Acquisition of J-15 for PAF- Air Superiority & Deep Strike Platfrom

[DHsquare]

No speculation, go ahead open one.

Much sooner than you think

O mere Allah.......

 

[Cookie Monster]

I think the J-15 will cause the enemy to rethink its tactical planning.
Reduced RCS + powerful AESA radar + PL-15 will be successful in subduing the enemy enough to quit early.

I've been thinking similarly but in terms of ground targets(most importantly with Anti Air Defense Systems in mind).

Recently came across some article about India wanting S400 ASAP(due to mounting Chinese pressure)...there are concerns that it might be delayed due to COVID pandemic. This reminded me of the earlier news about Israel using Rampage ALBM to avoid Syrian air defenses while still being able to hit ground targets from stand off range. Another ALBM was recently introduced by Russia...called Kinzhal.

Kinzhal is way too big...and is to be either deployed by bombers...or Mig31...which is quite a large jet and was shown carrying one on its belly. Kinzhal is 8 meters long(1 m in diameter) and its range is supposed to be 2000 Km. Rampage is much smaller by comparison about 4.7m and like 1/3rd the diameter...I couldn't find the range. Reportedly Rampage's trajectory can follow a more depressed trajectory as opposed to a purely ballistic one. Somewhere between Rampage and Kinzhal(and their respective sizes) lies an ALBM that can have a range of ~500 Km. It's more likely to be closer in dimensions to Rampage. Rampage is essentially a modified rocket artillery...something similar(rocket powered) in ALBM role would essentially fill the gap between stand off glide bombs and stand off cruise missiles...in terms of cost it would be significantly cheaper(closer to stand off glide bombs).

With the growing Indian AAD capabilities...a cheap ALBM(like Rampage) with ~500 Km of range could prove to be a potent asymmetric(in terms of cost compared to AAD assets) threat. Supposedly(as per a promotional video of rampage on IAI website) an F16 can carry 4(on the two inner wing hard points)...so a J15 should be able to carry 4 of Rampage like or slightly bigger ALBMs.

A jet can fly at a high altitude...then speed up, nose up and launch to impart as much momentum as possible on to the missile...
...the rocket ignites carrying it further and then it falls down on to its target at supersonic speeds...all of this from within Pak's own air space.
If one jet can carry 4...then in a formation of 4 jets...two can be in A2G config carrying these while the other two can be in either A2A or SEAD config...and basically pound Indian targets(8 ALBMs) from the safety of their own air space.

 

[AliYusuf]

I've been thinking similarly but in terms of ground targets(most importantly with Anti Air Defense Systems in mind).

Recently came across some article about India wanting S400 ASAP(due to mounting Chinese pressure)...there are concerns that it might be delayed due to COVID pandemic. This reminded me of the earlier news about Israel using Rampage ALBM to avoid Syrian air defenses while still being able to hit ground targets from stand off range. Another ALBM was recently introduced by Russia...called Kinzhal.

Kinzhal is way too big...and is to be either deployed by bombers...or Mig31...which is quite a large jet and was shown carrying one on its belly. Kinzhal is 8 meters long(1 m in diameter) and its range is supposed to be 2000 Km. Rampage is much smaller by comparison about 4.7m and like 1/3rd the diameter...I couldn't find the range. Reportedly Rampage's trajectory can follow a more depressed trajectory as opposed to a purely ballistic one. Somewhere between Rampage and Kinzhal(and their respective sizes) lies an ALBM that can have a range of ~500 Km. It's more likely to be closer in dimensions to Rampage. Rampage is essentially a modified rocket artillery...something similar(rocket powered) in ALBM role would essentially fill the gap between stand off glide bombs and stand off cruise missiles...in terms of cost it would be significantly cheaper(closer to stand off glide bombs).

With the growing Indian AAD capabilities...a cheap ALBM(like Rampage) with ~500 Km of range could prove to be a potent asymmetric(in terms of cost compared to AAD assets) threat. Supposedly(as per a promotional video of rampage on IAI website) an F16 can carry 4(on the two inner wing hard points)...so a J15 should be able to carry 4 of Rampage like or slightly bigger ALBMs.

A jet can fly at a high altitude...then speed up, nose up and launch to impart as much momentum as possible on to the missile...
...the rocket ignites carrying it further and then it falls down on to its target at supersonic speeds...all of this from within Pak's own air space.
If one jet can carry 4...then in a formation of 4 jets...two can be in A2G config carrying these while the other two can be in either A2A or SEAD config...and basically pound Indian targets(8 ALBMs) from the safety of their own air space.

