Nation hood and Muslim Ummah (Brotherhood) .... | World Defense

Nation hood and Muslim Ummah (Brotherhood) ....

I.R.A

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One of the questions that gets thrown at Muslims, especially Pakistani Muslims is Are you a Pakistani first? Or are you a Muslim first? ..... well no matter how much (being a Pakistani Muslim) I find this question to be obscure and ill designed with malicious intent to put me in difficult situation ....... it still demands answering, for people who genuinely have no idea about the whole idea of brotherhood. I have devoted and spared sometime .... honestly thinking how to counter this question and skip this situation where people value loyalty, faith, honesty, devotion, and hard work ..... in terms of how much patriotic I am, I can be Einstein of my times but if I don't pass the test of patriotism I am not good. Also the fact that I kept feeling insecure as if I would choose one I would lose the other. I am sure this thought comes across minds of many Pakistani Muslims and may be Indian Muslims as well ..... (I won't go into details of how this may pose different situations for both sets of Muslims). So ladies and gentlemen my insecurity as usual taught me something about this situation and how to tackle it.

I would start with a straight answer ......... nationality is my identity and brotherhood (being Muslim) is my faith. How these two should be related and interlinked? sincerely I don't understand, I don't find any link between the two, neither I find one dominant enough to refuse me opting the other. However, the only difference I find between the two is the ease with which I can change my faith and the difficulty I may face changing my nationality. Its like one is purely my own free will and the other is totally out of my hands and control. Yes anyone out of us billions humans can become a Muslim from anything or from a Muslim to anything, but can the same person at the same time become national of a totally new nation renouncing his old nation? Like one fine morning can I declare that from now onward I am Indian, Chinese or Brazilian and not Pakistani? So dear readers do you find any rationality behind asking this question to anyone, whether he is Christian Muslim Hindu first or He is a Martian first?

Nationhood may be a centuries old concept but it isn't a divine order. Its a human creation and invention, separating and dividing humans from each other and then focusing to turn them zombies (not all the ones who feed on judging patriotism of others). It is one the solid reasons for a first time nuclear world war, what it positive it has brought to the humans? I live in Pakistan have three times food and I feel distant from people of say Africa who faced the worst droughts, or say Yemenis or Syrians or people who live in the first world but still are homeless. Do I as Pakistani feel their pain, or does my being Pakistani make me feel their pain? No dear readers it doesn't, if it did ........ we may have saved many innocent humans. Its the age of nationhood and feeling insecure about your nation, hating other nationalities ...... I just got born into it, I have no mode available to me to change my origins, or ask free movement on the Earth, or go to any part of the world I like, without being hindered. I have to prove my identity before I go anywhere, even within the city I am living I may be asked anytime to prove my identity. So based on this suffocating conditions and era I am living won't it be reasonable for the original question to be modified and I may be asked instead

Am I Abottonian first? Or Am I am KPKian first? Or Am I Pakistani First? Or Am I Muslim first? ....... and interestingly the answer to this would be reverse of the questions asked ..... I am Muslim, Pakistani, from KPK living in Abbottabad.

Brotherhood or to be more specific Muslim Brotherhood is a divine concept, not intended to discriminate and form groups to distinguish yourself from others but to care and look after each other, to make the others living with you feel more secure and safe from yourself. And its natural, its not unique to Islam or Muslims only ..... its natural for humans, to associate to another group of humans. Indian Hindus feeling for Pakistani Hindus, a person from Amish community feeling for another Amish, even an Atheist feeling for another Atheist or the worst in today's times LGBT becoming rainbows for similar people. So what crime do I commit if I feel for any other ordinary Muslim living in any other part of the world? And why my being Pakistani has to stop me from it? Or what that others being Ugandan has got to do with it? Why should we both be judged for this? Why this crooked world wants me to ask idiot questions before I start helping anyone in distress? State itself is not a living entity Pakistani state can do whatever it wants to do with another state ...... but should those actions translate into humans fearing and hating other humans? Why can't we understand this simple thing that its the states that go to war these days and then it comes to humans who kill each other in those wars.

But in any case why is it necessary to mix two different things to judge my loyalty, my conduct and my intentions? If I am Muslim who understands the message of Quran believe me you won't wish to know my nationality ...... it should be enough for you as a Non Muslim that I am Muslim and you are safe in my presence.


