Acquisition of J-15 for PAF- Air Superiority & Deep Strike Platfrom

[Cookie Monster]

Armenia had decent air defense minus the strong airforce and you get send F-16s or what not after each drone that pops up. In the end thou would be straining your own resources by doing that.

Pakistan doesnt understand the importance of drones even after getting beaten to pulp with them.

Below are some of the estimated UNIT PRICES of some of the most popular UCAVs around the world...

Wing Loong II: ~1-2 million USD
CH4: 4 million USD
Predator: ~4 million USD
Reaper: ~16 million USD
Bayraktar TB2: ~5 million USD
Elbit Hermes 450: ~2 million USD
Elbit Hermes 900: ~25 million USD

Not taking into account other associated costs like ground stations, possible sat links(otherwise drones can only be operated with LOS), training, etc...still u can see how expensive these drones are. These drones lack stealth features(those cost even more)...they can be picked up on the radar quite easily and they can be shot down with something as low cost as MANPADS. In heavily contested and monitored areas...like India/Pak...not even a tiny quadcopter can sneak by easily. Pakistan has shot down several in the last few years.

The example u keep bringing up...of Armenia. The fighting is going on in Nagorno Karabagh...which is a very mountainous area. This is one of the reasons why Azerbaijan can't simply just roll through even though it is stronger than Armenia. Any dvances will be slow...and will favor the defending side...with attacking side taking heavier losses...
...that same mountainous terrain makes it harder to have radar coverage everywhere(for both sides).

As for Pakistan getting beaten to pulp with drones...
...while I don't have solid proof...I'm fairly certain that Pak government ALLOWED that to happen...whether due to American pressure or threat or whatever reason. Pakistan has both the capability to detect and shoot down drones...and yet it never did...not even once...and it had hundreds of chances. IMO Pak gov couldn't own up to the fact that it was allowing US to do that...so it wouldn't draw the ire of the militant groups that were being killed with drone strikes...
...nor allow those groups to simply walk free due to US pressure. This basically meant looking the other way.

 

[Caprxl]

IMO Pak gov couldn't own up to the fact that it was allowing US to do that...so it wouldn't draw the ire of the militant groups that were being killed with drone strikes...
...nor allow those groups to simply walk free due to US pressure. This basically meant looking the other way.

You just beautifully summed it.

 

[TsAr]

The capability was on display when Iranian drone was shot down by JF-17 thunder. Secondly US drone strikes were targeting militants and terrorists who were also detrimental to the security of Pakistan. Most of the times Intel was provided by Pakistan for these drone attacks. Pakistan was getting rid of terrorists without spending a penny.

 

[Cookie Monster]

You just beautifully summed it.

If Iran could shoot down state of the art american HALE drone like RQ4 and jam/spoof gps/hack a US stealth drone...
...then Pakistan could do the same...Pakistan has as much capability(IMO more so) as Iran...at the very least.

Ppl forget that prior to WoT...Pakistan wasn't dealing with the scourge of terrorism. When Pakistan reluctantly joined due to US pressure...a lot of the militant groups started to see Pakistan as an enemy(since they saw it as a US ally) and started attacking Pakistan. To make matters worse due to porous border between Pak/Afghanistan...it got way out of control... especially bcuz a huge portion of Pak's military and assets are focused on the east. In these circumstances Pak couldn't openly declare allying with US(as that would cause more trouble at home) and couldn't afford to not side with the US either(immense US pressure was involved). Drone strikes were part of that implicit siding with US. Pak couldn't be involved(as in drone strike the militants themselves)...and often vocally played the "victim" on purpose in front of UN and other such platforms. In politics...these games have to be played and often.
@Pakhtoon yum ^see above

 

[Cookie Monster]

The capability was on display when Iranian drone was shot down by JF-17 thunder. Secondly US drone strikes were targeting militants and terrorists who were also detrimental to the security of Pakistan. Most of the times Intel was provided by Pakistan for these drone attacks. Pakistan was getting rid of terrorists without spending a penny.

Not just that...IMO that's the easy part...detecting a large drone and shooting it down. It is more impressive to detect something as small as a quadcopter and that too quite a few times. I think Indians tried it like 3-4 times over the past couple of years to spy on PA positions across the LoC. All attempts were foiled.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Below are some of the estimated UNIT PRICES of some of the most popular UCAVs around the world...

