F22 - Not invincible

Khafee

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
2,037
Country
United Arab Emirates
Location
Saudi Arabia
@Mastankhan Your input on this thread would be appreciated
 

Tps77

THINK TANK
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Messages
231
Reaction score
358
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
@khafee u explained really well, let me add something more , Vera wirks in coordination with ground aesa radar and awacs ground station its actually a whole network and a complex one . Paf and many other AF's work on this pattern . People saying 5 gen is undetectable is not not yes it makes things difficult but not invisible . Every technology has a counter technology always remember this.
 

Khafee

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
2,037
Country
United Arab Emirates
Location
Saudi Arabia
@khafee u explained really well, let me add something more , Vera wirks in coordination with ground aesa radar and awacs ground station its actually a whole network and a complex one . Paf and many other AF's work on this pattern . People saying 5 gen is undetectable is not not yes it makes things difficult but not invisible . Every technology has a counter technology always remember this.
Very well said!

History will remember the Serbs, as the ones who first took out a stealth aircraft, F117A Night Hawk a.k.a. wobbly goblin, back in March 1999

800px-F-117_canopy.jpg

Canopy of F-117, serial number 82-0806; Belgrade Aviation Museum


dcp01494.jpg

Tail of downed a/c 806


Serbian_poster_'Sorry_we_didn't_know_it_was_invisible'.jpg

Boys, being boys! |0|
 

Tps77

THINK TANK
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Messages
231
Reaction score
358
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Very well said!

History will remember the Serbs, as the ones who first took out a stealth aircraft, F117A Night Hawk a.k.a. wobbly goblin, back in March 1999

View attachment 4454
Canopy of F-117, serial number 82-0806; Belgrade Aviation Museum

View attachment 4455
Boys, being boys! |0|
Very well said!

History will remember the Serbs, as the ones who first took out a stealth aircraft, F117A Night Hawk a.k.a. wobbly goblin, back in March 1999

View attachment 4454
Canopy of F-117, serial number 82-0806; Belgrade Aviation Museum

View attachment 4455
Boys, being boys! |0|
:|}{ well serbs deserve there name in history ~^~
 

Atalay

THINK TANK
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
340
Reaction score
281
Country
Turkey
Location
Germany
Last edited:

Khafee

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
2,037
Country
United Arab Emirates
Location
Saudi Arabia
Could be mobile TAMARA system which used only non cooperative Radio , TV and other emitters;
Tamara made a complex signal runtime calculation. The stationary version is called FLORA.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamara_(Sensorsystem)


ERA is a further improved version. US Gov. prevented delivery to China in 2004.

View attachment 4457
3rd Gen Passive System Tamara:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamara_passive_sensor

4th Gen Passive System Vera:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VERA_passive_sensor

http://www.era.cz/military-security/vera-ng
 

Khafee

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
2,037
Country
United Arab Emirates
Location
Saudi Arabia
Do you see that little thing under the body? That makes it visible.

This is called a Luneburg Lens. On the F22 it can deployed and withdrawn at the flick of a switch.


Stealth aircrafts, carny similar RCS enhancers especially, when transiting, or training, as you can see from the F35 and F117 pics below.
kx590ed1bf.jpg
screen shot 2017-05-05 at 32321 pm.png
F-117_Reflectors.jpg
 

Khafee

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
2,037
Country
United Arab Emirates
Location
Saudi Arabia
The following OP, gives a very good idea about the F22 and stealth in general. It is a must read for anyone trying to grasp what actually is stealth.

****************************************************************************************************************************************
Revealed: China's Radars Can Track America's Stealthy F-22 Raptor
by Dave Majumdar
February 19, 2016

State-run Chinese media is claiming that the People’s Liberation Army has been able to track the U.S. Air Force’s Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor stealth fighters over the East China Sea. While the Chinese report might be easily dismissed as propaganda—it is not beyond the realm of possibility. In fact—it’s very possible that China can track the Raptor. Stealth is not a cloak of invisibility, after all. Stealth technology simply delays detection and tracking.

First off, if a Raptor is carrying external fuel tanks—as it often does during “ferry missions”—it is not in a stealth configuration. Moreover, the aircraft is often fitted with a Luneburg lens device on its ventral side during peacetime operations that enhances its cross section on radar.

