Indonesia eyes American F-16 jets as it moves to secure Russian Su-35 deal | World Defense

Indonesia eyes American F-16 jets as it moves to secure Russian Su-35 deal

Scorpion

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Indonesia eyes American F-16 jets as it moves to secure Russian Su-35 deal


An artist's rendering of an Indonesian Air Force F-16 Block 72 fighter jet. (Lockheed Martin)

MELBOURNE, Australia — Indonesia is looking to acquire two squadrons of new F-16 fighter jets from the United States, even as it pushes ahead with plans to buy Russian Sukhoi Su-35s, according to the chief of the Indonesian Air Force.
In remarks carried by state-owned national news agency Antara on Oct. 28, Air Marshal Yuyu Sutisna said the southeast Asian nation plans to submit a request to buy two squadrons of Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 72 fighters by January 2020.
Sutisna said the F-16 acquisition will be part of Indonesia’s next five-year strategic plan, running from 2020-2024, Antara reported. The officer made the announcement during a visit to Roesmin Nurjadin Airbase in Pekanbaru, the capital of Riau Province on the western Indonesian island of Sumatra.
He did not elaborate on the exact number of F-16s Indonesia plans to buy, as that will depend on how much money the government can set aside for the acquisition, which will be collected separately from the already allocated defense budget of $7.7 billion.
Sustina also said Indonesia is still pursuing the Russian Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker interceptor, although that effort has encountered several delays. The Su-35s are earmarked as a replacement for Indonesia’s Northrop F-5E/F interceptors, which are no longer in service.

The already-protracted contract negotiations with Russia are further complicated by Indonesia’s concerns over CAATSA, an American law that could apply a variety of sanctions to individuals and organizations that engage in “transactions with the intelligence or defense sectors of the Russian Federation.”
Indonesia is seeking 11 Su-35s from Russia and hopes to pay for these with both cash and the exchange of a variety of local commodities.
Indonesia’s Air Force operates Su-27SKs and Su-30MK2s acquired earlier this decade from Russia. Indonesia has a policy of diversifying its arms purchases to reduce over-reliance on a single source of supply.

The island nation also operates earlier versions of the F-16, with 18 single-seat F-16Cs and five two-seater F-16Ds delivered under the Peace Bima Sena II program. The jets are used by the Air Force’s 3 and 16 squadrons alongside Block 15 F-16A/B aircraft, of which eight were acquired in the 1980s.

The F-16C/Ds are former U.S. Air Force and Air National Guard aircraft that were in storage and subsequently offered to Indonesia in 2011 under the U.S. Excess Defense Articles program. Indonesian Air Force engineers are locally upgrading the F-16A/Bs with assistance from Lockheed Martin.

The 24 jets were upgraded with the installation of a new modular mission computer, Link 16 data links and a self-protection suite under a Foreign Military Sales package worth $750 million before delivery to Indonesia, although one was subsequently destroyed in a fire in 2015 after running off the runway during its takeoff roll.
 

TomCat

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@Khafee Others are going ahead and we are where we are ?
Any further update or no?
 

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@Khafee Others are going ahead and we are where we are ?
Any further update or no?
Pakistan used the Russian card to press for more f-16 from the US. I think, EF, Dassault Rafale would be great alternatives.

In 2018 only Pakistan received the following:


China
. . Red Arrow-8 Anti-tank missile 1989 1990-2018 (24350) Pakistani designation Baktar Shikan
. . QW-1 Vanguard Portable SAM (1993) 1994-2018 (2250) Pakistani designation Anza-2
(530) Type-90-2M/MBT-2000 Tank (1998) 2001-2018 (340) Al-Khalid and Al-Khalid-I (or Al-Khalid-1) versions
(50) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 FGA aircraft (2011) 2015-2018 (50) JF-17 Block-2 version
(50) JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 FGA aircraft (2012) JF-17 Block-3 version; delivery planned from 2020
2 Azmat Corvette (2013) 2017 1 Delivery planned 2017-218
2 CSTC-1500 OPV 2015 2018 1 Designation uncertain (reported as '1500t patrol vessel' from Chinese company CSTC); for coast guard; incl 1 produced in Pakistan; Pakistani designation Hingol; delivery probably planned 2018-2019/2020
4 CSTC-600 OPV 2015 2016-2018 (4) Designation uncertain (reported as '600t patrol vessel' from Chinese company CSTC); for coast guard; incl 2 produced in Pakistan; Pakistani designation Hingol
8 Type-041/Yuan Submarine (2015) Probably S-20 version; incl 4 produced in Pakistan; delivery 2022-2028
JF-17 Thunder/FC-1 FGA aircraft (2016) 2018 (13) JF-17 Block-2 version; incl JF-17B version; produced in Pakistan
(600) PL-12/SD-10 BVRAAM (2006) 2010-2018 (425) For JF-17 and possibly modernized Mirage-3/5 combat aircraft
(1000) PL-5E SRAAM (2006) 2009-2018 (860) For JF-17 combat aircraft; PL-5E-II version
(100) C-802/CSS-N-8 Anti-ship missile (2008) 2012-2018 (70) For JF-17 combat aircraft
(750) LS-3 Guided bomb (2008) 2010-2018 (650) For JF-17 combat aircraft
(1000) LS-6-500 Guided bomb (2008) 2010-2017 (625) For JF-17 combat aircraft
(750) LT-2 Guided bomb (2008) 2010-2018 (625) For JF-17 combat aircraft
(150) WMD-7 Aircraft EO system (2008) 2009-2018 (95) For JF-17 combat aircraft
(30) C-802/CSS-N-8 Anti-ship missile (2013) 2017 (15) For Azmat FAC
(80) C-802/CSS-N-8 Anti-ship missile (2015) For 6 Type-041 (S-20) submarines
(100) SET-65 Yenot-2 ASW torpedo (2015) Yu-3 version; for Type-041 submarines
(100) Yu-4 533mm AS torpedo (2015) For 6 Type-041 submarines
(4) Type-054A/Jiangkai-2 Frigate (2017) Option on 2 more