Our Raad-II could fit nicely on to the J-15 or the JH-7AII ... several of them infact.
It has a 600km range.

 

[Tiwana]

They are very much flying, and more than usual. One simple reason being, every a/c handles diferently, and it takes pilots time to understand this. The other being fine tuning tactics.

1) Customized for PAF
2) All 3
3) Chinese engines
4) Yes

Khafee Sir ! This is my first comment. But I am regular reader of other defence forum, and i am here on this forum since you break the news regarding PAF acquisitions. Since then i am desperate to get a glimpse of what has been landed. I am from district next to sargodha, and since couple of weeks i am hearing jet sounds in the night more than usual. Usually PAF trainers especially K8s used to fly right over my village - but in day light. That sound in night force me to think that might be the sound of new jets present on OUR most important air base (testing the new machines).

 

[DHsquare]

But ra'ad being an ALCM so speed is the main issue while previous discussion was in the context of ALBM primarily...

Our Raad-II could fit nicely on to the J-15 or the JH-7AII ... several of them infact.
It has a 600km range.

 

[AliYusuf]

But ra'ad being an ALCM so speed is the main issue while previous discussion was in the context of ALBM primarily...

It is a cruise missile ... hence a has some AI due to onboard computer ... doesn't need to be that fast.

 

[Gripen9]

I've been thinking similarly but in terms of ground targets(most importantly with Anti Air Defense Systems in mind).

Recently came across some article about India wanting S400 ASAP(due to mounting Chinese pressure)...there are concerns that it might be delayed due to COVID pandemic. This reminded me of the earlier news about Israel using Rampage ALBM to avoid Syrian air defenses while still being able to hit ground targets from stand off range. Another ALBM was recently introduced by Russia...called Kinzhal.

Kinzhal is way too big...and is to be either deployed by bombers...or Mig31...which is quite a large jet and was shown carrying one on its belly. Kinzhal is 8 meters long(1 m in diameter) and its range is supposed to be 2000 Km. Rampage is much smaller by comparison about 4.7m and like 1/3rd the diameter...I couldn't find the range. Reportedly Rampage's trajectory can follow a more depressed trajectory as opposed to a purely ballistic one. Somewhere between Rampage and Kinzhal(and their respective sizes) lies an ALBM that can have a range of ~500 Km. It's more likely to be closer in dimensions to Rampage. Rampage is essentially a modified rocket artillery...something similar(rocket powered) in ALBM role would essentially fill the gap between stand off glide bombs and stand off cruise missiles...in terms of cost it would be significantly cheaper(closer to stand off glide bombs).

With the growing Indian AAD capabilities...a cheap ALBM(like Rampage) with ~500 Km of range could prove to be a potent asymmetric(in terms of cost compared to AAD assets) threat. Supposedly(as per a promotional video of rampage on IAI website) an F16 can carry 4(on the two inner wing hard points)...so a J15 should be able to carry 4 of Rampage like or slightly bigger ALBMs.

A jet can fly at a high altitude...then speed up, nose up and launch to impart as much momentum as possible on to the missile...
...the rocket ignites carrying it further and then it falls down on to its target at supersonic speeds...all of this from within Pak's own air space.
If one jet can carry 4...then in a formation of 4 jets...two can be in A2G config carrying these while the other two can be in either A2A or SEAD config...and basically pound Indian targets(8 ALBMs) from the safety of their own air space.

CM-400 AKG that we already have and integrated with JF-17 is a ALBM with a terminal velocity of mach 4+. It is termed as anti ship BM, but shouldn't be difficult to update and use against land targets.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Our Raad-II could fit nicely on to the J-15 or the JH-7AII ... several of them infact.
It has a 600km range.

Raad II would be more costly than something like Rampage. It would be more well suited to use against high value and/or mobile targets.

Essentially this "rampage" would be like the stand off glide bombs...except with longer range. Glide bombs use the momentum imparted by the jet(the speed of the jet and the altitude at which the bomb is released)...and then deploy their wings on their way down to guide themselves to the target. Rampage like ALBM use the momentum imparted by the jet and then their rocket...which means more energy...and therefore a further reach.

So yes RAAD II would be able to do all that Rampage can do...it's just a matter of cost. No point in using higher cost munitions for targets that can be destroyed with lower cost munitions.

 

[Cookie Monster]

But ra'ad being an ALCM so speed is the main issue while previous discussion was in the context of ALBM primarily...

