Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

[AliYusuf]

You mentioned range but what about - azimuth - as in the viewing beamwidth of the missile seeker ?

Couldn't find info on that yet.

 

[AliYusuf]

Errrrrr........

SU30 was armed with a version of R-27 with range almost equal to AIM120 ....... so why couldnt they get closer to score a hit ? They had equal chance.

Probably being a SARH missile, the scenario didn't encourage it's usage. But I personally think that after being comprehensively jammed ... their pilots got unnerved and were not thinking straight.

 

[AliYusuf]

@!eon & @Signalian, Gentlemen ... my humble respectful request is to kindly refrain from making your exchange even more acrimonious. Lets step away from this argument. This thread in particular and the forum in general will be the better for it. Thank you

 

[!eon]

@!eon & @Signalian, Gentlemen ... my humble respectful request is to kindly refrain from making your exchange even more acrimonious. Lets step away from this argument. This thread in particular and the forum in general will be the better for it. Thank you

I have already requested that very humbly to Mr. @Signalian

 

[Wolf-PK]

Am I reading posts in PDF?

 

[HRK]

Some say SD-10 was fired, but AIM120 hit first.

Good to know this there were reports that during some instances multiple aircrafts from our side had locks on same bogey but was not aware about SD-10 launch

 

[HRK]

they offered M2k to us first Paf rejected it---.

Mastan shaib I previously shared many media reports about M2K, it not us who rejected it, it was French who refused to sale on the excuse of our financial conditions, while they had no issue of selling the submarine during the same time in the same financial conditions, does it ring the bell .... ?

I would request you to plz check the timelines when Indian Air force float the tender of MRCA (which latter converted to MMRCA) date and refusal of Mirage-2K sales to PAF by France and when you are at it plz do check what French were offering in MRCA tender with an offer to shift manufacturing line to India then cast blame on PAF

 

[Khafee]

Alright gentlemen, we are all respectable adults here. No fighting. Pls be civil and respectful, keep in mind that you might be good at something, and the other fellow at something else. We all need to join hands and move forward.

Let bygones be bygones.

Can I trust you all to be nice good productive members?

Thank You!

@Signalian @Mastankhan @!eon

 

[PewPew]

Mastan shaib I previously shared many media reports about M2K, it not us who rejected it, it was French who refused to sale on the excuse of our financial conditions, while they had no issue of selling the submarine during the same time in the same financial conditions, does it ring the bell .... ?

I would request you to plz check the timelines when Indian Air force float the tender of MRCA (which latter converted to MMRCA) date and refusal of Mirage-2K sales to PAF by France and when you are at it plz do check what French were offering in MRCA tender with an offer to shift manufacturing line to India then cast blame on PAF

You're right. The first attempt at the M2K was actually tied to BCCI Bank being the PAF's co-sign or guarantor (it was a big reason why buying arms was easy on the 1960s and 1970s). But the US took our bank down and the program got delayed with now the PAF solely at the discretion of French EXIM loans.

The Agosta 90B bid got through (for credit) as it was 3X smaller in financial scope than the M2K.

Remember, this is 1994-1996, the PAF actually did give up on the F-16s and was prepared to pivot to the M2K. The 32 jets at $3.2 b in 1990s money was A LOT in value, suggesting that we booked a d-level MRO site, M53 MRO, strike capability upgrades (as M2K was solely A2A until -5 came), and missiles.

The PAF was also working with South Africa on SOWs, and the intent was more to arm the M2Ks than solely the older Mirages.

The crux for France was ensuring we could pay, and a big part of that was a good downpayment. And, as conveniently as ever, the US refused to release the $600 m (in 1990s money, so around $1 b today) it kept for the F-16s.

The PAF's mistake was in the early 1980s. It should have taken the M2K and, if US aid came, took the F-16s as a bonus on aid (but pay cash for the M2K).

The story here is that the US really worked hard to screw Pakistan's defence capabilities. And since the debacle of the 8 F-16s, the PAF (or PA) aren't going to pay a dime of their own to the US unless it is necessary (e.g. upgrading old F-16s).

But due to the shifty nature of the West it also wouldn't surprise me if the PAF is prioritizing Azm, even at the cost of procurements in the present (aside from JF-17). In fact, with Azm, they're also clearly suspicious of the Chinese; they want to get their own fighter, turnkey.

This mentality has its downside; we wait longer, we don't get to posture with the Indians when they buy, etc. But the Chinese went through it, and look where they are today.

The key is building minimum deterrence with what you already have. The Chinese went hard on the F-7 and, when available, a limited no. of basic Su-27s (a good jet, but nowhere near the electronic value of the F/A-18C/D the USN was fielding).

Focus on the nukes, BMs, cruise missiles, and as much assymmetrical warfare as possible, and in turn improve JF-17 and work on Azm.

If we take Azm seriously we could actually create high value economic inputs (e.g. gas turbines, composites, electronics, etc) and solve our fiscal limits and break free of overseas reliance at the same time.

 

[HRK]

On the face value France simply refuse to extend loan facility for M2K in 1997 or 1998 during NS government tenure forgetting the exact year now, but the actual reason was they were interested in Indian MRCA tender and was making offer to transfer manufacturing line to India.

