Pakistan shot down 2 IAF jets

Joe Shearer

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Another site of wreckage on Indian side.
This definitely the third loss of IAF flying machines (Helicopter) in course of Pak retaliation.
View attachment 6772

Notice that the ISPR never mentions this? Maybe because it occurred the previous day? Or was it the Bat Plane that shot it down?
 

Joe Shearer

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Geneva convention doesn't apply to Indian captive, because he was not here for war. His target was nothing but civilians.
His return only reflect foolishness on Pakistan part. Geneva convention talks about exchange of prisoners, and there was no exchange but only one sided love affair.
In 1999 war with India, Indian PM went running to US and refused to accept captives as Indian citizen.
I suggest you ask a knowledgeable adult.

Secondly, do take the trouble of finding out which PM went to the US, and which PM stayed at home; also, which Army denied the existence of the NLI and which army buried those dead soldiers.
 

Joe Shearer

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Every day world came across lies of Indian military establishment but still listen to their baseless allegations.
Last time Indian military claim of killing 300 people in Pakistan. There's 0 loss of human life and 0 infrastructure damage.... but world believed Indian military blindly.
India planes just choose a spot, where Pakistani jets take time to reach. They enter the Pak airspace and drop payload in haste and ran back.
They were in Pak arirspace for <2 minutes.
LOL.

The Indian military made no claim of casualties. There was a private briefing by a politician to some newsmen, with no basis whatever, and that got reported. When the Indian chief of air staff was asked, he said in public (not in Urdu, verifiable) that the air force hit targets, others counted casualties. The air force had nothing to do with that.

There was another independent report that a large number of conversations had been monitored at that location. Try not to confuse the two.
 

Joe Shearer

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BATMAN,
Indians first need to narrate the events according to their claim.
Just claiming F-16 was shot is not enough.
Which Indian pilot shot Pakistani F-16?
The pilot who fired an R73 Vympel missile.
Which Pakistani plane hit 2 Indian fighter jets?
None. ISPR doesn't mention it either, it is not just us, it is your representative also.
Who were the 2 souls seen ejecting on Indian side?
Nobody ejected on the Indian side, ask the Kashmiris.
Where is wreckage of F-16.
On a Pakistan Army truck.
 

Joe Shearer

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New Delhi: Even as Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman walked across the India-Pakistan border on 1 March, a family in Pakistan is in mourning — silent, blacked out from the public view, their sacrifice unacknowledged. Pakistan Air Force Wing Commander Shahaz-ud-Din, the F-16 pilot shot down in a dogfight over the Nowshera sector, is reported to have been lynched by a mob who mistook him for an Indian airman.

Both men, in one of those strange twists history revels in, come from illustrious military families: Wing Commander Varthaman’s father, S Varthaman, as Air Marshal; Shahaz-ud-Din’s father, Waseem-ud-Din, is also an Air Marshal of the Pakistan Air Force, who has flown F-16 and Mirages.


The two sons engaged each other in the air; one was taken a prisoner of war and has returned home, while the other was killed by his own people.
The goddess of war, it is said, is fickle with her favours — but few twists of fate exist in the annals of history to match this one.

The news that Shahaz-ud-Din's plane was shot down was first reported by London-based lawyer Khalid Umar, who says he received it privately, from individuals related to the F-16 pilot’s family.

Umar’s account says that Shahaz-ud-Din parachuted out of his aircraft safely, but was then attacked by a mob after the F-16 crash-landed — possibly in the Laam valley, stretching out westward from Naushehra into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Shahaz-ud-Din, Umar has claimed, was hospitalised, but succumbed to his injuries.

The PAF Wing Commander flew for the 19 Squadron, also known as the ‘Sher-Dils’, who served with distinction in the war of 1965 and 1971.
Pakistani military spokesperson Major-General Asif Ghafoor had asserted, on the morning of 28 February, that two Indian jets had been shot down and two Indian pilots injured — one of whom was in army custody, and the other in the hospital.

Later in the evening, Major-General Ghafoor stated that only one Indian pilot was in Pakistan Army custody, without explaining his earlier comments.

“It’s extremely improbable the Pakistan Army just made up the second plane and pilot,” an Indian military source says. "The more likely explanation is that troops were unable to identify the destroyed aircraft or the battered, broken body to be their own. There was probably miscommunication up the chain of command.”

In the 1999 Kargil War, Pakistan had denied its troops were involved — leading to protests in Pakistan’s northern areas, from where the Northern Light Infantry is drawn.