My main argument is about longer range stand off munitions of low cost. Think REK kit like glide bombs(in terms of cost) but longer range. The speed isn't much of a concern...but supersonic speed can help do more damage if the warhead is small. See the post above this one.

 

[DHsquare]

My main argument is about longer range stand off munitions of low cost. Think REK kit like glide bombs(in terms of cost) but longer range. The speed isn't much of a concern...but supersonic speed can help do more damage if the warhead is small. See the post above this one.

Exactly y Im in favor of speedier ammunition than heavy load since it will do more damage in lesser payload

 

[Gripen9]

My main argument is about longer range stand off munitions of low cost. Think REK kit like glide bombs(in terms of cost) but longer range. The speed isn't much of a concern...but supersonic speed can help do more damage if the warhead is small. See the post above this one.

Actually makes sense. Have cheap high velocity small diameter standoff munition launched against high value targets such as S400 battery. Launch in quantity to overwhelm the radars and launchers.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Actually makes sense. Have cheap high velocity small diameter standoff munition launched against high value targets such as S400 battery. Launch in quantity to overwhelm the radars and launchers.

That S400(that India will eventually get) was the original reason I was going down this line of thought...
...but then when I was researching Rampage...I found that one of the main reasons it was cheap is bcuz it is kind of a dumb bomb...as in it can't go after moving targets. Sensors could be added...so for example a target could be lased by a laser designator on a drone, or personnel on the ground. Or some other sensors that home in on radiation source(turning it into ARM)...
...but all of this adds to the cost and then basically makes it redundant(since there already exist ARM missiles, RAAD, etc). If alternatively the S400 is not on the move...and is deployed in a certain location...then yes they can be destroyed.

So it's best use is...as a low cost but longer range alternative to glide bombs. According to Kursed...Pak is testing rocket boosted REK kits to increase the range to 150 Km. A rampage like ALBM with 500 Km range could give us more reach inside Indian territory to destroy targets without having to risk our fighter jets. If for some reason their AAD systems do engage it...that's their loss...since rampage like missile will be far cheaper than a SAM...if they don't engage it...then the target gets destroyed so still a loss.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

That S400(that India will eventually get) was the original reason I was going down this line of thought...
...but then when I was researching Rampage...I found that one of the main reasons it was cheap is bcuz it is kind of a dumb bomb...as in it can't go after moving targets. Sensors could be added...so for example a target could be lased by a laser designator on a drone, or personnel on the ground. Or some other sensors that home in on radiation source(turning it into ARM)...
...but all of this adds to the cost and then basically makes it redundant(since there already exist ARM missiles, RAAD, etc). If alternatively the S400 is not on the move...and is deployed in a certain location...then yes they can be destroyed.

So it's best use is...as a low cost but longer range alternative to glide bombs. According to Kursed...Pak is testing rocket boosted REK kits to increase the range to 150 Km. A rampage like ALBM with 500 Km range could give us more reach inside Indian territory to destroy targets without having to risk our fighter jets. If for some reason their AAD systems do engage it...that's their loss...since rampage like missile will be far cheaper than a SAM...if they don't engage it...then the target gets destroyed so still a loss.

Keeping the current conflict in mind and the fates of the S300s. Wouldnt a drone doctrine be better suited to counter the S400 threats? The Chinese recently introduced what seems to be smart drone artillery. Where one system launches countless drones at the target.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Keeping the current conflict in mind and the fates of the S300s. Wouldnt a drone doctrine be better suited to counter the S400 threats? The Chinese recently introduced what seems to be smart drone artillery. Where one system launches countless drones at the target.

Drones as they are currently(typical UCAVs in use around the world) will be shot down left and right in countries like India and Pakistan that have extensive radar coverage, decently strong air force, SAM systems, etc. So far they have only been effective in environments where countries are lacking these things.

Cheap drones in large quantities with AI powered swarm behavior...that's a whole different ball game...and currently under development. Those will be very effective against air defense systems...but they are still in development phase.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Drones as they are currently(typical UCAVs in use around the world) will be shot down left and right in countries like India and Pakistan that have extensive radar coverage, decently strong air force, SAM systems, etc. So far they have only been effective in environments where countries are lacking these things.

Cheap drones in large quantities with AI powered swarm behavior...that's a whole different ball game...and currently under development. Those will be very effective against air defense systems...but they are still in development phase.

Armenia had decent air defense minus the strong airforce and you get send F-16s or what not after each drone that pops up. In the end thou would be straining your own resources by doing that.

Pakistan doesnt understand the importance of drones even after getting beaten to pulp with them.