That being said, even combat-configured F-22s are not invisible to enemy radar, contrary to popular belief. Neither is any other tactical fighter-sized stealth aircraft with empennage surfaces such as tailfins—the F-35, PAK-FA, J-20 or J-31. That’s just basic physics.

The laws of physics essentially dictate that a tactical fighter-sized stealth aircraft must be optimized to defeat higher-frequency bands such the C, X, Ku and the top part of the S bands. There is a “step change” in a Low Observable (LO) aircraft’s signature once the frequency wavelength exceeds a certain threshold and causes a resonant effect. Typically, that resonance occurs when a feature on an aircraft—such as a tail-fin — is less than eight times the size of a particular frequency wavelength. Effectively, small stealth aircraft that do not have the size or weight allowances for two feet or more of radar absorbent material coatings on every surface are forced to make trades as to which frequency bands they are optimized for.

Therefore, a radar operating at a lower-frequency band such as parts of the S or L band—like civilian air traffic control (ATC) radars—are almost certainly able to detect and track tactical fighter-sized stealth aircraft. However, a larger stealth aircraft like the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit, which lacks many of the features that cause a resonance effect, is much more effective against low-frequency radars than, for example, an F-35 or F-22. Typically, however, those lower-frequency radars do not provide what Pentagon officials call a “weapons quality” track needed to guide a missile onto a target. “Even if you can see an LO [low observable] strike aircraft with ATC radar, you can’t kill it without a fire control system,” an Air Force official had told me.

That being said, Russia, China and others are developing advanced UHF and VHF band early warning radars that use even longer wavelengths in an effort to cue their other sensors and give their fighters some idea of where an adversary stealth aircraft might be coming from. But the problem with VHF and UHF band radars is that with long wavelengths come large radar resolution cells. That means that contacts are not tracked with the required level of fidelity to guide a weapon onto a target. As one U.S. Navy officer rhetorically asked, “Does the mission require a cloaking device or is it OK if the threat sees it but can’t do anything about it?”

Traditionally, guiding weapons with low frequency radars has been limited by two factors. One factor is the width of the radar beam, while the second is the width of the radar pulse—but both limitations can be overcome with signal processing. Phased array radars—particularly active electronically scanned arrays (AESA)—solve the problem of directional or azimuth resolution because they can steer their radar beams electronically. Moreover, AESA radars can generate multiple beams and can shape those beams for width, sweep rate and other characteristics. Indeed, some industry experts suggested that a combination of high-speed data-links and low-frequency phased-array radars could generate a weapons quality track.

The U.S. Navy and Lockheed may have already solved the problem. The service openly talks about the E-2D’s role as the central node of its NIFC-CA battle network to defeat enemy air and missile threats. Rear Adm. Mike Manazir, the Navy’s director of air warfare, described the concept in detail at the U.S. Naval Institute just before Christmas in 2013.

Under the NIFC-CA ‘From the Air’ (FTA) construct, the APY-9 radar would act as a sensor to cue Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles for Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets fighters via the Link-16 datalink. Moreover, the APY-9 would also act as a sensor to guide Raytheon Standard SM-6 missiles launched from Aegis cruisers and destroyers against targets located beyond the ships’ SPY-1 radars’ horizon via the Cooperative Engagement Capability datalink under the NIFC-CA ‘From the Sea’ (FTS) construct. In fact, the Navy has demonstrated live-fire NIFC-CA missile shots using the E-2D’s radar to guide SM-6 missiles against over-the-horizon shots—which by definition means the APY-9 is generating a weapons quality track.

That effectively means that stealthy tactical aircraft must operate alongside electronic attack platforms the like Boeing EA-18G Growler. It is also why the Pentagon has been shoring up American investments in electronic and cyber warfare. As one Air Force official explained, stealth and electronic attack always have a synergistic relationship because detection is about the signal-to-noise ratio. Low observables reduce the signal, while electronic attack increases the noise. “Any big picture plan, looking forward, to deal with emerging A2/AD threats will address both sides of that equation,” he said.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/revealed-can-chinas-radars-track-americas-stealth-f-22-15261
 

Khafee

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
2,037
Country
United Arab Emirates
Location
Saudi Arabia
Agreed but the question here is can it be detected by radar with its small RCS?
The Ukrainians have also come up with thier version of anti-stealth radar, called MR-18


dde7c56176f138200b52666026788498.jpg


The new MR18 high-mobility surveillance metric wave radar is developed by Iskra Scientific and Production Complex, a part of UkrOboronProm.

