Pakistan to get F16 -Blk70/72 | Page 34 | World Defense

Pakistan to get F16 -Blk70/72

Signalian

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Don't yell !
how that feels? and when you are saying this to an old man of your father's age ? Can you say this to your father ?
and now please don't divert this to lecture of English language to direct it to somewhere else.

@Khafee please delete irrelevant posts from 489 onward. Seems like culture of pdf is slipping here too.
I know what i said - step aside if you cant take it
 

Signalian

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Hi,

That is not very intelligent comment---.

A Think Tank Member from a sister forum must show better intellect in his post---otherwise people will say---" SELECTED THINK TANK "---.
You can choose any word you like for me, the comment may not be intelligent as per your standards, but it does reflect a way of thinking - forever against PAF or defining a sense of duty towards Pakistan.
 

AliYusuf

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Errrrrr........ :)

SU30 was armed with a version of R-27 with range almost equal to AIM120 ....... so why couldnt they get closer to score a hit ? They had equal chance.
Probably being a SARH missile, the scenario didn't encourage it's usage. But I personally think that after being comprehensively jammed ... their pilots got unnerved and were not thinking straight.
 

AliYusuf

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@!eon & @Signalian, Gentlemen ... my humble respectful request is to kindly refrain from making your exchange even more acrimonious. Lets step away from this argument. This thread in particular and the forum in general will be the better for it. Thank you
 

HRK

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they offered M2k to us first Paf rejected it---.
Mastan shaib I previously shared many media reports about M2K, it not us who rejected it, it was French who refused to sale on the excuse of our financial conditions, while they had no issue of selling the submarine during the same time in the same financial conditions, does it ring the bell .... ?

I would request you to plz check the timelines when Indian Air force float the tender of MRCA (which latter converted to MMRCA) date and refusal of Mirage-2K sales to PAF by France and when you are at it plz do check what French were offering in MRCA tender with an offer to shift manufacturing line to India then cast blame on PAF
 

Khafee

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Alright gentlemen, we are all respectable adults here. No fighting. Pls be civil and respectful, keep in mind that you might be good at something, and the other fellow at something else. We all need to join hands and move forward.

Let bygones be bygones.

Can I trust you all to be nice good productive members?

Thank You!

@Signalian @Mastankhan @!eon
 

PewPew

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Mastan shaib I previously shared many media reports about M2K, it not us who rejected it, it was French who refused to sale on the excuse of our financial conditions, while they had no issue of selling the submarine during the same time in the same financial conditions, does it ring the bell .... ?

I would request you to plz check the timelines when Indian Air force float the tender of MRCA (which latter converted to MMRCA) date and refusal of Mirage-2K sales to PAF by France and when you are at it plz do check what French were offering in MRCA tender with an offer to shift manufacturing line to India then cast blame on PAF
You're right. The first attempt at the M2K was actually tied to BCCI Bank being the PAF's co-sign or guarantor (it was a big reason why buying arms was easy on the 1960s and 1970s). But the US took our bank down and the program got delayed with now the PAF solely at the discretion of French EXIM loans.

The Agosta 90B bid got through (for credit) as it was 3X smaller in financial scope than the M2K.

Remember, this is 1994-1996, the PAF actually did give up on the F-16s and was prepared to pivot to the M2K. The 32 jets at $3.2 b in 1990s money was A LOT in value, suggesting that we booked a d-level MRO site, M53 MRO, strike capability upgrades (as M2K was solely A2A until -5 came), and missiles.

The PAF was also working with South Africa on SOWs, and the intent was more to arm the M2Ks than solely the older Mirages.

The crux for France was ensuring we could pay, and a big part of that was a good downpayment. And, as conveniently as ever, the US refused to release the $600 m (in 1990s money, so around $1 b today) it kept for the F-16s.

The PAF's mistake was in the early 1980s. It should have taken the M2K and, if US aid came, took the F-16s as a bonus on aid (but pay cash for the M2K).

