Nation hood and Muslim Ummah (Brotherhood) ....

[The Sandman]

No ....... why you feel so insecure discussing history? You can convey your thoughts with all the civility and I am sure management here is supportive of any discussion as long as its not resulting in insults to others @Khafee ?

I just don't want to attract unnecessary problems these discussions we know lead to where.

Yes we need fatwas to understand ........ killing which innocent human is halal and which one is haram ....... seriously that is our moral state.

I have lived in Karachi for sometime, and I had a Hindu batch mate, once we were on a picnic trip that included night stay at a farm house, we were all young males having masti and playing football cricket etc. so after sometime we took a break, the water is being served to each other, it so happened that I was standing next to the Hindu batch mate .......... when my turn came I handed the glass to him first and he looked at me in shock as if I had committed some blasphemy or some sin ........ he wasn't expecting that at all. And later at some point he converted to Islam (I had nothing to do with that ...... and how I came to know about his conversion is also an interesting story).

Islam preaches love and care but people have made it way too complicated and extremist.

Quran mentions what you can eat when a non Muslim offers you to sit with him at dining table, it doesn't say don't eat with them. This I guess is subcontinent thing .......... choot chaaat pavitar etc

I was always told ke it's haram to eat with non Muslims esp if they're not "people of book".

 

[Mage]

Just thinking, if you are Muslim first and then Pakistani then would you not want Pakistan to be run by sharia law? Since that's what Islam demands. Islam......is it just your faith or is it your identity? Do you think religion is your personal matter or is it a must for everyone in the nation?

 

[Nilgiri]

Is it necessary to rank identities? I don't get why they have to be mutually exclusive things...to me they are ingredients of a soup....and everyone has an opinion on the flavour .

I was always told ke it's haram to eat with non Muslims esp if they're not "people of book".

That's interesting I did not know. I have one good (very observant to Islam) Pakistani friend that broke bread with rest of us (of all manner of description from Atheist, Agnostic, Hindu, non practicing christian, non practiciting muslim, jew, semi practicing ppl etc) all the time in college, he only cared about halal/haram for his personal diet...and he went full vegetarian/pescetarian when eating out because he had concerns about the halal meat actually being halal (like he only would get it from certified halal butcher for his consumption and he trusted a few muslim owned eateries too). He never raised issue about what others were eating sitting next to him. I think it spoke a lot about his good character personally...and it adds layer of resilience+wisdom about average joe muslim ppl can be like (and pakistanis too) for the non-muslim ppl that interacted with him. He always answered every question about Islam patiently and no ego complex...just this is how and why we do things etc.

I certainly hope its how its going in most cases....rather than everyone just sheltering and totally in-grouping.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Is it necessary to rank identities? I don't get why they have to be mutually exclusive things...to me they are ingredients of a soup....and everyone has an opinion on the flavour .



That's interesting I did not know. I have one good (very observant to Islam) Pakistani friend that broke bread with rest of us (of all manner of description from Atheist, Agnostic, Hindu, non practicing christian, non practiciting muslim, jew, semi practicing ppl etc) all the time in college, he only cared about halal/haram for his personal diet...and he went full vegetarian/pescetarian when eating out because he had concerns about the halal meat actually being halal (like he only would get it from certified halal butcher for his consumption and he trusted a few muslim owned eateries too). He never raised issue about what others were eating sitting next to him. I think it spoke a lot about his good character personally...and it adds layer of resilience+wisdom about average joe muslim ppl can be like (and pakistanis too) for the non-muslim ppl that interacted with him. He always answered every question about Islam patiently and no ego complex...just this is how and why we do things etc.

I certainly hope its how its going in most cases....rather than everyone just sheltering and totally in-grouping.

Totally agree. None of my Muslim friends had problems eating with us, though the more orthodox were picky about their meat being halal, and preferred vegetarian to anything suspicious or not definitely certified. On the contrary, in one university, a youngster was very bothered about his meat not being 'jhatka'; even today, most people in orthodox corners of the country demand that; in Uttaranchal is perhaps the best example, although there are a number of Sikhs who are particular too.