The radar is based on a digital phased array and allows to detect Stealth airborne objects.

MR-18 is designed for automatic detection, tracking and measuring the azimuth, range, and rate of speed of the air facilities, including produced using the technology of low radar signature

MR-18 is a fully solid state digital radar with a phased antenna array with digital formation of beams on Reception and transmission, digital signal filtering and digital processing of information.

In addition to the wide application of digital technology, it used the latest achievements of the analog circuitry. In particular, for the MR-18 was developed receivers with a dynamic range of 100 db.

It has enhanced protection from active, passive, synchronous and asynchronous impulse noise, and also performs the task of detection and tracking in automatic mode.

The radar is mounted on all terrain truck, and an be ready for action in <5mins.

The new MR18 radar system is based on the chassis of KrAZ high-mobility cross-country truck chassis.

BASIC TECHNICAL DATA:
  • Operating frequency range UHF
  • Maximum radar operation limits in range, 400 km
  • Scanning interval, 10, 20 s
  • Clutter suppression, 50 dB
  • Amming cancelling, 20 dB
  • Track throughput, more than 300
  • Number of transport units 1
  • Deployment/closing time, 5/3 min
 

Khafee

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
2,037
Country
United Arab Emirates
Location
Saudi Arabia
The F-22 Raptor's Replacement Is Starting to Take Shape
By Kyle Mizokami
Aug 23, 2017
"Penetrating Counter Air" will be stealthier, longer ranged and carry new, deadly missiles.


landscape-1490640130-boeing-fx-2016-3-2.jpg


The U.S. Air Force is finalizing technology requirements for a new fighter jet to enter service sometime in the 2030s. Known as "Penetrating Counter Air," the new fighter will replace the F-22 Raptor and maintain American air superiority in future conflicts. The sixth generation fighter will incorporate a number of new technologies that for now exist only on the drawing board.

Citing the existence of advanced Russian weapons such as the S-400 air defense missile system and the Su-57 (formerly PAK-FA) fighter, Air Combat Command commander General Mike Holmes told Aviation Week & Space Technology that while the F-22 and F-35 will continue to be improved, "Eventually you will run into a limit in your ability to improve those platforms, and so we need to have something else ready."

The U.S. hasn't designed a clean-sheet fighter in twenty years, and Penetrating Counter Air (PCA) will differ from the F-22 and F-35 in some ways to deal with new strategic realities. For one thing, PCA will emphasize range, particularly in order to fly escort missions for B-2 and B-21 bombers over Russia and against China in the Asia-Pacific. These sort of missions were unthinkable just five years ago.

The problem is, an efficient engine that sips fuel is a different beast from a high-performance engine meant to give fighters an edge in air-to-air combat. The Air Force hopes for the best of both worlds with so-called "three-stream propulsion," which uses a third air stream to make the engine more efficient or provide more thrust.

PCA will also be stealthy, and likely lose vertical tail fins that are standard on all aircraft, from the P-51 Mustang to the F-22 Raptor. Vertical tail fins are major impediments to achieving durable stealth against various types of radars, and were first ditched with the B-2 Spirit bomber. (In fact, there will probably never be a U.S. combat aircraft built with a vertical tail fin ever again, unless stealth technology was so compromised it became irrelevant.)

Aviation Week also reports that the USAF is seeking funding for a new "Air Dominance Air-to-Air Weapon" likely to replace the AIM-120 AMRAAM medium-range air-to-air missile. AMRAAM is a thirty year old missile and is being eclipsed by other designs, including Japan's AAM-4B and the UK's Meteor missile.

