Indonesia eyes American F-16 jets as it moves to secure Russian Su-35 deal

[Indos]

Thanks for the detailed information. I appreciate. To How extent is USA supporting or more specifically favoring for it’s own interests indonesia currently?

Your welcome,

The support I think is gotten in the form of joint military training and weapons that we can buy from US. US freedom of navigation operation in SCS is also much appreciated by Indonesian since this operation will ensure SCS region will not be exclusively own by just one country.

Some joint military trainings that are regularly held in Indonesia.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Korea is already pissed off at indonesia for delaying investment share in the project due to a simple reason “We are allocating funds for public instead of jet procurement” and here we are.... F-16 and SU-35 talks...

Which is why I'm being a typical desi and wanting Indonesia to join Pak.

The Korean 5th gen program is much further ahead than Azm. By the time Azm moves on to this stage in the next 5 to 10 years...Indonesia may want to join Pak if KFX falls through bcuz at that point there wouldn't be many options. For Pak it will be an additional partner for R&D(they have some KFX experience) and someone to share in the cost. IMO it's a win win. I'm not saying it will happen for sure...it's just a hope...the more collaboration with friendly countries the better

 

[TomCat]

Which is why I'm being a typical desi and wanting Indonesia to join Pak.

The Korean 5th gen program is much further ahead than Azm. By the time Azm moves on to this stage in the next 5 to 10 years...Indonesia may want to join Pak if KFX falls through bcuz at that point there wouldn't be many options. For Pak it will be an additional partner for R&D(they have some KFX experience) and someone to share in the cost. IMO it's a win win. I'm not saying it will happen for sure...it's just a hope...the more collaboration with friendly countries the better

@Indos Since Pakistan has almost everything of chinese origin and future seems to promise even more especially in terms of engine or avionics even on AZM, would indonesia in a scenerio where it has left KFX, join AZM ?

As for my reply to you cookie, AZM, i have no idea whether PAF/PAC is aiming to make it totally according to our needs and unadaptable for others just for using it domestically OR they will keep international market and potential customers in mind when designing and developing AZM. If case is the former, we won't see any partner, but if latter, we can have major partners, but that will create an atmosphere of hurdles due to different prospects and requirements and ultimately misunderstandings and delays.

 

[Cookie Monster]

@Indos Since Pakistan has almost everything of chinese origin and future seems to promise even more especially in terms of engine or avionics even on AZM, would indonesia in a scenerio where it has left KFX, join AZM ?

As for my reply to you cookie, AZM, i have no idea whether PAF/PAC is aiming to make it totally according to our needs and unadaptable for others just for using it domestically OR they will keep international market and potential customers in mind when designing and developing AZM. If case is the former, we won't see any partner, but if latter, we can have major partners, but that will create an atmosphere of hurdles due to different prospects and requirements and ultimately misunderstandings and delays.

IMO based on PAC/PAFs experience with JF17(with emphasis on a modular design)...Pak will also do the same with Azm NGF and improve on that experience. I remember reading somewhere that PAF intends to make Azm NGF with room for improvement as sixth gen(whatever it maybe) tech will start emerging by the time Azm is ready...which only confirms that modular approach.

Based on that above it's not far fetched to think of a 5th gen fighter along the lines of F35...not in terms of capability(idk where Azm stands in regards to that) but in terms of what Israel was able to do with it...as in have its own avionics. This kind of approach not only allows each country to tailor the fighter to its own needs but also allows for a country to safely export a fighter without risking exposing its own capabilities to other countries. So while Pak may not directly collaborate on Azm NGF itself with countries like Turkey, Indonesia, South Africa, etc...there's still a possibility to cooperate and jointly develop avionics and munitions. For example South Africa(having developed A Darter) and Ukraine(currently working on developing a supersonic ALCM) would be excellent choices to do a JV with and kickstart an indigenous effort to develop munitions locally for Azm NGF. There's already an effort(I think it was messiach who said it...can't remember) to locally develop an AESA radar for block 3 JF17. I think that's probably with Chinese help. If that effort is successful then Pak might also develop Azm radar locally as well. These efforts will give Pak total control over its own Azm fighter jets. If let's say Pak exports Azm fighter jets to Turkey...and they want to have western avionics or their own radar and weapons...and assuming Azm is modular...it wouldnt take a huge amount of money and effort to let them customize it according to their own needs.