During 2000 while Mushraf was in power when we again enquired about M2K they again refused to sale on the ground that its manufacturing line has ended and forced us to buy non AESA version of Rafale on such a high price that it was a daytime robbery.

 

[PewPew]

On the face value France simply refuse to extend loan facility for M2K in 1997 or 1998 during NS government tenure forgetting the exact year now, but the actual reason was they were interested in Indian MRCA tender and was making offer to transfer manufacturing line to India.

During 2000 while Mushraf was in power when we again enquired about M2K they again refused to sale on the ground that its manufacturing line has ended and forced us to buy non AESA version of Rafale on such a high price that it was a daytime robbery.

When US aid was in full swing (esp. the economic aid, which inflated our stature a bit), the PAF listed plans for 55 Block-52 and 24 "Plus One" jets.

The "Plus One" came down to the Typhoon T1 and FC-20. Alenia (now under Leonardo) was pitching the T1 as a joint buy with Turkey. When Turkey opted for the F-35 and the T2 costing much, much more than the T1 (itself a minor improvement to the Block 52), the PAF opted for FC-20.

They also looked at the FC-20 as a strike fighter that can leverage the F-16s' good A2A.

All said, the economy and shifty Western actions totaled the PAF's efforts on multiple occasions.

And there's no equivalence to what the PN is doing vs the PAF; the procurement and support costs of a MILGEM is equivalent to just 2 Typhoons, at most (more like 1.5).

The PAF is now a more expensive branch than the PN. Thus, to ensure it never ends up in this situation again, it's opting to develop a high end fighter in house.

And it might not be alone. We might not be too thrilled with the Chinese right now, but Brazil, Ukraine and South Africa all have similar issues to us right now. They understand the two-faced foreign relations of the West and increasingly high costs.

Ukraine wants to rebuild its air force, and it ain't going to do it on trainers. Yet they have great gas turbine and turbofan engine knowledge, and the PAF needs that independent knowledge for Azm.

Brazil understands aircraft supply chain dynamics really well (Embraer), and Saab is rumoured to be there giving tips on next gen tech.

South Africa is a well known quantity, but they tried making a high end jet in the Carver. They know how risky it is (and have knowledge on setting up design and testing infrastructure, plus tech demo experience via Rooivalk).

IMO the big powers took advantage of us and our desperation for too long. It's time to cast a middle finger and go it on our own; we're already alone in reality, but we don't have our mindset there yet.

 

[loanranger]

The first attempt at the M2K was actually tied to BCCI Bank being the PAF's co-sign or guarantor (it was a big reason why buying arms was easy on the 1960s and 1970s). But the US took our bank down and the program got delayed with now the PAF solely at the discretion of French EXIM loans.

This part resonates especially with me. As my dad worked for BCCI in Dubai for a long time. He told me stories of how BCCI would fund and provide cover to Pakistans nuclear programme and other things. You'd be surprised to know that many indians sold out to give Pakistan nuclear tech. That bank was one of the best in the world and service quality was the best. The Americans knew it was beneficial to us so as usual they used excuses such as regulatory problems etc to shut it down. Dad and all other senior employees were refused jobs in banks in dubai afterwards. So all of them moved back to Pakistan. Many senior members then went on to found major banks in Pakistan.

 

[AliYusuf]

This part resonates especially with me. As my dad worked for BCCI in Dubai for a long time. He told me stories of how BCCI would fund and provide cover to Pakistans nuclear programme and other things. You'd be surprised to know that many indians sold out to give Pakistan nuclear tech. That bank was one of the best in the world and service quality was the best. The Americans knew it was beneficial to us so as usual they used excuses such as regulatory problems etc to shut it down. Dad and all other senior employees were refused jobs in banks in dubai afterwards. So all of them moved back to Pakistan. Many senior members then went on to found major banks in Pakistan.

I am a graduate of FAST Institute of Computer Science (which later became FAST-National University of Computer & Emerging Sciences) Karachi.

It was funded and financed by the BCCI Bank in the initial years. In fact it was initially called BCCI-FAST.

 

[Mastankhan]

It is his opinion. You should learn to absorb difference of opinion.
It would be better if you don't use this forum a platform to abuse others just for different opinions, like pdf.

You're right. The first attempt at the M2K was actually tied to BCCI Bank being the PAF's co-sign or guarantor (it was a big reason why buying arms was easy on the 1960s and 1970s). But the US took our bank down and the program got delayed with now the PAF solely at the discretion of French EXIM loans.

The Agosta 90B bid got through (for credit) as it was 3X smaller in financial scope than the M2K.

Remember, this is 1994-1996, the PAF actually did give up on the F-16s and was prepared to pivot to the M2K. The 32 jets at $3.2 b in 1990s money was A LOT in value, suggesting that we booked a d-level MRO site, M53 MRO, strike capability upgrades (as M2K was solely A2A until -5 came), and missiles.

The PAF was also working with South Africa on SOWs, and the intent was more to arm the M2Ks than solely the older Mirages.