@Khafee @Indus Falcon @H!thchiker @Hellhound @Tps77
 

The Sandman

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Am I Abottonian first? Or Am I am KPKian first? Or Am I Pakistani First? Or Am I Muslim first? ....... and interestingly the answer to this would be reverse of the questions asked ..... I am Muslim, Pakistani, from KPK living in Abbottabad.
It should be like this Human>Pakistani>Muslim>Punjabi>Lahori no? would make things much easier like that imo.
it should be enough for you as a Non Muslim that I am Muslim and you are safe in my presence.
Only if it was that much easy in real life...
 

I.R.A

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It should be like this Human>Pakistani>Muslim>Punjabi>Lahori no? would make things much easier like that imo.
We are humans by birth ........... but what really makes us to act as humans? If its okay with you and others I will say lets quantify and value the influences that make us act as humans .........

My being human ....... by birth yes but what if I was left in wild, would I still be acting as an human? Feral children?

Pakistani ........ at max its my identity ........... but does this identity on its own contribute anything to my character building? Be honest.

Muslim ....... got lucky to be born Muslim ...... but would it make any difference if I remain an ignorant Muslim?

Punjabi and Lahori well again no problem with identifying yourself to those groups but what value do they bring to your character building?


Only if it was that much easy in real life...
Its really easy if we opt to not remain Muslim for the name's sake .....and.... really search to become Muslims for the action's sake.
 

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It is a muslim first and nationality comes next. Islam is not a religion its a way of life. We all should share the brotherhood regardless of race or ethnicity and we should maintain the sense of brotherhood regardless of our differences. Being a Muslim has nothing to do with patriotism. We all love where we come from however, that should not be a barrier to the feeling for one another, caring for one another and loving one another. On another hand that must not mean that we go about helping others and neglect our own issues. We should alwayes starts where we are, address our shortcoming within our circle and we can from there extend a hand to others if needed. The idea of I am an Arab first, a Pakistani first and then Muslim was the idea that the prophet came to abolish, the jahiliyah that oh im from this and that tribe/country I am better than him/her. You could be better than us in wealth and status but never in morality and decency. That is why holding to the rope of Allah SWT is the idea that make muslim stick together in health and sickness.
 

I.R.A

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It is a muslim first and nationality comes next. Islam is not a religion its a way of life. We all should share the brotherhood regardless of race or ethnicity and we should maintain the sense of brotherhood regardless of our differences. Being a Muslim has nothing to do with patriotism. We all love where we come from however, that should not be a barrier to the feeling for one another, caring for one another and loving one another. On another hand that must not mean that we go about helping others and neglect our own issues. We should alwayes starts where we are, address our shortcoming within our circle and we can from there extend a hand to others if needed. The idea of I am an Arab first, a Pakistani first and then Muslim was the idea that the prophet came to abolish, the jahiliyah that oh im from this and that tribe/country I am better than him/her. You could be better than us in wealth and status but never in morality and decency. That is why holding to the rope of Allah SWT is the idea that make muslim stick together in health and sickness.
For us Muslims it is easy to understand why we say Muslim first ...... because we are clear (in most of the cases) that there is no inter link between the two ........ it is not as if I have to sacrifice one for opting the other (except may be for some fascist states). The whole idea stems from that being Muslim makes me more responsible towards not Muslims only but the humanity.

And as you mentioned Arabs before Islam ........ its a good example that Muslim brotherhood strengthened their nation as well, before they were groups and tribes not worthy of an enemy for Persians and Romans ......... after Islam we know the history what happened.
 

The Sandman

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And as you mentioned Arabs before Islam ........ its a good example that Muslim brotherhood strengthened their nation as well, before they were groups and tribes not worthy of an enemy for Persians and Romans ......... after Islam we know the history what happened.
What you guys are saying is right Islam can be a good binding force but i just want to add a small point (i will talk about Pakistan only here) see when Prophet was alive there was only 1 Islam today there are dozens and dozens of sects with followers in millions declaring each other kafir now me u and a few other individuals don't believe in sects but prob is we're "few" and than we've minorities that i will put bluntly are shrinking that's why i keep my country above everything else my religion my believes are mine it's between me and Allah and so is with everyone else with these so many sects without a doubt Muslims are divided and can create further problems for a country's stability and unity.

There came a division after just a few years of passing of Prophet today there are nation states concept of Ummah is nowhere to be seen. In Medina's constitution prophet called even non-Muslims Ummah.

So that's why i consider all Pakistanis equal doesn't matter their religion cast their province or anything like that.
 

