Why India has never seen a military dictatorship

[Joe Shearer]

Agree with J. We were very close to an inflection point there, those years. Mumbai was the last throw of the dice for the Muslims. They were already beaten by then. Gujarat just reiterated the point for the future.

Cheers, Doc

I don't think I'd want to live in a Muslim majority state - creepy thought. But in India, I'd like Muslims to be equal partners. No victimising, no posing as victims. No sniping about their citizenship, no second thoughts about being part of a universal 'Ummah', rather than firmly defined once and for all citizens of a nation-state. No personal law for each religion. Just one statute governing all citizens.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't think I'd want to live in a Muslim majority state - creepy thought. But in India, I'd like Muslims to be equal partners. No victimising, no posing as victims. No sniping about their citizenship, no second thoughts about being part of a universal 'Ummah', rather than firmly defined once and for all citizens of a nation-state. No personal law for each religion. Just one statute governing all citizens.

Off for an hour or two.

 

[vsdoc]

I don't think I'd want to live in a Muslim majority state - creepy thought. But in India, I'd like Muslims to be equal partners. No victimising, no posing as victims. No sniping about their citizenship, no second thoughts about being part of a universal 'Ummah', rather than firmly defined once and for all citizens of a nation-state. No personal law for each religion. Just one statute governing all citizens.

Amen and ditto sir.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Hithchiker]

...was LED astray.

There's nothing inherently defective in Pakistan or Pakistani people. I won't go further for fear of attracting ridicule as a turncoat, but it was bad leadership, THE EXACT PROBLEM THAT IS AFFLICTING THE NDA, ALSO A NEW PLATFORM WITH NO LEGACY.

Agreed correct me if i am wrong, Nehru being ruled after partition established the foundation that we couldn't since the there was no counterpart in form of Jinnah or Liaquat Ali..

 

[Joe Shearer]

Agreed correct me if i am wrong, Nehru being ruled after partition established the foundation that we couldn't since the there was no counterpart in form of Jinnah or Liaquat Ali..

One of the strongest planks for India's initial advantages. It was Jinnah's unfortunate death too, too soon after the formation of Pakistan that caused all the mischief; with respect, Liaquat Ali Khan's contribution was nebulous, it was in fact a negative contribution, in that by being assassinated, he paved the way for chaos! It sounds mean, but I do mean that he was not very influential on Pakistan's history.

 

[Joe Shearer]

One thing I'd like to say, at the cost of sounding like a stuck record, is what a bad deal Pakistan got stuck with. They deserved better.

1. If Jinnah had written a Political Testament;
2. If Liaquat Ali Khan had not let him down so badly, after his death;
3. If other Prime Ministers had managed to hang on to power longer; Suhrawardy, for instance, my personal favourite, might have made a major difference;
4. If Ghulam Mohammed and Iskandar Mirza had not stabbed the infant state in the back;
5. If Ayub had been more generous of mind and spirit, and had protected and nurtured democracy instead of walking into a vacuum and satisfying his personal and hitherto thwarted ambitions;
6. If Jinnah's legacy had been upheld, and if his sister had managed to get elected, in spite of the spirited skullduggery by the militarists;
7. If the earth had opened up, and swallowed all of Kashmir, leaving a huge sink-hole there instead (OK, that was a joke, the only one so far);
8. If Afghanistan had not tried to muscle its way into the NWFP, and had accepted the Durand Line in spirit as well as in fact, OR, if Pakistan had given away the frontier province to Afghanistan;
9. If Pakistan had not taken the easy way out and jumped into bed with the US and joined CENTO and SEATO;
10. If Pakistan, or rather, the West Pakistan leaders, had been more relaxed in their approach to the SDREs, the Bingos;
11. If Pakistan had moved aggressively to tie up India with knots by increasing inter-country trade;
12. If Pakistan had sought greater defensive configurations of her armed forces rather than the aggressive choices she made;
13. If Pakistan had learnt the lessons from the stupid mistakes that India had been making, and invested heavily in education and science and technology;
14. If Pakistan had a relaxed approach to the nazariya-e-Pakistan, and had claimed her ancient history right from the outset, rather than waiting for the defeat of the Two Nation Theory to claim her right to the IVC, and to the Indus Valley (I forget the brilliant term Kaptaan used);
15. If Pakistan had not blundered into using the movements, if I might call it that, and allowing Zia to use those to achieve her ambitions in Kashmir;
16. If Yahya had not got suckered by Bhutto and had not tried to tap-dance his way out of trouble in East Pakistan;
17. If the US had been a true friend and helped Pakistan find a solution;
18. If the Chinese had been true friends and helped Pakistan find a solution;
19. IF INDIA HAD BEEN ACCEPTED AS TRUE FRIENDS AND HER PLEAS HAD BEEN LOOKED AT WITH OPEN ATTITUDES, WITHOUT BHUTTO, AND IF THAT HELPED PAKISTAN FIND A SOLUTION;
20. If Musharraf and Vajpayee had got their way and worked out Kashmir;