Wing Loong II: ~1-2 million USD
CH4: 4 million USD
Predator: ~4 million USD
Reaper: ~16 million USD
Bayraktar TB2: ~5 million USD
Elbit Hermes 450: ~2 million USD
Elbit Hermes 900: ~25 million USD

Not taking into account other associated costs like ground stations, possible sat links(otherwise drones can only be operated with LOS), training, etc...still u can see how expensive these drones are. These drones lack stealth features(those cost even more)...they can be picked up on the radar quite easily and they can be shot down with something as low cost as MANPADS. In heavily contested and monitored areas...like India/Pak...not even a tiny quadcopter can sneak by easily. Pakistan has shot down several in the last few years.

The example u keep bringing up...of Armenia. The fighting is going on in Nagorno Karabagh...which is a very mountainous area. This is one of the reasons why Azerbaijan can't simply just roll through even though it is stronger than Armenia. Any dvances will be slow...and will favor the defending side...with attacking side taking heavier losses...
...that same mountainous terrain makes it harder to have radar coverage everywhere(for both sides).

As for Pakistan getting beaten to pulp with drones...
...while I don't have solid proof...I'm fairly certain that Pak government ALLOWED that to happen...whether due to American pressure or threat or whatever reason. Pakistan has both the capability to detect and shoot down drones...and yet it never did...not even once...and it had hundreds of chances. IMO Pak gov couldn't own up to the fact that it was allowing US to do that...so it wouldn't draw the ire of the militant groups that were being killed with drone strikes...
...nor allow those groups to simply walk free due to US pressure. This basically meant looking the other way.

Local production will solve most of those cost issues. At start it will be expensive setting up the industry(which should have been done properly a decade ago) but when mass production hits. It would become cheaper per drone. Bottom line, we need a strong drone industry for all the branches. This would not necessarily take over other equipment but compliment them.

NK is flat lands before the mountains begins and in those flat lands is where thses drones were used. They Azeris havent pushed into the mountains completely yet. So your second point is out.

It's not only NK, what's happening in the Libyan deserts, or the Syrian plains? Same thing to air defense as in NK.

Third point, I just brought up as an example because its shameful and hurtful to talk about that. I hate that time period.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

The capability was on display when Iranian drone was shot down by JF-17 thunder. Secondly US drone strikes were targeting militants and terrorists who were also detrimental to the security of Pakistan. Most of the times Intel was provided by Pakistan for these drone attacks. Pakistan was getting rid of terrorists without spending a penny.

Must be why so many innocent died in those. It's a stain on our territorial integrity and national pride. I dont want to derail this topic any further but talking about that horrible time.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Local production will solve most of those cost issues. At start it will be expensive setting up the industry(which should have been done properly a decade ago) but when mass production hits. It would become cheaper per drone. Bottom line, we need a strong drone industry for all the branches. This would not necessarily take over other equipment but compliment them.

NK is flat lands before the mountains begins and in those flat lands is where thses drones were used. They Azeris havent pushed into the mountains completely yet. So your second point is out.

It's not only NK, what's happening in the Libyan deserts, or the Syrian plains? Same thing to air defense as in NK.

Third point, I just brought up as an example because its shameful and hurtful to talk about that. I hate that time period.

U can't just bring down the cost by having local production. U forget that Pakistan lacks a lot of the industry related to this...like for example we do not make processors...
...while China already has all the relevant industry in place for every single component...at massive scale. They have also produced drones at large scale(including their own domestic use and for exports). So it is highly unlikely that the price would come down any lower than where it already is at(for Chinese drones). The sensors on board, the munitions, flight control systems, SAT link, ground control station, etc...all of these things are costly.

As for the rest of ur post about UCAVs being as effective as they have been in countries like Libya, Armenia, etc...
I have made my argument clear...that it will not be so in case of India/Pak. If u remain unconvinced that's ur choice. Just to reiterate however...some member here mentioned the incident where Pak shot down an Iranian drone. This is a border that is not as heavily monitored by Pak as Indian border is(while India also heavily monitors its border with Pak). So any such drones...will be detected and shot out of the sky quite easily.
...still feel free to believe what u wish. Let's end this discussion here and not derail the thread.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

U can't just bring down the cost by having local production. U forget that Pakistan lacks a lot of the industry related to this...like for example we do not make processors...
...while China already has all the relevant industry in place for every single component...at massive scale. They have also produced drones at large scale(including their own domestic use and for exports). So it is highly unlikely that the price would come down any lower than where it already is at(for Chinese drones). The sensors on board, the munitions, flight control systems, SAT link, ground control station, etc...all of these things are costly.