I think Pak should do JVs with other countries on the parts that will sum up to capabilities for Azm rather than the Azm NGF itself. It will share the costs and risks all the same while still allowing Pak to develop Azm according to its own needs rather than trying to build something that fits the other party's needs as well(something that caused cost over runs in F35's case). At the same time that approach will also build domestic capability of Pak.

 

[Indos]

@Indos Since Pakistan has almost everything of chinese origin and future seems to promise even more especially in terms of engine or avionics even on AZM, would indonesia in a scenerio where it has left KFX, join AZM ?

As for my reply to you cookie, AZM, i have no idea whether PAF/PAC is aiming to make it totally according to our needs and unadaptable for others just for using it domestically OR they will keep international market and potential customers in mind when designing and developing AZM. If case is the former, we won't see any partner, but if latter, we can have major partners, but that will create an atmosphere of hurdles due to different prospects and requirements and ultimately misunderstandings and delays.

Actually it needs big shift in Indonesian leadership mind set if we want to use Chinese engine and avionics for our fighters jet. China has been perceived as the biggest threat since old days particularly after communist China have cozy relationship with Indonesian communist and ready to give weapon for 5 million Communist supporters in Indonesia that can lead to Indonesian civil war. Indonesia freeze its relationship with China since 1967 although both countries normalize the relationship again in 1990. The situation in SCS also become the other reason of why China is viewed as the threat for Indonesia. There is some kind of heated situation happening in Natuna sea between both countries ships during 2014. China doesnt show its aggressive move again after that incident. If China can restrain from making any aggressive move, Indonesia can start to trust China and maybe can be ally in the future. Who knows, but it really need some time for the trust to be built.

For the near future I see it will be difficult for Indonesia to have their fighter with Chinese engine and avionics. Particularly if the fighter will become our back bone. It is not a surprised if almost all of important asset in Indonesia military are either from the west or Russian. In short, Indonesia IMO will only join AZM program if the engine and avionics is not sourced from China (with the assumption that Indonesia is out from KFX program). This is the condition from now until 2030. After 2030 the situation might be different, particularly if the relation between Indonesia and China become closer and trust can be built between the two nations. Indonesia and Pakistan also will likely to double or even triple their economy after 2030 inshaAllah, thus financing the program seems to be easier to do at that time period.

From my point of view, in the near future, the cooperation between Indonesia and Pakistan in military aviation is more possible if both countries are willing to make their own jet trainer that can also have light attack role. The investment will be much cheaper and it will not be too much difficult to find engine supplier and the avionics can be sourced from both country industries since we dont have to have the best avionics for a trainer and light attack plane. The avionics that will be upgraded over time will give our electronics companies chance to develop their own producs and grow their capabilities. The jet should use stealth design so that both countries will have experience in this area that can be used later in designing real 5 generation fighter in the future. Our designer can also grow their experience and expertise by this program.

 

[TomCat]

Actually it needs big shift in Indonesian leadership mind set if we want to use Chinese engine and avionics for our fighters jet. China has been perceived as the biggest threat since old days particularly after communist China have cozy relationship with Indonesian communist and ready to give weapon for 5 million Communist supporters in Indonesia that can lead to Indonesian civil war. Indonesia freeze its relationship with China since 1967 although both countries normalize the relationship again in 1990. The situation in SCS also become the other reason of why China is viewed as the threat for Indonesia. There is some kind of heated situation happening in Natuna sea between both countries ships during 2014. China doesnt show its aggressive move again after that incident. If China can restrain from making any aggressive move, Indonesia can start to trust China and maybe can be ally in the future. Who knows, but it really need some time for the trust to be built.

For the near future I see it will be difficult for Indonesia to have their fighter with Chinese engine and avionics. Particularly if the fighter will become our back bone. It is not a surprised if almost all of important asset in Indonesia military are either from the west or Russian. In short, Indonesia IMO will only join AZM program if the engine and avionics is not sourced from China (with the assumption that Indonesia is out from KFX program). This is the condition from now until 2030. After 2030 the situation might be different, particularly if the relation between Indonesia and China become closer and trust can be built between the two nations. Indonesia and Pakistan also will likely to double or even triple their economy after 2030 inshaAllah, thus financing the program seems to be easier to do at that time period.