France

R: Pakistan 2 MESMA AIP engine 2007 For modernization of 2 Agosta-90B submarines

Germany

R: Pakistan 8 MTU-595 Diesel engine (2018) For 4 MilGem frigates from Turkey

Italy

R: Pakistan 245 M-109A1 155mm Self-propelled gun 2015 2017-2018 (120) Second-hand; M-109L version
(79) Puma APV 2015 2018 79 Second-hand; 6X6 version
() AW139 Helicopter 2017 2016-2017 3
(15) AW139 Helicopter 2017 2017-2018 (15)
4 Super Rapid 76mm Naval gun (2018) For 4 MilGem frigates from Turkey

Netherlands

R: Pakistan 2 OPV-1800 OPV 2017 From Romanian production line

Russia

R: Pakistan (220) RD-33 Turbofan (2004) 2007-2018 (157) RD-93 version; for JF-17 combat aircraft from China
4 Mi-35M Combat helicopter 2015 2018 4 Possibly second-hand Mi-24 rebuilt to Mi-35M before delivery

Sweden

R: Pakistan . . RBS-70 Portable SAM (1985) 1988-2018 (1475) Probably incl RBS-70 Mk-3 version; produced in Pakistan
4 Saab-2000 Transport aircraft 2016 2016-2018 4 Second-hand

Turkey

R: Pakistan 1 Moawin Oiler 2013 2018 1 $80 m deal; produced in Pakistan; Pakistani designation Moawin
4 MilGem Frigate 2018 Incl 2 produced in Pakistan; delivery planned 2023-2025
16 ASELPOD Aircraft EO system 2017 2018 (16) $25 m deal; for JF-17 combat aircraft
30 A-129C Mangusta Combat helicopter 2018 $1.5 b deal; T-129 version; delivery planned by 2022/2023

Ukraine

R: Pakistan 110 6TD Diesel engine 2013 2014-2018 (90) $50 m deal; for Al-Khalid (Type-90-2 or MBT-2000) tanks from China and Al-Khalid ABL produced in Pakistan; incl spare engines
200 6TD Diesel engine 2016 For Al-Khalid (Type-90-2M or MBT-2000) tanks from China and Al-Khalid ABL produced in Pakistan; incl spare engines

United Kingdom

R: Pakistan 1 Sea King HAR-3 Transport helicopter 2016 2018 1 Second-hand; Sea king HAR-3A version
2 Seaspray MP aircraft radar (2016) 2018 (1) Seaspray-7300 version; for use on ATR-72 maritime patrol aircraft
4 Sea King/Commando Transport helicopter 2017 2017-2018 4 Second-hand (2 more delivered for spare parts); Commando HC-4+ version

United States

R: Pakistan 2 King Air-350 ISR AGS aircraft (2011) 2013-2018 (2) King Air-350 ISR version; aid
(1000) AGM-114K HELLFIRE Anti-tank missile 2015 For AH-1Z combat helicopters
12 AH-1Z Viper Combat helicopter 2015 Delivery delayed after USA suspends military aid for Pakistan in 2018
(30) MaxxPro APC 2016 2018 (10) Second-hand; ARV version
4 LM-2500 Gas turbine (2018) For 4 MilGem frigates from Turkey
 

Indos

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Could please shed a light on the highlighted part @Indos
Half of the payment will use commodities like palm oil so that Indonesia doesnt need to spend in USD. This kind of payment is also used by Malaysia when they bought their Su 30 from Russia. Russia has already approved this kind of payment. This is also the reason of why Su 35 is chosen by Indonesia government to replace its F 5 squadron instead of F 16 block 70.

