Pak Navy Air Strike Capability:---

Mastankhan

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@Mangus Ortus Novem

"
My very dear Pak MK,


I rather that you put all your thinking process into Strategic Framework...that we both and @Khafee have been trying to instil into the thinking process of YoungPaks.

But on tactical level I do welcome your angeling regarding fighter aircrafts... and you know... I do look at them as policy instruements... given my back ground is Finan/policy... so ....

Regarding, JF Thunder... of course, Blk4 is going to be the thing which you and I were calling JF18 i.e Thunder NG! Enlarged and all that jazz.

We need to put our thinking hats on and think more about PNS though... @Rashid Mahmood is here so he can provide the Creative Ternsion necessary to keep developing new models of thought.

We need PNS to now stop buying and stop this drama about ToT...and start producing locally... we need to build destroyers... even in they are not as capable as the next guy...but first blocks needs to emerge soon...

Sorry to bring PNS in it...but lessons from JF development.... good and bad... can be transplated in other services... We do need a Joint Defence Doctorine... pronto!

Mangus "


Hi,

I like that term---"policy instruments" for fighter aircraft and that works very well for the air force---.

But in this day and age---pak navy cannot be left behind---.

This modern battle will belong to the Pak navy---. It will be the pak navy that will make or break the stalemate that would be taking place over the land---.

I again go back to pakistan's coastline's geography in relation to india's. Our relative geographic locations of Gwadar & Pasni are a God given gift to us---.

They are located at such an angle and distance that the enemy cannot keep an eye on the aircrafts that are taking off from these points---. They cannot push their awacs closer for fear of being shot down.

Pak navy needs to get out of the mode of a ship fighting navy to being a naval air force as well---.

I do not know under whose tutelage the orange uniform fly---the Paf or the navy---nut the orange uniforms need to fly under the navy wings full time---.

They be trained by the Paf---but they will stay as AVIATORS under the control and command of the navy---at the disposal of the navy---.

The aircraft will be maintained and serviced by the air force as they are currently being done---but all operational planning will be done by the naval command---.

I still have not changed my mind about the JH7A's---. This is still the best strike platform for the naval arena---there is no other aircraft that comes even close to the operational capabilities of this strike platform---. Remember---I am not talking about missions over land---I am talking about the strike element using smart weapons from standoff distances---.

The actions of 27th feb proved that most air battles will be fought from standoff BVR distances---and missiles with a higher percentage of kill ratio at longer distances will be the king---.

So---if a SU30 with its cobra cannot survive a BVR then big deal if the JH7A may not survive the shot.

The JH7A aircraft gives a true face and strike capability to that old " Operation TROMBAY" that was conceived some 47 years ago---.
 

Mastankhan

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Hi,

"Operation Trombay"---a one way trip by Paf strike aircraft to hit Bombay in 1971---all set and ready to act upon but final approval not given---.

There were a total of 10 pilots who were assigned this task to fly to bombay---strike the target and then ditch the aircraft in the ocean---so when I have talked about striking mumbai---it is to let the members know that it was nothing new---.

When I mentioned that most of the pilots flying the JH7A's would be going on one way trips---there were some great pakistan keyboard warriors crying about the 'would be' loss of pilots---.

But the thing is that the planners in 1971 knew how important was Bombay but I don't know why the action was not taken---.

Similar indecision was shown in 1965 when a planner prsented to the base commander a strike plan on airfields at Dehli / Agra---and that incompetent coward just waved it away---like it was nothing---. Nur Khan found out about it after the war and mentioned if he had been told---he would have authorized the mission---.

So---coming back---the deep strike and the importance of hitting enemy at vulnerable points have always been the focal point of all combats over the period of known and unknown history of mankind---but surprisingly Paf has been acting tactless and leaderless about this critical issue---.

The major problem I see is that the Paf does not show any fear of the enemy---and I don't disagree with that---but the problem here is---the Paf's position is tactically SUICIDAL__-.

It is purely based on the capability & success of our weapons as show---but what is not being shown is what if the weapon be neutered or the enemy may get a couple of LUCKY SHOTS at our critical equipment---then we supposedly don't have a fall back plan---.

The thing is that if the Pak navy choses to take charge of a navy air force and decides on heavies to do the task---at least 1/3 rd to 1/2 of enemy air force and missile force would be diverted to protect cities on the coastline---.

The goal of the pak navy needs to be to make one after the other powerful hits on mumbai with standoff weapons---what that would do is make the capitol run out of india---. That should be the start of war---.
 