The crux for France was ensuring we could pay, and a big part of that was a good downpayment. And, as conveniently as ever, the US refused to release the $600 m (in 1990s money, so around $1 b today) it kept for the F-16s.

The PAF's mistake was in the early 1980s. It should have taken the M2K and, if US aid came, took the F-16s as a bonus on aid (but pay cash for the M2K).

The story here is that the US really worked hard to screw Pakistan's defence capabilities. And since the debacle of the 8 F-16s, the PAF (or PA) aren't going to pay a dime of their own to the US unless it is necessary (e.g. upgrading old F-16s).

But due to the shifty nature of the West it also wouldn't surprise me if the PAF is prioritizing Azm, even at the cost of procurements in the present (aside from JF-17). In fact, with Azm, they're also clearly suspicious of the Chinese; they want to get their own fighter, turnkey.

This mentality has its downside; we wait longer, we don't get to posture with the Indians when they buy, etc. But the Chinese went through it, and look where they are today.

The key is building minimum deterrence with what you already have. The Chinese went hard on the F-7 and, when available, a limited no. of basic Su-27s (a good jet, but nowhere near the electronic value of the F/A-18C/D the USN was fielding).

Focus on the nukes, BMs, cruise missiles, and as much assymmetrical warfare as possible, and in turn improve JF-17 and work on Azm.

If we take Azm seriously we could actually create high value economic inputs (e.g. gas turbines, composites, electronics, etc) and solve our fiscal limits and break free of overseas reliance at the same time.

Hi,

In 1984 I am in miami for awhile---. My roomate worked for BCCI---the stupid things the BCCI did and did it openly was surprising---.

The BCCI should have never had an operation in the US in the first place---but if they really wanted to---then they should have kept a very low profile---///.

As for the F16's in the 80's---tactically a great aircraft---but strategically not the best buy---.

Strategically---the M2K was the aircraft of choice---. Because there was no place to go for india---so going for the supposed #2 aircraft---we still would be operating the most advanced in our theater---US would not have sold the F16 to the indians.

Then the sanctions fiasco---everybody who was somebody in washington knew that pakistan will get sanctioned---only the Paf did not want to believe it---.

All well wishers of Paf told them to go for the M2K's---that would be sanction free---and if you have a parallel performance aircraft---you may not get sanctioned because sanctions would do no good---.

And yet the Paf pushed ahead---.

Then the MuradK fiasco came about---him being too honest and timing was the issue---. There was a deal for supposed 36 or 40 M2K---those built for Jordan and more advanced than what india had---.

Zardari supposedly wanted 250 million dollars in kick backs---. Ok---understood---.

A prudent thinker would have looked at it this way---convert the bribe to the number of aircraft it would buy---250 mil amounts to 5 M2K's---now can my country live with 31 instead of 36 or 35 instead of 40 M2K's and could these numbers do the job---ie 5 less aircraft---the answer would have been a yes---.

Major defense deals must never be stopped for kick backs if the equipment under question is tier 1 equipment and much needed---. Because once stopped---they are very difficult to re-start the purchase later on---and we found that out---.

Zardari got major kick backs on the Agosta 90B---but we got the most advanced sub in the region for that time period---that was a surprise---and it will be force once it gets its upgrades---.

As for the Rafales---the other poster does not have the intellect to understand even though I have been writing about it for the last 15 years---.

There is no price too high for getting tier 1 weapons for a small nation fighting against a large enemy in the first place---and in stopping the enemy from buying it.

Rafale was the most advanced 4th gen aircraft in the market at that time---available to the enemy.

In less than 20 years---for the second time---Paf allowed the enemy to get the most potent aircraft---first was the M2k---.

If the Paf had gotten the Rafale---india had no where else to go at that time---.

At that time---the indian govt was weak---it was looking for ways to make peace---it was looking for EXCUSES to make peace so they could answer their public---claiming enemy had gotten stronger---so we made peace---a good excuse---works under every circumstance.

But the Paf failed at that step as well---.

Paf never had any concept of what the primary purpose of a major weapons system was or they never showed it---.

What was the big deal if we had to spend 5 billion dollars extra for a higher price weapon---we would have a signed and enforced peace deal 14 years ago---.

Young kids keep talking about weapons---but they act clueless and don't even bother to learn what a timely purchase does for the nation---.

After 9/11---we became sanction free---but Paf never showed any urgency to get the right equipment in a timely manner---.

That was not my fault---Paf had the ball in their court---they were blundering around like blind fools bumping from pillar to post in a dark room---.

 

[Mastankhan]

This part resonates especially with me. As my dad worked for BCCI in Dubai for a long time. He told me stories of how BCCI would fund and provide cover to Pakistans nuclear programme and other things. You'd be surprised to know that many indians sold out to give Pakistan nuclear tech. That bank was one of the best in the world and service quality was the best. The Americans knew it was beneficial to us so as usual they used excuses such as regulatory problems etc to shut it down. Dad and all other senior employees were refused jobs in banks in dubai afterwards. So all of them moved back to Pakistan. Many senior members then went on to found major banks in Pakistan.

Hi,

BCCI should have never opened up in the US---.