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What you guys are saying is right Islam can be a good binding force but i just want to add a small point (i will talk about Pakistan only here) see when Prophet was alive there was only 1 Islam today there are dozens and dozens of sects with followers in millions declaring each other kafir now me u and a few other individuals don't believe in sects but prob is we're "few" and than we've minorities that i will put bluntly are shrinking that's why i keep my country above everything else my religion my believes are mine it's between me and Allah and so is with everyone else with these so many sects without a doubt Muslims are divided and can create further problems for a country's stability and unity.
I don't know if you have read my (somewhat strange and unorthodox comments), anyhow let me reiterate here

  • Division and sects in any form are not Islam, Quran treats division and sects as a grave crime like Shirk ..... worthy of punishment by the ALL MIGHTY HIMSELF that's why Quran focused too much on prohibition of sects and division. And that's why Quran advises Messenger Peace be upon him not to worry about people who created sects, leave them to ALLAH.

  • We Muslims of today have this problem of considering men written history as holy and treating that history as part of our faith. If you study closely all these sects have their roots in history and men collected and created traditions ........ none of these sects can ever justify their existence when asked in light of Quran. So what needs to be done is revisiting a lot of fairy tales in light of Quran and treating Quran as full and final authority. It is the Quran that gives respect to the humans without considering their color, creed or nation.

  • If you ask me the reason for Muslims descending into chaos and living in hell like conditions is their not respecting Quran's message and distancing themselves from Quran ......... and interestingly that too when Quran warns them of the consequences of their such actions. Visionaries and leaders were created as long as we followed Quran only, sects, division, killing innocents, mistreatment of minorities and women started when we started believing in fairy tales too much.


There came a division after just a few years of passing of Prophet today there are nation states concept of Ummah is nowhere to be seen. In Medina's constitution prophet called even non-Muslims Ummah.
That is an historical blunder ............ and a misconception.

So that's why i consider all Pakistanis equal doesn't matter their religion cast their province or anything like that.
As I said the mistreatment of other humans based on their religion, color, caste doesn't find any room in Quran. Look closely for the justifications given and it would make sense.
 

The Sandman

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  • Division and sects in any form are not Islam, Quran treats division and sects as a grave crime like Shirk ..... worthy of punishment by the ALL MIGHTY HIMSELF that's why Quran focused too much on prohibition of sects and division. And that's why Quran advises Messenger Peace be upon him not to worry about people who created sects, leave them to ALLAH.

  • We Muslims of today have this problem of considering men written history as holy and treating that history as part of our faith. If you study closely all these sects have their roots in history and men collected and created traditions ........ none of these sects can ever justify their existence when asked in light of Quran. So what needs to be done is revisiting a lot of fairy tales in light of Quran and treating Quran as full and final authority. It is the Quran that gives respect to the humans without considering their color, creed or nation.

  • If you ask me the reason for Muslims descending into chaos and living in hell like conditions is their not respecting Quran's message and distancing themselves from Quran ......... and interestingly that too when Quran warns them of the consequences of their such actions. Visionaries and leaders were created as long as we followed Quran only, sects, division, killing innocents, mistreatment of minorities and women started when we started believing in fairy tales too much.
I can completely understand to where you're pointing *remembers the horrors and fatwa's of PDF*
and i am in agreement with you not respecting Quran is a major major problem in today's Muslims.

That is an historical blunder ............ and a misconception.
I don't know what are you referring to as blunder but for misconception i think you're talking about Ummah's thing i said? i had an awesome link explaining a lot of stuff about Medina's constitution can't find it atm :/
 

I.R.A

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I don't know what are you referring to as blunder but for misconception i think you're talking about Ummah's thing i said? i had an awesome link explaining a lot of stuff about Medina's constitution can't find it atm :/

I am not talking about Medina's constitution ......... why would we Muslims of today study that? It makes us insecure about our faith ...... I am talking about the comment that division happened right after few years of Messenger Peace be upon him departed this world. That is a blatant lie being preached and fed ..........
 

The Sandman

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I am not talking about Medina's constitution ......... why would we Muslims of today study that? It makes us insecure about our faith ...... I am talking about the comment that division happened right after few years of Messenger Peace be upon him departed this world. That is a blatant lie being preached and fed ..........
Well i maybe wrong but didn't fight started in like 650'ish? anyway rather not go into that detail can create problems.
why would we Muslims of today study that? It makes us insecure about our faith
Well that would've gotten me a fatwa lol
but tbh it contains loads of good things for all the people who lived in Medina at that time regardless of their religion so i try to always pick up good things.
 