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PewPew

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One interim solution could be to strengthen (if need be) the JF-17's wings and weapon stations to the point where it can carry 2 HD-1A supersonic cruising anti-ship missiles (AShM). A single HD-1A has a total mass of 1,200 kg.

Leverage the existing advantage of the JF-17's numbers immediately, and imbue it with a multi-spectrum anti-ship capability via HD-1A (supersonic-cruising), C-802A (subsonic-skimming), and CM-400AKG (ballistic).

If you need a shot in the arm in terms of numbers, then consider @Mastankhan your earlier recommendation of procuring J-10CEs in sizable numbers to augment the JF-17s in this role (if not take lead). The advantage of multi-role assets is that the PAF can flexibly shift assets according to the tide of the conflict (e.g., first 6 sorties are heavy anti-ship, next 3 sorties are all air-to-air).
 

Mastankhan

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One interim solution could be to strengthen (if need be) the JF-17's wings and weapon stations to the point where it can carry 2 HD-1A supersonic cruising anti-ship missiles (AShM). A single HD-1A has a total mass of 1,200 kg.

Leverage the existing advantage of the JF-17's numbers immediately, and imbue it with a multi-spectrum anti-ship capability via HD-1A (supersonic-cruising), C-802A (subsonic-skimming), and CM-400AKG (ballistic).

If you need a shot in the arm in terms of numbers, then consider @Mastankhan your earlier recommendation of procuring J-10CEs in sizable numbers to augment the JF-17s in this role (if not take lead). The advantage of multi-role assets is that the PAF can flexibly shift assets according to the tide of the conflict (e.g., first 6 sorties are heavy anti-ship, next 3 sorties are all air-to-air).
Hi,

The JF17 does not fit the bill---regardless whatever is done to it---. It is not designed for low low flight over water for long distances---.

JF17 is not available for any change that fits the navy bill---. JF17 is not a fit all situations---. The first goal of the JF17 is to fill in the minimum numbers that are needed---which it has not done so far over the years---.

And then to expect it to fight a naval war that is right on top of our heads is tantamount to not understanding the severity of the situation---.

The mirage 5 is a capable aircraft---it can take the Hatf V111---it can be refuelled---it can possiby fly with 2 C802 AShM but the most important of all these weapons is the CM400AKG---the supersonic missile and the Babur cruise missile---.

These two missiles the Babur and the CM400 AKG are standoff weapons the Babur can be launched from around 700 KM away from the mumbai shoreline from a very different and unique angle---and the CM400AKG could be launched from a syadff distance of 250 MILES away from the shore---.

The launch point of both these missile are farther away from any surface to air missiles launched from the shoreline---.

The enemy can launch air support---and we can also change the targets in mid-stride and target other way points---trying to put enemy interceptors in disarray and slip in our air superiority fighters to take the enemy out---.

I will guarantee one thing---if the Paf announces that it is getting 50 JH7A11's---you will hear screams coming from india like you have never heard before---.
 
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@Mastankhan


My very dear MK,


Great start.. Thanks for putting down your thoughts... we can now build upon it. You know I am Money/Policy ... so don't expect any technical stuff from my end... for that we have @Rashid Mahmood and @Khafee !!

Now at this stage... from policy point of view I think we need multiple 'Means' of delivery not just Mirages/JFs ... so JH series would be a great add on as MissileTruck with escorts form JF/F16.

However, it is not just air delivery we need also to focus on surface/sub-surface and of course shore-based ... but thing with shore-based is... actually RetreatCover... not much of punch because when you come to shore based defence then your PolicyOptions is already into survival mode.

If I may suggest we do need SeaPatrolDrones with ability to carry AShMs .... with datalinkage to other assets... in otherwords we need to develop a truly a SeaDefenceDataNetwork to create NetworkCentric PNS.

In the coming days PNS role in Afro-Pak Ocean Region is only going to grow... and in this regard OurNavalDoctorine needs to dove tail this reality.

With acquisition of Chinese Surface/SubSurface assets and JinnahClass from Turkey... I believe it is high time that KS&EW starts designing PNS ships... we need Heavies, brother...

We don't have dedicated Destroyers... which needs to be designed and built in PortQasim shipyards... enough of assemblying kits in the name of ToT.

In SubSurface class think Baracuda class ships... so we have work to do in the coming years...

In essence it all boils down to how we percieve ourselves and our role in the World. I do strongly believe Our Role is in AfroPak Ocean Region... much more than ever before.

So yeah... JF/JH for now are alright... JH can be plug n play for at least 5 years or more... our focus needs to be localised AShMs... I read that PNS is working on local SuperSonic missile... which is a right direction.

Mangus
 

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