The story here is that the US really worked hard to screw Pakistan's defence capabilities. And since the debacle of the 8 F-16s, the PAF (or PA) aren't going to pay a dime of their own to the US unless it is necessary (e.g. upgrading old F-16s).

But due to the shifty nature of the West it also wouldn't surprise me if the PAF is prioritizing Azm, even at the cost of procurements in the present (aside from JF-17). In fact, with Azm, they're also clearly suspicious of the Chinese; they want to get their own fighter, turnkey.

This mentality has its downside; we wait longer, we don't get to posture with the Indians when they buy, etc. But the Chinese went through it, and look where they are today.

The key is building minimum deterrence with what you already have. The Chinese went hard on the F-7 and, when available, a limited no. of basic Su-27s (a good jet, but nowhere near the electronic value of the F/A-18C/D the USN was fielding).

Focus on the nukes, BMs, cruise missiles, and as much assymmetrical warfare as possible, and in turn improve JF-17 and work on Azm.

If we take Azm seriously we could actually create high value economic inputs (e.g. gas turbines, composites, electronics, etc) and solve our fiscal limits and break free of overseas reliance at the same time.
 

HRK

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On the face value France simply refuse to extend loan facility for M2K in 1997 or 1998 during NS government tenure forgetting the exact year now, but the actual reason was they were interested in Indian MRCA tender and was making offer to transfer manufacturing line to India.

During 2000 while Mushraf was in power when we again enquired about M2K they again refused to sale on the ground that its manufacturing line has ended and forced us to buy non AESA version of Rafale on such a high price that it was a daytime robbery.
 

PewPew

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On the face value France simply refuse to extend loan facility for M2K in 1997 or 1998 during NS government tenure forgetting the exact year now, but the actual reason was they were interested in Indian MRCA tender and was making offer to transfer manufacturing line to India.

During 2000 while Mushraf was in power when we again enquired about M2K they again refused to sale on the ground that its manufacturing line has ended and forced us to buy non AESA version of Rafale on such a high price that it was a daytime robbery.
When US aid was in full swing (esp. the economic aid, which inflated our stature a bit), the PAF listed plans for 55 Block-52 and 24 "Plus One" jets.

The "Plus One" came down to the Typhoon T1 and FC-20. Alenia (now under Leonardo) was pitching the T1 as a joint buy with Turkey. When Turkey opted for the F-35 and the T2 costing much, much more than the T1 (itself a minor improvement to the Block 52), the PAF opted for FC-20.

They also looked at the FC-20 as a strike fighter that can leverage the F-16s' good A2A.

All said, the economy and shifty Western actions totaled the PAF's efforts on multiple occasions.

And there's no equivalence to what the PN is doing vs the PAF; the procurement and support costs of a MILGEM is equivalent to just 2 Typhoons, at most (more like 1.5).

The PAF is now a more expensive branch than the PN. Thus, to ensure it never ends up in this situation again, it's opting to develop a high end fighter in house.

And it might not be alone. We might not be too thrilled with the Chinese right now, but Brazil, Ukraine and South Africa all have similar issues to us right now. They understand the two-faced foreign relations of the West and increasingly high costs.

Ukraine wants to rebuild its air force, and it ain't going to do it on trainers. Yet they have great gas turbine and turbofan engine knowledge, and the PAF needs that independent knowledge for Azm.

Brazil understands aircraft supply chain dynamics really well (Embraer), and Saab is rumoured to be there giving tips on next gen tech.

South Africa is a well known quantity, but they tried making a high end jet in the Carver. They know how risky it is (and have knowledge on setting up design and testing infrastructure, plus tech demo experience via Rooivalk).

IMO the big powers took advantage of us and our desperation for too long. It's time to cast a middle finger and go it on our own; we're already alone in reality, but we don't have our mindset there yet.
 

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