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Well i maybe wrong but didn't fight started in like 650'ish? anyway rather not go into that detail can create problems.
No ....... why you feel so insecure discussing history? You can convey your thoughts with all the civility and I am sure management here is supportive of any discussion as long as its not resulting in insults to others @Khafee ?


Well that would've gotten me a fatwa lol
but tbh it contains loads of good things for all the people who lived in Medina at that time regardless of their religion so i try to always pick up good things.

Yes we need fatwas to understand ........ killing which innocent human is halal and which one is haram ....... seriously that is our moral state.

I have lived in Karachi for sometime, and I had a Hindu batch mate, once we were on a picnic trip that included night stay at a farm house, we were all young males having masti and playing football cricket etc. so after sometime we took a break, the water is being served to each other, it so happened that I was standing next to the Hindu batch mate .......... when my turn came I handed the glass to him first and he looked at me in shock as if I had committed some blasphemy or some sin ........ he wasn't expecting that at all. And later at some point he converted to Islam (I had nothing to do with that ...... and how I came to know about his conversion is also an interesting story).
 

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One of the questions that gets thrown at Muslims, especially Pakistani Muslims is Are you a Pakistani first? Or are you a Muslim first? ..... well no matter how much (being a Pakistani Muslim) I find this question to be obscure and ill designed with malicious intent to put me in difficult situation ....... it still demands answering, for people who genuinely have no idea about the whole idea of brotherhood. I have devoted and spared sometime .... honestly thinking how to counter this question and skip this situation where people value loyalty, faith, honesty, devotion, and hard work ..... in terms of how much patriotic I am, I can be Einstein of my times but if I don't pass the test of patriotism I am not good. Also the fact that I kept feeling insecure as if I would choose one I would lose the other. I am sure this thought comes across minds of many Pakistani Muslims and may be Indian Muslims as well ..... (I won't go into details of how this may pose different situations for both sets of Muslims). So ladies and gentlemen my insecurity as usual taught me something about this situation and how to tackle it.

I would start with a straight answer ......... nationality is my identity and brotherhood (being Muslim) is my faith. How these two should be related and interlinked? sincerely I don't understand, I don't find any link between the two, neither I find one dominant enough to refuse me opting the other. However, the only difference I find between the two is the ease with which I can change my faith and the difficulty I may face changing my nationality. Its like one is purely my own free will and the other is totally out of my hands and control. Yes anyone out of us billions humans can become a Muslim from anything or from a Muslim to anything, but can the same person at the same time become national of a totally new nation renouncing his old nation? Like one fine morning can I declare that from now onward I am Indian, Chinese or Brazilian and not Pakistani? So dear readers do you find any rationality behind asking this question to anyone, whether he is Christian Muslim Hindu first or He is a Martian first?

Nationhood may be a centuries old concept but it isn't a divine order. Its a human creation and invention, separating and dividing humans from each other and then focusing to turn them zombies (not all the ones who feed on judging patriotism of others). It is one the solid reasons for a first time nuclear world war, what it positive it has brought to the humans? I live in Pakistan have three times food and I feel distant from people of say Africa who faced the worst droughts, or say Yemenis or Syrians or people who live in the first world but still are homeless. Do I as Pakistani feel their pain, or does my being Pakistani make me feel their pain? No dear readers it doesn't, if it did ........ we may have saved many innocent humans. Its the age of nationhood and feeling insecure about your nation, hating other nationalities ...... I just got born into it, I have no mode available to me to change my origins, or ask free movement on the Earth, or go to any part of the world I like, without being hindered. I have to prove my identity before I go anywhere, even within the city I am living I may be asked anytime to prove my identity. So based on this suffocating conditions and era I am living won't it be reasonable for the original question to be modified and I may be asked instead

Am I Abottonian first? Or Am I am KPKian first? Or Am I Pakistani First? Or Am I Muslim first? ....... and interestingly the answer to this would be reverse of the questions asked ..... I am Muslim, Pakistani, from KPK living in Abbottabad.

Brotherhood or to be more specific Muslim Brotherhood is a divine concept, not intended to discriminate and form groups to distinguish yourself from others but to care and look after each other, to make the others living with you feel more secure and safe from yourself. And its natural, its not unique to Islam or Muslims only ..... its natural for humans, to associate to another group of humans. Indian Hindus feeling for Pakistani Hindus, a person from Amish community feeling for another Amish, even an Atheist feeling for another Atheist or the worst in today's times LGBT becoming rainbows for similar people. So what crime do I commit if I feel for any other ordinary Muslim living in any other part of the world? And why my being Pakistani has to stop me from it? Or what that others being Ugandan has got to do with it? Why should we both be judged for this? Why this crooked world wants me to ask idiot questions before I start helping anyone in distress? State itself is not a living entity Pakistani state can do whatever it wants to do with another state ...... but should those actions translate into humans fearing and hating other humans? Why can't we understand this simple thing that its the states that go to war these days and then it comes to humans who kill each other in those wars.

