned all headwear and stuff from schools and workplaces. Now that is used by terrorists to misguide the youth, "Hey, look. They don't want you here."
French ban on Muslim headscarves is upheld by human rights court | Daily Mail Online

Multiculturism hasn't failed in the US. In fact, it would have worked in Western Europe too had Europeans actually tried. And it hasn't failed in all Western European countries too - Germany has tried to get things to work, although now the situation is not that great. It's not merely about Islam in Europe, it's more about race and language. Europe created the "Us vs Them" at the level of the government, which is a terrible thing.

So, there is something that is wrong on both sides. And it needs to be fixed fast.
Well said mate. Thumps up to that.
 

Falcon29

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There are two parts to it and this is something that I was discussing with someone just yesterday.
1. How easy is to fit in?
2. How much does one want to fit in?

1. How easy is to fit in? Stark Differences b/w US and Europe

The US really is the ultimate melting pot. If you became part of a student body or the workforce and started living in some neighborhood, people won't bother you and you won't face many problems fitting in. And frankly, anyone who's serious about getting a green card or something will do everything to fit in and will avoid trouble at all costs. You won't find many neighborhoods that are 100% Muslim because Americans don't sideline someone just because of their religion. So, their isn't a need for Muslims to congregate in the same parts of the city. Its easy for an immigrant to fit in. I mean let us be honest, if the US hadn't opened its doors, none of my countrymen or my Paki brothers would have ever tasted success. There would never have been any immigrant CEOs. But the US doesn't work like that. You can get to the top.

On the other hand, if you look at Europe, even places like Denmark which were basically open to letting everyone in a few years ago, Muslims are not exactly welcome now. Belgium has its own problem. One has to ask, why are there Muslim neighborhoods in Belgium and not in the US, and that is what someone did ask:

Why there are Muslim ghettos in Belgium, but not in the US - The Boston Globe

My point is that Europe has had a problem with letting people in and then discriminating against them to the point that the immigrants actually believe its important to stick together for the sake of survival.

It was funny to me that Indians and Pakistanis who're always talking about nuking each other, hang out so wonderfully in Britain, as if they hadn't spent the last many decades fighting wars. That's almost like finding neighborhoods where Israelis and Palestinians live together. The reason why they had to stick together was because they faced a kind of segregation in Britain that Hitler would have loved. And it wasn't just Muslims, but anyone from that region found a hard time fitting in unless they went to this neighborhood.

Europe has a problem. It doesn't let people fit it even if they want to. So, when some second generation muslim youth asks the "wrong" people why he doesn't have the right job, the right lifestyle, the right stuff, the answers he gets related to Europe suddenly all make sense - even though they are lies.

2. How much does one want to fit in?

You know if I want to make something of myself in a foreign country, I will have to fit in. But, there have been many cases in Europe where people have come into the office wearing traditional clothes and 1 time out of 100 someone reports them to HR and then it blows up to be a big story. But, to me its like, if I am working for someone, I better dress for work. Do in Rome as romans do. Of course, France went way out of context when they banned all headwear and stuff from schools and workplaces. Now that is used by terrorists to misguide the youth, "Hey, look. They don't want you here."
French ban on Muslim headscarves is upheld by human rights court | Daily Mail Online

Multiculturism hasn't failed in the US. In fact, it would have worked in Western Europe too had Europeans actually tried. And it hasn't failed in all Western European countries too - Germany has tried to get things to work, although now the situation is not that great. It's not merely about Islam in Europe, it's more about race and language. Europe created the "Us vs Them" at the level of the government, which is a terrible thing.

So, there is something that is wrong on both sides. And it needs to be fixed fast.
Good analysis, deserved positive rating for that. We are having a matured and needed discussion here which I hoped to ignite. And like you said, whatever the problems are, it does need to he fixed quickly otherwise we are heading towards a heavily polarized world.

Curious though, has this been your personal experience in Europe?
 

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"Multiculturalism" only works in new countries like Canada or USA where there's no historical unified culture that is challenged by alien cultures.
 

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the thing with US and European Multiculturism is this
Europe- all European countries have their own culture, history and is now being forced by USA to adopt to something we don't have experience with
US- has their own history, but the culture is influenced by many other countries like German, Irish, British, French cultures so they had longer time to adopt to Multiculturism
 

Falcon29

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the thing with US and European Multiculturism is this
Europe- all European countries have their own culture, history and is now being forced by USA to adopt to something we don't have experience with
US- has their own history, but the culture is influenced by many other countries like German, Irish, British, French cultures so they had longer time to adopt to Multiculturism
This makes sense, US doesn't really have a cultural identity. We are united by cheeseburgers and excessive partying. :D
 

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@Bundeswehr @Falcon29 One country really tried to integrate Middle easterners,Africans and Muslims in Europe.
This country is Sweden. Did it work ? Even with huge efforts from the government (Sweden comes first when it comes to integration efforts!)
Multiculturalism failed miserably in Sweden.
 

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