In Calcutta, of course, where there was a lot of beef being eaten, as Western steaks, or as Indian curries and fries, things were far more relaxed and permissive, although the orthodox of each persuasion would have nothing to do with either steaks or bangers and mash. And everybody ate at Nizam's; it would not have occurred to anyone to question what was being served there, and they would make no mistakes about what to serve whom.

 

[Mage]

Is it necessary to rank identities? I don't get why they have to be mutually exclusive things...to me they are ingredients of a soup....and everyone has an opinion on the flavour .

My point is if Religion dictates every aspect of one's life then he would want the country to be run the way that religion wants. For a Muslim that would be like wanting Sharia law in his country. Now it doesn't matter if only few people in a country are that way. But if majority wants it then it will make significant change in how the country is run. So, It is necessary to understand whether to have religion as a personal choice or to make it national identity.

Be logical. If Islam is first and the most important thing for people, then why wouldn't people want Islamic laws to be enforced?
However if it's your personal choice then you probably would perform your prayers and be done with it. Allowing the country to be run the way its best for it.

All the religions have been politicized by now. A huge number of people have been brainwashed into thinking that religious way of governing a country serves the best for people. Speak against it and you will face death threats. Is this good for a country? Any country?

 

[The Sandman]

That's interesting I did not know. I have one good (very observant to Islam) Pakistani friend that broke bread with rest of us (of all manner of description from Atheist, Agnostic, Hindu, non practicing christian, non practiciting muslim, jew, semi practicing ppl etc) all the time in college, he only cared about halal/haram for his personal diet...and he went full vegetarian/pescetarian when eating out because he had concerns about the halal meat actually being halal (like he only would get it from certified halal butcher for his consumption and he trusted a few muslim owned eateries too). He never raised issue about what others were eating sitting next to him. I think it spoke a lot about his good character personally...and it adds layer of resilience+wisdom about average joe muslim ppl can be like (and pakistanis too) for the non-muslim ppl that interacted with him. He always answered every question about Islam patiently and no ego complex...just this is how and why we do things etc.

Ah thanks for the share!

 

[I.R.A]

Just thinking, if you are Muslim first and then Pakistani then would you not want Pakistan to be run by sharia law?

Sharia law is another widely propagated misunderstood bogey ..... born out of ignorance of Muslims themselves. Lack of understanding Quran's real message and sticking to centuries old distorted misinterpretations has done a lot of damage and has spread widespread misunderstanding of Quran, Islam and Muslims.

What we Muslims lacked is understanding that Quran cannot be translated to any other language, it can only be paraphrased and its meanings have to be taken exactly the same as they were taken by people who were present when Quran was being revealed.

For us Muslims as the time passes and the human brain keeps developing and evolving the real message of Quran gets discovered and proven.

In any society that is following Quran, laws are to be driven based on immutable divine guidance given in Quran. In today's world a Quranic society is an utopia ......... Muslim role is missing. To give you a hint of a Muslim role ..... a Muslim is someone who is ordered to defend non Muslims and fight for their freedom if he finds that those non Muslims are defenseless who are being oppressed and mistreated. Now apply this basic role on a full scale Islamic society with proper army and resources ..... and you will see that Islamic society and Muslims were liberators of oppressed humans ......... the exact role played by the earlier Muslims, the Messenger Peace be upon him, His companions and the people who followed them.

Since that's what Islam demands. Islam......

Islam only demands ......... that humans be free and just in their conduct, nobody should be oppressed and influenced, he / she should be free enough to seek knowledge, education and think over the whole creation ........ think, research and then be free enough to make a decision whether he / she submits to the creator and follows the divine guidance provided by HIM.

There is a difference between what Muslims wish and demand and what Islam demands.

.is it just your faith or is it your identity? Do you think religion is your personal matter or is it a must for everyone in the nation?

As I debated that personally I don't find any link between the two ..... its an obscure question ...... but still

What if my faith requires me to defend not only mine but any non Muslim's identity that he / she is sharing with me, or any other weak defenseless nation and its people identity? What should be superior my faith or my identity then? What should come first?