But in any case why is it necessary to mix two different things to judge my loyalty, my conduct and my intentions? If I am Muslim who understands the message of Quran believe me you won't wish to know my nationality ...... it should be enough for you as a Non Muslim that I am Muslim and you are safe in my presence.


@Khafee @Indus Falcon @H!thchiker @Hellhound @Tps77
Muslim and being a Pakistani is not something mutually exclusive.What i am extracting in your article is "A dilemma to answer a Non-Muslim whether Muslim or being Pakistani first". This is usually pop up in the context of fighting and unrest for which Islam has prescribed answers..This question should put Muslims in west more in limbo then somebody living among majority of Muslims..Any how faith is what comes first..but no where it contradicts with being Pakistani..
PS:Just read your story about Hindu friend ...Initially my flat mate in KSA was a hindu from Pakistan and my friend used to worked in KPMG together..In ramadan he used to make Aftar for me and sometime in sahoor when i being late used to get me up...Once i was eating with him and one of my friend said "How can you eat with him and i had no answer of how to respond him"...This same hindu used to taunt me of not praying regularly though remained committed to his faith..Always told me to pray for his family when i used to go for Umrah.later on he moved to dubai..
 

I.R.A

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Muslims and being a Pakistani is not something mutually exclusive.What i am extracting in your article is "A dilemma to answer a Non-Muslim whether Muslim or being Pakistani first". This is usually pop up in the context of fighting and unrest for which Islam has prescribed answers..This question should put Muslims in west more in limbo then somebody living among majority of Muslims..Any how faith is what comes first..but no where it contradicts with being Pakistani..
This question is not limited to Muslims living in non Muslim states ........ honestly some (most) of those people are civilised enough not to go into that debate ....... however, this question is picking up pace in Pakistan ....... any fake liberal can put you to this test. It all started with a hollow slogan of "Pakistan first" with selling Pakistan, Pakistanis and its interests .......... and still we needed clerics' attestation in form of fatwa to declare that suicide bombing is haram ...... whereas it is as clear as daylight that killing any innocent human is a grave sin.

PS:Just read your story about Hindu friend ...Initially my flat mate in KSA was a hindu from Pakistan and my friend used to worked in KPMG together..In ramadan he used to make Aftar for me and sometime in sahoor when i being late used to get me up...Once i was eating with him and one of my friend said "How can you eat with him and i had no answer of how to respond him"...This same hindu used to taunt me of not praying regularly though remained committed to his faith...later on he moved to dubai..

You could have told your friend he has two eyes, two ears, one nose, two legs, two feet ......... so I don't find my Hindu friend to be an alien .... plus he is not eating pork sitting with me, Quran mentions what you can eat when a non Muslim offers you to sit with him at dining table, it doesn't say don't eat with them. This I guess is subcontinent thing .......... choot chaaat pavitar etc
 

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This question is not limited to Muslims living in non Muslim states ........ honestly some (most) of those people are civilised enough not to go into that debate ....... however, this question is picking up pace in Pakistan ....... any fake liberal can put you to this test. It all started with a hollow slogan of "Pakistan first" with selling Pakistan, Pakistanis and its interests .......... and still we needed clerics' attestation in form of fatwa to declare that suicide bombing is haram ...... whereas it is as clear as daylight that killing any innocent human is a grave sin.




You could have told your friend he has two eyes, two ears, one nose, two legs, two feet ......... so I don't find my Hindu friend to be an alien .... plus he is not eating pork sitting with me, Quran mentions what you can eat when a non Muslim offers you to sit with him at dining table, it doesn't say don't eat with them. This I guess is subcontinent thing .......... choot chaaat pavitar etc
Nothing is pure in Pakistan neither these Liberals nor the self proclaimed Islamist with each is extremest in his own views.I have always of the opinion that Ulema "Choose to remain silent or fail to condemn the wrongdoing" are denying the basic Essene of Islam "to stand against evil"..
Not that i don't had an answer, i was astonished of him being much educated and senior to me while having such discourse.
 
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