Eleven years after the Kargil War, Pakistan’s army officially acknowledged its role, naming 453 soldiers and officers killed in the 1999 conflict. Captain Karnal Sher and Havildar Lalak Jan, who were both killed on 7 July, 1999, were awarded Pakistan’s highest honour, the Nishan-e-Haider, but were not acknowledged as Kargil war casualties until November 2010.
@BATMAN

See above.
 

Joe Shearer

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India is leading with shoddy news sources but Zero evidence.
It's a fact, that US has blocked Pakistani F-16, helicopters and spares in past on many occasions, even after taking full payment in advance.
Same happened with the order announced in 2006.
I have shared official US state source earlier and share it here again and read the last page:
Obviously didn't do your homework.

@Nilgiri has rather brutally ripped off the trimmings and the false news.
 

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BATMAN

ISPR claimed no F-16 is lost and India is trying to prove F-16 is lost but with mere claims and baseless news sources.
Anything else?

List of Indian lies only from current episode:
1- Indian preemptive strikes killed 300 children on a school strike in Pakistan.

News from your imagination? Neither India nor Pakistan claimed it. It is known that the JeM facilities bombed including a Madrassah and it is also known that some 300 odd identities had emerged from analysis of mobile phone chatter. That does not mean 300 children were killed, especially as Pakistan claims nobody was killed.

2- India reject, PAF claim of shooting down ANY Indian jet

At the time of the Balakot bombing there was no claim shooting down any Indian jet. At the time of the Pakistani retaliatory strike, the IAF announced the loss of a plane.

3- Plane wreckage what Pakistan is showing, is actually F-16 shot by mig 21

Nobody on the Indian side confused the wreckage of two different planes.

4- PAF didn't strike back

The Indian Foreign Ministry spokesman stated clearly that the PAF had raided J&K.

Above claims has been settled in favor of ISPR press briefing. India proven liar thoroughly.
Indian stories starting to change when pilot emerged on Pakistani side but not all is aligned, yet.

6- Only one IAF jet is down i.e. mig 21 and pilot is in Pakistani custody

This is what the IAF claimed. The ISPR claimed that two planes had been shot down and two pilots parachuted down, and then changed their story.

7- Shahzaz ud Din was the pilot of F-16 shot by Indian mig-21

Claim made by a Pakistani.

8- India found wreckage of AIM120 with model and batch number intact.

Congratulations. Your first correct statement.

9- 14 F-16 took part in operation leading to the the mig-21 kill

YOUR SECOND CORRECT STATEMENT! Keep it up, you're on a roll.

What support ISPR claim:
a) Video of injured paratrooper in his flying suit, inside Indian Occupied Kashmir, recorded by Indian paramedical staff.

There was no paratrooper within miles of the situation. A Mi helicopter had crashed; period.

b) Document hosted at the website of US 'Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition & Sustainment' contradicting the batch number on AIM wreckage Indian military establishment was parading.

Contradicted by facts in @Nilgiri's post.
 

Joe Shearer

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This press brief (from IAF) is circulating on internet and is being reprinted in international press.
Item#2. states 3 types of India fighter jets were sent to intercept PAF and one of those scrambled type was Su-30.
It's now official that SU30 which Pakistan claim to shoot took part in the A2A battle.
View attachment 6776
That was never a matter of controversy. What have you proved?
 

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Not even the PAF is serious in claiming that more than one Indian plane was shot down. Forget about their being shot down by JF-17s, the AIM20 missile recovered proves conclusively that the PAF deployed F 16s. That may account for the missing plane and the missing pilot, both of which landed in POK.
ISPR claimed 2 kills from beginning.

May be you should explain this:
 

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With logic like this, there is no need for air forces, a few fanboys on either side will do. The MiG21 fired an R73; what should the F16 have fired?
OK.. my statement was in reference to mig of Abhinandan. Which still is holds.
We know now that wreckage of Su-30 fell on Indian side, than that kill might be BVR-SD-10
 

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That was never a matter of controversy. What have you proved?
You are coming too late and lot has been changed now from IAF side... like you never intended to hit any school building.
Similarly there was initially claims that no Su-30 was involved in interception of jF-17.
 

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If the second roasted body was Indian, the Pakistan authorities would have returned it for suitable interment. Why have they smuggled it to an undisclosed grave? It's looking more and more peculiar.
Roasted body was next to heli crash, which fell inside IoK. Wreckage fell over larger area.
Su-30 probably fell away from residential area and Kashmiris from IoK who may have tried to reach the site must have been taken out by your army.
 