If...., if...., if....

I have several pages of these for India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I really mean that I think that these were unfortunate obstacles to Pakistan's peaceful progress, and not in any sense of trying to score points, or suggest an emasculated Pakistan, or suggested a re-colonised Pakistan. I really feel that a strong and friendly Pakistan standing shoulder to shoulder with India, and a generous India working for the prosperity of Pakistan, would have represented power and credibility of a level unmatched even by the super-powers.

 

[Hithchiker]

One of the strongest planks for India's initial advantages. It was Jinnah's unfortunate death too, too soon after the formation of Pakistan that caused all the mischief; with respect, Liaquat Ali Khan's contribution was nebulous, it was in fact a negative contribution, in that by being assassinated, he paved the way for chaos! It sounds mean, but I do mean that he was not very influential on Pakistan's history.

Concurred with what you said except i don't get this one "By being assassinated"..Though i agree he should have asserted more himself and should've lay down the political and civilian ethos...

 

[Hithchiker]

One thing I'd like to say, at the cost of sounding like a stuck record, is what a bad deal Pakistan got stuck with. They deserved better.

1. If Jinnah had written a Political Testament;
2. If Liaquat Ali Khan had not let him down so badly, after his death;
3. If other Prime Ministers had managed to hang on to power longer; Suhrawardy, for instance, my personal favourite, might have made a major difference;
4. If Ghulam Mohammed and Iskandar Mirza had not stabbed the infant state in the back;
5. If Ayub had been more generous of mind and spirit, and had protected and nurtured democracy instead of walking into a vacuum and satisfying his personal and hitherto thwarted ambitions;
6. If Jinnah's legacy had been upheld, and if his sister had managed to get elected, in spite of the spirited skullduggery by the militarists;
7. If the earth had opened up, and swallowed all of Kashmir, leaving a huge sink-hole there instead (OK, that was a joke, the only one so far);
8. If Afghanistan had not tried to muscle its way into the NWFP, and had accepted the Durand Line in spirit as well as in fact, OR, if Pakistan had given away the frontier province to Afghanistan;
9. If Pakistan had not taken the easy way out and jumped into bed with the US and joined CENTO and SEATO;
10. If Pakistan, or rather, the West Pakistan leaders, had been more relaxed in their approach to the SDREs, the Bingos;
11. If Pakistan had moved aggressively to tie up India with knots by increasing inter-country trade;
12. If Pakistan had sought greater defensive configurations of her armed forces rather than the aggressive choices she made;
13. If Pakistan had learnt the lessons from the stupid mistakes that India had been making, and invested heavily in education and science and technology;
14. If Pakistan had a relaxed approach to the nazariya-e-Pakistan, and had claimed her ancient history right from the outset, rather than waiting for the defeat of the Two Nation Theory to claim her right to the IVC, and to the Indus Valley (I forget the brilliant term Kaptaan used);
15. If Pakistan had not blundered into using the movements, if I might call it that, and allowing Zia to use those to achieve her ambitions in Kashmir;
16. If Yahya had not got suckered by Bhutto and had not tried to tap-dance his way out of trouble in East Pakistan;
17. If the US had been a true friend and helped Pakistan find a solution;
18. If the Chinese had been true friends and helped Pakistan find a solution;
19. IF INDIA HAD BEEN ACCEPTED AS TRUE FRIENDS AND HER PLEAS HAD BEEN LOOKED AT WITH OPEN ATTITUDES, WITHOUT BHUTTO, AND IF THAT HELPED PAKISTAN FIND A SOLUTION;
20. If Musharraf and Vajpayee had got their way and worked out Kashmir;