As for the rest of ur post about UCAVs being as effective as they have been in countries like Libya, Armenia, etc...
I have made my argument clear...that it will not be so in case of India/Pak. If u remain unconvinced that's ur choice. Just to reiterate however...some member here mentioned the incident where Pak shot down an Iranian drone. This is a border that is not as heavily monitored by Pak as Indian border is(while India also heavily monitors its border with Pak). So any such drones...will be detected and shot out of the sky quite easily.
...still feel free to believe what u wish. Let's end this discussion here and not derail the thread.

Hence why I said "would be expensive at first" also refer to "a compliment to..."

No matter how you go around this argument you can not downplay the importance of drones in modern battlefields.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Hence why I said "would be expensive at first" also refer to "a compliment to..."

No matter how you go around this argument you can not downplay the importance of drones in modern battlefields.

The expensive at first would remain that expensive...u can't just infinitely keep bringing the price down of something.

As for the compliment...Pak already operates UCAVs as a "compliment" to other assets of war.

I'm not downplaying them. U said that Pakistan could use the drones like Azerbaijan is using them in Armenia. My argument was a counter to this statement of urs. The effectiveness of drones as u cite them(in Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict) wouldn't be the case in India/Pak scenario.

Now u can either dig in further with what u believe and remain unconvinced or u could look at the points I've brought up and reconsider...
...whatever the case...this discussion is over. Let's not derail the thread.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

The expensive at first would remain that expensive...u can't just infinitely keep bringing the price down of something.

As for the compliment...Pak already operates UCAVs as a "compliment" to other assets of war.

I'm not downplaying them. U said that Pakistan could use the drones like Azerbaijan is using them in Armenia. My argument was a counter to this statement of urs. The effectiveness of drones as u cite them(in Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict) wouldn't be the case in India/Pak scenario.

Now u can either dig in further with what u believe and remain unconvinced or u could look at the points I've brought up and reconsider...
...whatever the case...this discussion is over. Let's not derail the thread.

If not for the east then they can surely be used internally. You can believe what you want and I can believe what I want. what I believe is in this decade or the next most things will be drones. We'll let time prove who stands corrected.

 

[Scorpio]

Yesterday two blurred and heavily censored images (see image 3 & 4) of a J-15 were posted and some claimed it to be a J-15B, which eventually will be built following the current Batch 03 as an improved Batch 04.

 

[baqai]

aray dekho madni fighter

 

[AliYusuf]

The expensive at first would remain that expensive...u can't just infinitely keep bringing the price down of something.

As for the compliment...Pak already operates UCAVs as a "compliment" to other assets of war.

I'm not downplaying them. U said that Pakistan could use the drones like Azerbaijan is using them in Armenia. My argument was a counter to this statement of urs. The effectiveness of drones as u cite them(in Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict) wouldn't be the case in India/Pak scenario.

Now u can either dig in further with what u believe and remain unconvinced or u could look at the points I've brought up and reconsider...
...whatever the case...this discussion is over. Let's not derail the thread.

How about the Turkey's recent use of killer drones in Syria?

Reference Link 1
Reference Link 2

 

[Cookie Monster]

If not for the east then they can surely be used internally. You can believe what you want and I can believe what I want. what I believe is in this decade or the next most things will be drones. We'll let time prove who stands corrected.

Here u r confusing two different concepts of drones.

Go back and read how this all started...
...my argument was that drones as they are currently(commonly used UCAVs of today) are only effective in countries who lack radar coverage, air defenses, capable airforce, etc.

I already said...that for drones to be effective against enemy air defenses(like S400)...that would have to be drone swarms(which are currently under development). U r arguing for current drone types(like CH4) and then saying that we will see that in the future drones will be used very effectively(which are more likely to be drone swarms).
...don't conflate two different ideas(of drones)...stick to ur original argument...and don't put words in my mouth. I never said that drone swarms will be ineffective. If u want time to prove u right...then it better be in a scenario where Pakistan/India use current types of UCAVs(like CH4, Predator, Bayraktar, etc.) against each other in an effective manner without being shot out of the sky right away...if that specific scenario doesn't happen...u will be proven wrong bcuz that was ur whole argument.