Joe Shearer

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I am not here to pick sides but I always thought, wondered and questioned this myself (take note I'm not side picking here)
You have to get used to the fact that in all India-Pakistan engagements, facts are at a discount. Even today, after careful forensic investigation, the exact figures of air losses in the 1965 are not satisfactorily established. In addition, in reading current accounts, you run the serious and highly toxic risk of encountering the feverish posts of teen-aged fans who believe that their posts are also part of the hostilities.

Let us take these one by one.

If PAF shot down a Flanker (Su-30MKI) why did not the PAF,IAF officials reveal the lost of such a high end jet. you'd think because of lost of such a advanced jet, it would be making headlines....
If it had been, it would have - should have - made headlines.

[/quote]then you have the IAF, they claimed to have downed a PAF F-16, [/quote]

My understanding is that in proven terms, the presence of F16s in the raiding team has been established by the debris of the AIM120 missile. There is no wreckage visible any longer (I will explain that in a minute) and there is no pilot, either dead or alive.

well for starters the US-Pakistan has an agreement where PAF can only use F-16s with inside their own airspace,
This is why proving that F16s were present is important for India; it allows India to embarrass the US, to show the US that their safeguards don't work, to remind the US that similar restrictions in 1965 failed to work in similar fashion, to put indirect pressure on Pakistan by arousing the displeasure of an embarrassed US, and to set a precedent for the future, as there are several items on which similar restrictions have been placed on India.

that is why Pakistan chose JF-17 because they needed a "less restricted" aircraft for multiple purposes.
And that is the point: Pakistan did not restrict herself to the JF-17.

however they claim they fired an AIM-120, but US will not allow the integration if AIM-120s onto JF-17 again due to the confusing but strict US-Pakistani defence ties.
So we return to the point that Pakistan used the F16 in a clandestine manner, that they have been caught at it, and now they will be accused of misuse and of violating the terms of the agreement with the US.

but overall if the IAF managed to down an F-16 they would show the pilot if he was captured or deceased just to prove they had a pilot in their hands (I'm not trying to sound rude) as well as managing take pics of end of the F-16 (where it has Pakistan's flag).
Please remember the situation:
  1. A west-east incursion by the PAF, for the final leg, by maybe two aircraft;
  2. An east-west response by the IAF, probably by 8 MiG 21s;
  3. One of the MiG 21s gets a lock on an F16 to his west, and fires an R 73 Vympel;
  4. He is shot down himself, reportedly by a JF-17;
  5. The MiG 21 lands in POK, and the pilot parachutes down into the same territory;
  6. The Pakistani ISPR reports two pilots and two planes down;
  7. The Pakistani ISPR changes its statement and acknowledges one pilot in custody, no mention of the second.
In this connection, you may recall that in the initial air combat encounters over the trench lines during the First World War, most French, British and American planes crashed behind German lines, and most French, British and American pilots parachuted down behind German lines, because of the prevailing westerly winds. The Germans had the advantage, if it can be so called, of the winds favouring them, and of the chances of their being deposited behind their own lines, if they survived.

The same thing happened here, save that it was not due to the winds but due to the chase to the west, and to the momentum of all planes being very highly westward.

so far, All I been seeing is Pakistan proving they downed the MiG-21 (they showed the debris of the plane) as well as captured the pilot, while India only managed to show an F-16 crash (which was a USAF F-16 crash in Kansas) as well as an AIM-120 scrap piece but seriously not "solid evidence" of much else.
The Indian side did not show an F 16 crash. That was the private effort of some enterprising fanboy or a media clown trying to present cast-iron news. Be careful never to go by Indian news except for government briefings or the YouTube submissions of Cybersurg.

Disclaimer: I do not agree with Cybersurg's political views and his hostility towards Pakistan. You are being referred to his YouTube pieces only due to his meticulous analysis.
 

Joe Shearer

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You are coming too late and lot has been changed now from IAF side... like you never intended to hit any school building.
Similarly there was initially claims that no Su-30 was involved in interception of jF-17.
I understand your difficulty in walking back some of your more extreme claims.
 

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Pictured was shared by Indian sources.... and than got recirculated.
Obviously it dosn't prove, if he's alive or dead.
ISPR can be contacted @ www.ispr.gov.pk
Since it originated with a gentleman of Pakistani origin, we thought there might be some authenticity to it. Being shared by Indian sources is one thing, being originated by Pakistani sources is another thing.
 
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