I have mentioned in para above what Islam actually demands ....... freedom for humanity so that they are able to research and make informed choices ....... even suppose after studying the creation, knowing that a Creator exists, a person opts to refuse HIS existence, refuses to accept HIS guidance, refuses to submit before HIM ....... there is no compulsion ......... nobody can force that person ... forceful submission and acceptance for the sake of it out of fear ..... is null, void and not valid.

 

[Mage]

What we Muslims lacked is understanding that Quran cannot be translated to any other language, it can only be paraphrased and its meanings have to be taken exactly the same as they were taken by people who were present when Quran was being revealed.

Which basically means that Quran was only for the people who were present back then. Making it outdated for todays environment?

its meanings have to be taken exactly the same as they were taken by people who were present when Quran was being revealed.

This is the root cause of all problems. People somehow think Quran is the only way....but sadly they can't interpret it. Not even the Mullahs can. Two mullahs will explain the same verse in Quran different way. ISIS will describe it in a way to make their crimes holy. A Saudi Mufti will say one thing, an Iranian ayatollah will say another thing. The Imam of the mosque you attend will say one thing, the Imam of another mosque in the same city will say it differently.

Even when Quran was being revealed, it was taken differently by different people. There are differences in how the Sahabas took it. The sahabas weren't always in good terms with each other. And even their interpretation differed from each other. Hazrat Ali(Ra) and Muawiah surely didn't took follow the Quran the same way.
Is their one single interpretation for all the verses in Quran that is accepted by all? I am not an anti-Muslim or Islamophobe in any way. Sorry if I sound like one. I am just frustrated at how Islam is always used as a political tool which basically creates division in todays world. Islam was meant to unite people.

Islam only demands ......... that humans be free and just in their conduct

Another problem is ambiguity. What is free? What is just? A lady is allowed to walk naked, right? No? Too bad. What does it mean to be free? What can you do and what can you not? One says it is alright to stone someone to death because of committing adultery because adultery is bad and stoninig is an appropriate punishment for it according to religion. So is this stoning a just act?

I have mentioned in para above what Islam actually demands ....... freedom for humanity so that they are able to research and make informed choices ....... even suppose after studying the creation, knowing that a Creator exists, a person opts to refuse HIS existence, refuses to accept HIS guidance, refuses to submit before HIM ....... there is no compulsion ......... nobody can force that person ... forceful submission and acceptance for the sake of it out of fear ..... is null, void and not valid.

Well according to Ummah concept every Muslim country should be one single nation. And yet there are like 50 Muslim majority countries. I wonder what does Islam says about nationalism and national identity. Because your identity should be that you are a Muslim. It worked for some time. Arabs, Assyrians, Berbers, Egyptians mixed and now are almost identical. With the same language very similar culture....I think they could work as a single nation if somehow they get united. Iran, Pakistan came close to it....now their language is written in Arabic alphabets. And a few Pakistanis like to trace back their genes back to Arabs from time to time. Our people(Bangladesh,) have this slave mentality. Islam is first. Islam is greater than the nation. Hasina is a kuffar, kick her out. Whenever they see Arabic written somewhere they think it is holy.(They don't even know what's written. It could be some dirty slang, but who cares, Arabic is holy). And I have seen Pakistanis in PDF claiming Urdu to be Islamic language.....(WTH is this???) I am like why people need to bring Islam to justify something? This is what I question. The people who does that surely values their religion more important than their national identity. Otherwise why would a Bengali Muslim consider something random written in Arabic as holy? Or why would a Pakistani consider Urdu to be an Islamic language and think Bengalis were traitors because they preferred Bengali?

 

[I.R.A]

I have read your post more than once, just to make sure I understand where you are coming from, let me know if I am wrong.

The problem you face or the confusion that surrounds you is nothing new, there are lots of Pakistanis and others who were born Muslims but now they are turning Atheists, I don't blame none of them, actually they don't get someone who could answer their questions and help them remove the confusion they face.