As I said earlier in other thread, this administration focuses too much on economy so they choose to limit any spending on USD as much as possible, and because defense procurement dont create any return economically, it then become the sector that most suffer from that policy. There is no meaningful defense acquisition made by this administration in term of foreign equipment. It is also the reason of why I am not so optimistic about the plan to buy 2 squadron of F 16 block 70 since the statement comes from Air Force chief of staff. It is still too early since it is not coming from Minister of Defense who is the one in charge in our Armed Force budget planning. And the last word is owned by Finance Minister and President.

And with the administration general policy to limit any spending in USD, the acquisition plan IMO can be easily changed or rejected by Finance Minister and President. Even if we add KFX/IFX program into this equation, with the fact that we have commitment to pay 20 % of development cost plus buying 48 of the plane in which we get so much difficulty to fulfill it, it makes any planning to procure F 16 block 70 becomes absurd and not realistic.
 
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TomCat

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Half of the payment will use commodities like palm oil so that Indonesia doesnt need to spend in USD. This kind of payment is also used by Malaysia when they bought their Su 30 from Russia. Russia has already approved this kind of payment. This is also the reason of why Su 35 is chosen by Indonesia government to replace its F 5 squadron instead of F 16 block 70.

As I said earlier in other thread, this administration focuses too much on economy so they choose to limit any spending on USD as much as possible,
WIN-WIN for both countries. Let's trade in mangoes with china and USA and get J-20 and F-18 |0|
 
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The best payment system we could possibly dream of as a buyer ';';'
Even if half is paid with palm oil and the other half as cold hard cash...for Su35 and F16s...it's still a lot of money. Considering that Indonesia is already behind in paying its share in KFX program...wouldnt that create more hurdles in pursuing KFX?

Maybe later down the road Indonesia can work with Pak when Azm has moved off the drawing board and leave KFX ‘∞‘
 

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Even if half is paid with palm oil and the other half as cold hard cash...for Su35 and F16s...it's still a lot of money. Considering that Indonesia is already behind in paying its share in KFX program...wouldnt that create more hurdles in pursuing KFX?

Maybe later down the road Indonesia can work with Pak when Azm has moved off the drawing board and leave KFX ‘∞‘
Korea is already pissed off at indonesia for delaying investment share in the project due to a simple reason “We are allocating funds for public instead of jet procurement” and here we are.... F-16 and SU-35 talks...
 

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The best payment system we could possibly dream of as a buyer ';';'
Do you see KFX happening in future with Indonesia staying as a partner in the project?
 

Indos

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Even if half is paid with palm oil and the other half as cold hard cash...for Su35 and F16s...it's still a lot of money. Considering that Indonesia is already behind in paying its share in KFX program...wouldnt that create more hurdles in pursuing KFX?

Maybe later down the road Indonesia can work with Pak when Azm has moved off the drawing board and leave KFX ‘∞‘
Thats why I said in my post that the plan to buy 2 squadron of F 16 is absurd.

Indonesia has already got design experience with stealth fighter since 2011 when PT DI and ADD Korea start doing research together and resulted with KFX 103 who become the basis of KFX 109 design (Final design of KFX). When the program was delayed by Korean in 2014, Indonesia start its own stealth fighter program with the code name LFX. The program then was stopped when KFX/IFX is continued. This program can be restarted again If something happen with KFX program that make Indonesia leave the program.

Of course there is possibility that Indonesia and Pakistan will collaborate to produce stealth jet fighter together, but not with this administration. We have to wait until 2024 where new Indonesian leader will come up. Jokowi doesnt have too much ambition on high tech program, even our space agency (LAPAN) propose budget is always cut by Jokowi since 2015 until now. The cut is effected our rocket program that is started by SBY administration but he seems not to care.

LFX (Lapan Fighter Experiment) design

1573806769872.png
 
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Indos

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Do you see KFX happening in future with Indonesia staying as a partner in the project?
The renegotiation is still happening and look like to be concluded in the next 2-3 months. I am optimistic with the new defense minister (Jokowi opponent during 2019 election who is an ambitious guy) but Jokowi is still in charge so I can say the chance is 60:40. Indonesia want to decrease its financial commitment, so Indonesia participation also will depend on Korean, whether the Korean will allow the decrease to happen or not ?
 

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Thats why I said in my post that the plan to buy 2 squadron of F 16 is absurd.