If...., if...., if....

I have several pages of these for India.

Point number 19 i believe needs to be reciprocated from both sides..

 

[Joe Shearer]

Concurred with what you said except i don't get this one "By being assassinated"..Though i agree he should have asserted more himself and should've lay down the political and civilian ethos...

Meaning, he wasn't there, or he could have asserted himself more, or at least had been there to fend off the chaos that ensued as a result.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Point number 19 i believe needs to be reciprocated from both sides..

Quite right.

However, my impression is that Pakistan never ever tried; never ever thought that there was such a possibility as reaching out to India and being accepted. Correct me if I'm wrong; leaving out Musharraf and Agra, that is, and even that was based on very weak foundations, if his present brassy support of Hafiz Saeed is anything to go by.

 

[Hithchiker]

Meaning, he wasn't there, or he could have asserted himself more, or at least had been there to fend off the chaos that ensued as a result.

Ok , my bad i got it this earlier i thought "by being assassinated" you imply that he either ignored or get himself killed ..

 

[Joe Shearer]

Point number 19 i believe needs to be reciprocated from both sides..

I have replied in a general sense, but you must have realised that the point was made in a narrow sense, in the sense that Indira Gandhi's appeals for calm and restraint were brushed aside by Yahya in 1971.

What I can bear testimony to is that

1. The Indian leadership was caught by surprise and shocked by Operation Searchlight and its consequences;
2. The Indian public, specifically, the West Bengal public, was in turmoil, and felt that Delhi was indifferent to Bengalis being killed;
3. The Government of India reacted with great sensitivity and alarm at that frenzy in Bengal, because the state was just then being pulled back from a bloody Naxal rebellion;
4. The GoI tried very hard not to complicate a very complicated situation in West Bengal by getting the Pakistani leadership to bottle up the trouble, by giving in to Mujib, not to bring him to the forefront or to win brownie points, but to get a quick end to a problem that was looking really bad. Don't forget that Maulana Bhashani, the leftist-cum-Islamist Bengali leader, was much feared by India, and some people had nightmares thinking that Tiger Siddiqi rather than Mujib would come to represent Bangladesh. In which case, it might have become full-scale counter-insurgency in West Bengal.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ok , my bad i got it this earlier i thought "by being assassinated" you imply that he either ignored or get himself killed ..

I know, that was a slightly brutal, insensitive way of putting it. Nobody gets himself killed deliberately. Apologies.

 

[Hithchiker]

Quite right.

However, my impression is that Pakistan never ever tried; never ever thought that there was such a possibility as reaching out to India and being accepted. Correct me if I'm wrong; leaving out Musharraf and Agra, that is, and even that was based on very weak foundations, if his present brassy support of Hafiz Saeed is anything to go by.

Mushraff needs to brag a lot and loves to remain in news..In fact you will agreed with me that it was in his term that " Cross border movement" was being put to stop along with ceasefire agreement..Also India is much bigger in every aspect and should act like same ..As much as Pakistan will gain , India will gain much more if the hostilities are reduced..