In almost all of these cases people get confused by the distorted Islamic history, interpretations of Quran done by people centuries after passing of Messenger Peace be upon him and traditions (Ahadeeth) associated with Messenger Muhammad Peace be upon him. And interestingly all of them are shy to question the history and traditions being fed to them ....... they are under the impression that distorted history and created traditions are necessary part of their faith and belief ........ questioning these historical accounts and traditions is a blasphemy, sin and heading towards exiting Islam........ It takes a lot of convincing, argumentation and reasoning to let such people know that Quran is a divine message, anything outside Quran is man written. Quran is supreme over all other, and the toughest thing that people fail to accept and understand is that Quran and Quran only is interpretation of Quran, you cannot understand Quran based on your preconceived beliefs and ideas ..... the ideas and beliefs that were fed to you by your parents, imam, qari, relatives, teachers and society .............. Most of the Muslims don't read Quran from perspective of understanding it but for recitation only, the motive is to move the ranking in getting the highest reward in life hereafter.

What is expected of people who think the best use of Quran is for taking oaths, marriage ceremonies, for exorcism, as a necklet, something to hang inside cars / vehicles for safety and so on .... the list is long. To none of them it ever dawned that aerial bombardment concept was given in Quran some 14 centuries ago, that embryology and evolution has been explained in Quran some 14 centuries ago, that working of sun, moon, Earth and universe has been hinted upon in Quran some 14 centuries ago, Earth and its atmosphere was explained and hinted in Quran some 14 centuries ago ........ all we could do is look for stoning, justifications for killing others, 72 virgins, declaring others infidel, how to justify existence of our sect etc etc etc etc and etc.

The confusion starts when you read a passage and a verse from Quran and look at work done by likes of Tabri, to explain it to you what it means. We don't read further and try getting the answer in another verse mentioned in another Chapter (Surah) ......... we don't make notes, we just keep reading Quran like parrots without understanding ........... only looking to get our ticket booked for heaven ......

Which basically means that Quran was only for the people who were present back then. Making it outdated for todays environment?

Please read this verse, I have quoted this verse multiple times in my real life and on forums ........... its a simple verse, people read it and move without paying attention to a very odd and unique thing mentioned in there ......

"Whomever God wishes to guide, He renders his chest receptive to Islam, and whomever He wishes to send astray, He renders his chest tight and constricted as if he is ascending into the sky." 6:125

Did you get it?

Here

At the time of the revelation of the Quran in the 7th century, no one would have known that ascending high in the sky would cause constriction and pain in the chest, simply because it was way before the age of air flight (ascending in the sky).

Its only very recent that we know this .......... now you tell me how an ordinary person like say Tabri would have known this? How his centuries old interpretation is valid today .........

Do you still think Quran was for that time only and it doesn't hold knowledge that would be better understood today in light of all the scientific discoveries, knowledge and inventions?

This is the root cause of all problems. People somehow think Quran is the only way....but sadly they can't interpret it. Not even the Mullahs can. Two mullahs will explain the same verse in Quran different way. ISIS will describe it in a way to make their crimes holy. A Saudi Mufti will say one thing, an Iranian ayatollah will say another thing. The Imam of the mosque you attend will say one thing, the Imam of another mosque in the same city will say it differently.

The scholars mentioned in Quran are the ones who research on creation, God's creation of universe, HIS creation of life ...... Mullahs or our ordinary scholars with their knowledge based on Tabri's fairytales and myths are not an authority at all.

You should read about what Quran has to say regarding Haman (the clergy) ........ he has been mentioned with the people who are cursed and punished ...........

Quran has on multiple occasions warned about the sectarianism and division. Its not healthy and its not something that would go unpunished in life hereafter.

Read Quran yourself as you would read any other law book or a science journal ..... pay attention to each and every detail, make notes and find answers within Quran.

I am very clear on concepts like blood money, Qisas, stoning, apostasy etc ..... and believe me what we Muslims practice in general is nowhere near Quran.