Indonesia has already got design experience with stealth fighter since 2011 when PT DI and ADD Korea start doing research together and resulted with KFX 103 who become the basis of KFX 109 design (Final design of KFX). When the program was delayed by Korean in 2014, Indonesia start its own stealth fighter program with the code name LFX. The program then was stopped when KFX/IFX is continued. This program can be restarted again If something happen with KFX program that make Indonesia leave the program.

Of course there is possibility that Indonesia and Pakistan will collaborate to produce stealth jet fighter together, but not with this administration. We have to wait until 2024 where new Indonesian leader will come up. Jokowi doesnt have too much ambition on high tech program, even our space agency (LAPAN) propose budget is always cut by Jokowi since 2015 until now. The cut is effected our rocket program that is started by SBY administration but he seems not to care.

LFX (Lapan Fighter Experiment) design

View attachment 11727
Indonesia doesn’t have major or immediate threats as compared to korea or Pak...
 

Indos

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Indonesia doesn’t have major or immediate threats as compared to korea or Pak...
Actually with the rise of China and with China militarization in South China Sea, Indonesia should become more cautious. With its 9 dash line territorial claim and the building of many China artificial islands in SCS, Indonesia and China has become close neighbor now. For your information, we have natuna islands which is located in South China Sea. Our territory in SCS sea is quite big.

Before, we are always considered as a big kid in the neighborhood, but it seems not anymore now. China has also spent more money to build aircraft carriers, it reflect its ambition to muscle its power in SCS. With the changing equilibrium in the region, Indonesia should also be more prepared. This is also why Indonesia has build military base in Natuna and conduct military drills there. But that is not enough.

Despite his lack of vision, particularly in high tech program, Jokowi still has some good policy though, particularly in economy. Jokowi main focus is economy and he wants to fix our trade balance problem and build infrastructure massively to make our economy competitive. After he complete his period in 2024, I hope Indonesia trade deficit problem is fixed so that we can see stronger currency. With strong currency, it means Indonesia can spend more on any defense procurement using USD and can lend more from foreign bank to finance its defense programs, as we know we have obligation to procure 50 KFX and it needs a lot of USD to finance it.

Current defense budget only uses 4 % (2020 budget/9 billion USD) of our total government spending, the ideal portion IMO is 8 % so that we can have at least 18 billion USD per year for defense. With IMF prediction that Indonesia will have GDP of 1,6 Trillion USD in 2024, I think having 18 billion USD for defense budget is also reasonable.

That is why I hope Korea will let Indonesia decrease its investment contribution from 20 % into 15 % since I think Indonesia will be able to buy KFX more than even 100 after 2024 with the new administrations coming in. And since we have law that favor defense equipment made by our defense industry, its make Airforce dont have any choice except buying KFX/IFX when they want to procure fighters.
 

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Actually with the rise of China and with China militarization in South China Sea, Indonesia should become more cautious. With its 9 dash line territorial claim and the building of many China artificial islands in SCS, Indonesia and China has become close neighbor now. For your information, we have natuna islands which is located in South China Sea. Our territory in SCS sea is quite big.

Before, we are always considered as a big kid in the neighborhood, but it seems not anymore now. China has also spent more money to build aircraft carriers, it reflect its ambition to muscle its power in SCS. With the changing equilibrium in the region, Indonesia should also be more prepared. This is also why Indonesia has build military base in Natuna and conduct military drills there. But that is not enough.

Despite his lack of vision, particularly in high tech program, Jokowi still has some good policy though, particularly in economy. Jokowi main focus is economy and he wants to fix our trade balance problem and build infrastructure massively to make our economy competitive. After he complete his period in 2024, I hope Indonesia trade deficit problem is fixed so that we can see stronger currency. With strong currency, it means Indonesia can spend more on any defense procurement using USD and can lend more from foreign bank to finance its defense programs, as we know we have obligation to procure 50 KFX and it needs a lot of USD to finance it.

Current defense budget only uses 4 % (2020 budget/9 billion USD) of our total government spending, the ideal portion IMO is 8 % so that we can have at least 18 billion USD per year for defense. With IMF prediction that Indonesia will have GDP of 1,6 Trillion USD in 2024, I think having 18 billion USD for defense budget is also reasonable.

That is why I hope Korea will let Indonesia decrease its investment contribution from 20 % into 15 % since I think Indonesia will be able to buy KFX more than even 100 after 2024 with the new administrations coming in. And since we have law that favor defense equipment made by our defense industry, its make Airforce dont have any choice except buying KFX/IFX when they want to procure fighters.
Thanks for the detailed information. I appreciate. To How extent is USA supporting or more specifically favoring for it’s own interests indonesia currently?
 
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