From my point of view, in the near future, the cooperation between Indonesia and Pakistan in military aviation is more possible if both countries are willing to make their own jet trainer that can also have light attack role. The investment will be much cheaper and it will not be too much difficult to find engine supplier and the avionics can be sourced from both country industries since we dont have to have the best avionics for a trainer and light attack plane. The avionics that will be upgraded over time will give our electronics companies chance to develop their own producs and grow their capabilities. The jet should use stealth design so that both countries will have experience in this area that can be used later in designing real 5 generation fighter in the future. Our designer can also grow their experience and expertise by this program.

I myself believe that in a half decade, Pakistan ‘MIGHT’ start a LIFT platform project even though we have Thunder B but a dedicated trainer for 5 and 5+ gen fighters since the transition from just 4.5 to 5 has many changes in cockpit itself apart from introduction of new techs.

 

[TomCat]

IMO based on PAC/PAFs experience with JF17(with emphasis on a modular design)...Pak will also do the same with Azm NGF and improve on that experience. I remember reading somewhere that PAF intends to make Azm NGF with room for improvement as sixth gen(whatever it maybe) tech will start emerging by the time Azm is ready...which only confirms that modular approach.

Based on that above it's not far fetched to think of a 5th gen fighter along the lines of F35...not in terms of capability(idk where Azm stands in regards to that) but in terms of what Israel was able to do with it...as in have its own avionics. This kind of approach not only allows each country to tailor the fighter to its own needs but also allows for a country to safely export a fighter without risking exposing its own capabilities to other countries. So while Pak may not directly collaborate on Azm NGF itself with countries like Turkey, Indonesia, South Africa, etc...there's still a possibility to cooperate and jointly develop avionics and munitions. For example South Africa(having developed A Darter) and Ukraine(currently working on developing a supersonic ALCM) would be excellent choices to do a JV with and kickstart an indigenous effort to develop munitions locally for Azm NGF. There's already an effort(I think it was messiach who said it...can't remember) to locally develop an AESA radar for block 3 JF17. I think that's probably with Chinese help. If that effort is successful then Pak might also develop Azm radar locally as well. These efforts will give Pak total control over its own Azm fighter jets. If let's say Pak exports Azm fighter jets to Turkey...and they want to have western avionics or their own radar and weapons...and assuming Azm is modular...it wouldnt take a huge amount of money and effort to let them customize it according to their own needs.

I think Pak should do JVs with other countries on the parts that will sum up to capabilities for Azm rather than the Azm NGF itself. It will share the costs and risks all the same while still allowing Pak to develop Azm according to its own needs rather than trying to build something that fits the other party's needs as well(something that caused cost over runs in F35's case). At the same time that approach will also build domestic capability of Pak.

I believe, AZM is not an ordinary project or a specific focus rather a whole set of R&D focus ranging from major and minor avionics, missiles, jet design, parts. I won’t be surprised if AZM is 80-90% indigenous including the weaponry. Like PM IK said yesterday, “Pakistan’s problem has always been short term planning”, i really appreciate some military officers for a mind far afield, thinking in long term keeping the short term requirements also satisfied. Avionics Production Factory already would be having chinese associations and help. Even if not, we have 10 years to implements successful projects. It took china 13-15 years to develop a deployable version of SD-10 according to data available on wiki. As for Supersonic ALCM, we can request china for help from their experience on CX-1, CM-400, C-802. Denel dynamics should also be considered with regards to A2A category as A-Darter was their success, take time of 6 years, we can develop something even better than that with their cooperation.

As for the 6th gen, Retd ACM Sohail Aman himself mentioned AZM to be fifth Gen plus and that is very plausible and already forseeable as even fifth gen is 20+ years old now. World is going ahead towards 6th Gen, by 2035 we might see at least 3 6th gen projects already flying in prototype phases, so we have to keep that in mind, make AZM as modular as possible giving room for even a design modification.