The Air Force has requested $294.7 million in fiscal 2018 to continue studying PCA and nailing down specifications.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a27890/penetrating-counter-air-f-22-raptor-replacement/
 

Atalay

THINK TANK
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
340
Reaction score
281
Country
Turkey
Location
Germany
The F-22 Raptor's Replacement Is Starting to Take Shape
By Kyle Mizokami
Aug 23, 2017
"Penetrating Counter Air" will be stealthier, longer ranged and carry new, deadly missiles.


View attachment 4585

The U.S. Air Force is finalizing technology requirements for a new fighter jet to enter service sometime in the 2030s. Known as "Penetrating Counter Air," the new fighter will replace the F-22 Raptor and maintain American air superiority in future conflicts. The sixth generation fighter will incorporate a number of new technologies that for now exist only on the drawing board.

Citing the existence of advanced Russian weapons such as the S-400 air defense missile system and the Su-57 (formerly PAK-FA) fighter, Air Combat Command commander General Mike Holmes told Aviation Week & Space Technology that while the F-22 and F-35 will continue to be improved, "Eventually you will run into a limit in your ability to improve those platforms, and so we need to have something else ready."

The U.S. hasn't designed a clean-sheet fighter in twenty years, and Penetrating Counter Air (PCA) will differ from the F-22 and F-35 in some ways to deal with new strategic realities. For one thing, PCA will emphasize range, particularly in order to fly escort missions for B-2 and B-21 bombers over Russia and against China in the Asia-Pacific. These sort of missions were unthinkable just five years ago.

The problem is, an efficient engine that sips fuel is a different beast from a high-performance engine meant to give fighters an edge in air-to-air combat. The Air Force hopes for the best of both worlds with so-called "three-stream propulsion," which uses a third air stream to make the engine more efficient or provide more thrust.

PCA will also be stealthy, and likely lose vertical tail fins that are standard on all aircraft, from the P-51 Mustang to the F-22 Raptor. Vertical tail fins are major impediments to achieving durable stealth against various types of radars, and were first ditched with the B-2 Spirit bomber. (In fact, there will probably never be a U.S. combat aircraft built with a vertical tail fin ever again, unless stealth technology was so compromised it became irrelevant.)

Aviation Week also reports that the USAF is seeking funding for a new "Air Dominance Air-to-Air Weapon" likely to replace the AIM-120 AMRAAM medium-range air-to-air missile. AMRAAM is a thirty year old missile and is being eclipsed by other designs, including Japan's AAM-4B and the UK's Meteor missile.

The Air Force has requested $294.7 million in fiscal 2018 to continue studying PCA and nailing down specifications.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a27890/penetrating-counter-air-f-22-raptor-replacement/
U.S. F-22 Raptor Allegedly Interfered With Russian Su-25s Over Syria And “Chased Away” By Su-35S, Russian MoD Claims
By David Cenciotti

A close encounter between an F-22, two Su-25s and one Su-35S occurred over Syria some weeks ago. Many things about the incident are yet to be explained though. CENTCOM: “There is no truth to this allegation.”
Several Russian media outlets are reporting an incident that involved a U.S. F-22 and some Russian aircraft over Syria, to the west of the Euphrates on Nov. 23, 2017. Some details of the close encounter were unveiled by the Russian MoD’s spokesman, Major General Igor Konashenkov, who described the episode “as yet another example of US aircraft attempts to prevent Russian forces from carrying out strikes against Islamic State,” according to RT.

According to the Russian account, a Russian Su-35S was scrambled after a U.S. F-22 interfered with two Su-25s that were bombing an Islamic State target. Here’s Sputnik news version:

An American F-22 fighter actively prevented the Russian pair of Su-25 attack aircraft from carrying out a combat mission to destroy the Daesh stronghold in the suburbs of the city of Mayadin in the airspace over the western bank of the Euphrates River on November 23. The F-22 aircraft fired off heat flares and released brake shields with permanent maneuvering, imitating an air battle.”
At the same time, he [Major-General Igor Konashenkov, the Russian Defense Ministry’s spokesperson] noted that “after the appearance of a Russian multifunctional super maneuverable Su-35S fighter, the American fighter stopped dangerous maneuvers and hurried to move into Iraqi airspace.”​
Many things are yet to be explained making the story really hard to believe:

  • it’s not clear why the F-22 was flying alone (most probably another Raptor was nearby);
  • why did the stealth jet release flares and perform hard maneuvering (lacking a direct radio contact, was the American pilot trying to catch the Russian pilots attention using unconventional signalling)?
  • was the F-22 mission a “show of force”?
  • what are the RoE (Rules Of Engagement) in place over Syria?
  • were there other coalition aircraft nearby? Where? Did they take part in the action?
  • how was a Su-35 scrambled from Hmeymim airbase able to chase away the F-22? Did the Flanker reach the area in time to persuade the Raptor to leave?
Update Dec. 10, 06:53 GMT: we have just received an email from CENTCOM CJTF OIR PAO with their version of the alleged incident that denies and debunks the Russian MoD claims:

There is no truth to this allegation. According to our flight logs for Nov 23, 2017, this alleged incident did not take place, nor has there been any instance where a Coalition aircraft crossed the river without first deconflicting with the Russians via the deconfliction phone line set up for this purpose. Of note, on Nov 23, 2017, there were approximately nine instances where Russian fighter aircraft crossed to the east side of the Euphrates River into Coalition airspace without first using the deconfliction phone. This random and unprofessional activity placed Coalition and Russian aircrew at risk, as well as jeopardizing Coalition ability to support partner ground forces in the area.
Any claims that the Coalition would protect Daesh, or hinder, a strike against Daesh are completely false. We strike them hard wherever they are found. What we can tell you is that we actively deconflict the airspace in Syria with the Russians to ensure the enduring defeat of Daesh in the region. We will continue to work with our SDF partners, just as we will continue to deconflict with the Russians for future Coalition strikes against Daesh targets in Syria.​
Anyway, the (alleged) episode reminds the incident that occurred on Jun. 18, 2017, when an F/A-18E Super Hornet belonging to the VFA-87 “Golden Warriors” and piloted by Lt. Cmdr. Michael “Mob” Tremel,” shot down a Syrian Arab Air Force Su-22 Fitter near the town of Resafa (40 km to the southwest of Raqqa, Syria), after the pro-Assad Syrian Air Force ground attack aircraft had bombed Coalition-friendly SDF positions. In the official statement released from the Coalition about the incident the Combined Joint Task Force stated, “The Coalition’s mission is to defeat ISIS in Iraq and Syria. The Coalition does not seek to fight the Syrian regime, Russian, or pro-regime forces partnered with them, but will not hesitate to defend Coalition partner forces from any threat.”

If confirmed, the one on Nov. 23 would be the first “official” close encounter between F-22 and the Su-35 over Syria.

The Su-35 is a 4++ generation aircraft characterized by supermaneuverability. Although it’s not stealth, it is equipped with a Irbis-E PESA (Passive Electronically-Scanned Array) and a long-range IRST – Infrared Search and Tracking – system capable, (according to Russian sources…) to detect stealth planes like the F-35 at a distance of over 90 kilometers.


https://theaviationist.com/2017/12/09/u-s-f-22-raptor-allegedly-interfered-with-russian-su-25s-over-syria-and-chased-away-by-su-35s-russian-mod-claims/
 

WebMaster

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
1,217
Reaction score
1,097
I didn’t go over the whole article but is the F-22 going to be phased out!
 

Atalay

THINK TANK
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
340
Reaction score
281
Country
Turkey
Location
Germany
F-22 and F-35 will continue to be improved, "Eventually you will run into a limit in your ability to improve those platforms, and so we need to have something else ready.
No sir. The USA try only to keep being the dominant "ultrapower" , cause new superpower nations are coming.
 

Khafee

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
2,037
Country
United Arab Emirates
Location
Saudi Arabia
I didn’t go over the whole article but is the F-22 going to be phased out!
Not until it's replacement, the "Penetrating Counter Air" comes, and that will be in the 2030's.

In the mean time the F22's capabilities will keep on growing.
 

WebMaster

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
1,217
Reaction score
1,097
Not until it's replacement, the "Penetrating Counter Air" comes, and that will be in the 2030's.

In the mean time the F22's capabilities will keep on growing.
The F-22 was introduced early 2000s and it's illogical to phase it out so early for no reason. At least keep the production line running by introducing an export version to the market.
 
Top