Even when Quran was being revealed, it was taken differently by different people. There are differences in how the Sahabas took it. The sahabas weren't always in good terms with each other. And even their interpretation differed from each other. Hazrat Ali(Ra) and Muawiah surely didn't took follow the Quran the same way.

You have been mislead by the people who created the fairytales, who invented Islamic history and who created traditions and associated them with Muhammad Peace be upon him. The Islamic history and role of companions as mentioned in these fairytales is nowhere near Quran neither it makes any sense nor its consistent. Its hectic, senseless ........ for making these look authentic they associated with Messenger, His companions .......... and all these inventions were done by Persians ..........

Is their one single interpretation for all the verses in Quran that is accepted by all? I am not an anti-Muslim or Islamophobe in any way. Sorry if I sound like one. I am just frustrated at how Islam is always used as a political tool which basically creates division in todays world. Islam was meant to unite people.

Quran itself ........... and nothing outside Quran. When I said that Quran cannot be translated and has to be taken in exact meanings as was taken at the time of its revelation ......... it was to highlight the need to reject all the work of interpretation done by Non Arabs, Arabs should have been the ones paraphrasing Quran in different languages ........ its not an easy task as Arabic is a rich language. However there are non Arabs who learnt Arabic just for this purpose to understand Quran better.

Another problem is ambiguity. What is free? What is just? A lady is allowed to walk naked, right? No? Too bad. What does it mean to be free? What can you do and what can you not? One says it is alright to stone someone to death because of committing adultery because adultery is bad and stoninig is an appropriate punishment for it according to religion. So is this stoning a just act?

Stoning to death is not in Quran. Freedom as mentioned in Quran is state taking care of its citizens so that they are not burdened with worrying about their survival, they have ample time to research on this universe, discover and benefit humanity.

The freedom you are mentioning is not the real freedom ......... its just the personal wishes and desires. Being wishing to be naked and committing adultery are not acts that benefit humanity in progressing and evolving.

Well according to Ummah concept every Muslim country should be one single nation. And yet there are like 50 Muslim majority countries. I wonder what does Islam says about nationalism and national identity. Because your identity should be that you are a Muslim. It worked for some time. Arabs, Assyrians, Berbers, Egyptians mixed and now are almost identical. With the same language very similar culture....I think they could work as a single nation if somehow they get united. Iran, Pakistan came close to it....now their language is written in Arabic alphabets. And a few Pakistanis like to trace back their genes back to Arabs from time to time. Our people(Bangladesh,) have this slave mentality. Islam is first. Islam is greater than the nation. Hasina is a kuffar, kick her out. Whenever they see Arabic written somewhere they think it is holy.(They don't even know what's written. It could be some dirty slang, but who cares, Arabic is holy). And I have seen Pakistanis in PDF claiming Urdu to be Islamic language.....(WTH is this???) I am like why people need to bring Islam to justify something? This is what I question. The people who does that surely values their religion more important than their national identity. Otherwise why would a Bengali Muslim consider something random written in Arabic as holy? Or why would a Pakistani consider Urdu to be an Islamic language and think Bengalis were traitors because they preferred Bengali?

Synchronal contemporary Messengers were present in this world, at the same time but in different people and at different places. So your logic that there needs to be single state governing Muslims is impracticable and flawed and wasn't even appreciated back then when world's population didn't use to be in billions.

Islam proposes a system for humans so they can equally share and benefit from the treasures of this Earth. Quran tells you that you have been born into different tribes for the sake of identity only ........ but it doesn't anywhere encourage anyone to say that my tribe is better than your's, the only people better are the ones who are just and humane and fear ALLAH because they know if they commit injustice, anarchy, killing, mayhem, destruction in this world ....... they will be held accountable for their actions in hereafter. As I said in beginning that my nationality is my identity and my being Muslim is my faith ......... my faith is flexible enough to recognise my need for nationality and associating with people near and similar to me .......... so I don't blame actions of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Mujeeb or anyone else on my faith.

You are treating individual actions as something that Quran ordered or encouraged ......... whereas this is not the case at all.

 

[Scorpion]

Wow that is an interesting discussion going on. I have things to says and some counter arguments as well. BRB