Pakistan to possibly get F16 -Blk70/72 | Page 27 | World Defense

Pakistan to possibly get F16 -Blk70/72

Khafee

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
9,267
Reactions
12,909 437
You look at 71 war---PIA pilot says gun boats being pulled behind a ship---. The pakistani base commander does not have the courage to launch a recon mission to see what it is---calls his boss---the air chief---who refuses to oblige---pak naval shipyard and fuel tanks are decimated---.
This is the fundamental difference in Western training and Soviet training. The degree of independence a sector commander, or an officer holds.

At the end of the day, people need to ask, what do such rigid rules achieve?

So---this Atlantique and navy aircraft wants to take off for recce mission---they are advised not to---but it still does---.

On seeing the navy aircraft is vulnerable---the Paf does nothing---does not launch a shadow aircraft of their own to track the Atlantique---.
Given the nature of your neighbour, one would think that the PAF would have a lot more common sense.

For this very reason---the US marines have called the USAF traitors---they faced the same problems---so they created their own air force---so that the marines don't have to depend on the air support---.
IMO, BEFORE a unit heads out it should make sure that CAS is in place, it might NOT need it, but its better to insure that should the need arise, the asset is in place. After all not everyone can afford a separate air wing.

PN desperately needs a "Strike Air Wing" and the way its procurements are progressing IA +/-3yrs it will have one.


Aftermath of Kargil war---pak army had shot down 2 aircraft on pakistan's side---and mutliple aircraft on the indian side thru SA missiles---( the indian air chief recently claimed he was shot down during Kargil war---and no one raised an eye brow from pakistan's side---that what aircraft was he flying )---
Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief, Dhanoa is also a MiG-21 pilot and had flown the planes during the 1999 Kargil war while commanding the 17 Squadron, during the war.

 

IbnAbdullah

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
35
Reactions
74 1
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Salaam

Neither are they going for any Chinese Twins, which is a pity.

Reminds of this quote attributed to Groucho Marx: I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.

Maybe PAF only considers Air craft that are hard to get.
 

PewPew

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
102
Reactions
315 8
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
This is the fundamental difference in Western training and Soviet training. The degree of independence a sector commander, or an officer holds.

At the end of the day, people need to ask, what do such rigid rules achieve?


Given the nature of your neighbour, one would think that the PAF would have a lot more common sense.


IMO, BEFORE a unit heads out it should make sure that CAS is in place, it might NOT need it, but its better to insure that should the need arise, the asset is in place. After all not everyone can afford a separate air wing.

PN desperately needs a "Strike Air Wing" and the way its procurements are progressing IA +/-3yrs it will have one.




Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief, Dhanoa is also a MiG-21 pilot and had flown the planes during the 1999 Kargil war while commanding the 17 Squadron, during the war.

IMO the PN should fund the development of a carrier borne version of Project Azm.

Why stop at just two land based squadrons? It's time to make use of China's economies of scale and save up for an aircraft carrier post-2030.

If you're to develop a twin engine 5th-gen fighter, then let's go all the way and get maximum utility from such a design. In addition, re-use the 5th gen tech to develop unmanned strike aircraft too.

Coupled with mass-produced Jinnah class frigates that, in the long run could potentially take on a long-range SAM, guarding a carrier is doable. The PN can create a ring from Karachi to Gwadar to Somalia (and secure our uranium needs from Somalia too).
 

HRK

THINK TANK
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Messages
175
Reactions
473 27
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
sir g i am ignorant but i heard that we have to replace 250 jet till 2015./
there was a plan for jf 17 from day one.
it was for the replacement of of f6 and f7 .
why did we go again for f 16 when we knew that they would sanction our jets any time .

i was talking about third platform to meet the numbers and counter US influence . we had wasted almost two decades.
From Rafael to EF to J 10 and still we are struggling .
i was not talking about defensive gadgets . i was talking about fighter jets to meet the num and to counter Americqn influence.
i am ignorant but am always open to learn.
First of all ignorant remarks and ignorant person are two different things not necessarily both have relations in every case some informed person make ignorant remakes in s feild not related to them, so note I termed your post as ignorant not to you as a person

Now come your this post in which you have raised 3 basic queries
1- Why we have not inducted any third type?
2- Why we inducted F-16?
3- Why JF-17 production is slow?

Now for the first question recall the state in which PAF was during 90s and in the mid of 2000s

We were flying second generation F-6 and F-7 as interceptors, A-5 as ground attack, fleet of F-16 was almost grounded, Mirage jets were the mainstay platform and all of the fleet was not capable to conduct night operations

PAF had no network centric warfare strategy, had no data link or early waring platforms it was basically a SECOND GENERATION air force during that time period

Above is just a glimpse of the state PAF was suffering during that period but on political grounds no one was ready to sale us any platform including USA till 2005, who explicitly rejected the request of F-16 sales in earlier visit Musharaf to America

Sweden refused to sales us Gripen jets as per its state policy of not selling offensive weapons to nondemocratic countries.

Rafale was offered at exorbitant price of around ~120 to ~150 million during that time (before 2005) keep in mind those Rafale jets were non AESA version, just to remind you Farance is currently selling AESA version of Rafale to India in the same price.

Now on financial side Pakistan after 2001went for rescheduling of its national debt with Paris club which gave Pakistan some fiscal space but sizable fiscal deficit was still in existence

Now as above I have given you the back ground of technical, political and fiscial issues Pakistan as a whole and PAF as an organization was facing before 2005, therefore now you can understand that PAF as an oganization was not in position to absorb those 4+ generation jets in PAF before to upgrade itself completely it is because of this reason you see PAF invested fortune in Radar network, C4ISR, EARLY WARNING and AESA platforms, its was actually not a transition but a long jump to be a 4 gen air force from the 2 gen air force

Last point on financial constrains before to address your points about J-10 and F-16

Its is believed by many that PAF donated the funds for acquisition of fighter jets for the rehabilitation of earthquake victim. This is the false propagation of events of the past as NO FUNDS WERE AVAILABLE FOR FIGHTER JET ACQUISITION TILL THAT TIME for this official records can be checked by anyone who is interested

US gave approval for the sales of F-16 just few days before the Oct-2005 Earthquake, and government of had to allocate funds to place the orders and anyone who have rudimentary knowledge of finance knows that all the funds are not allocated or transfer in one go but in installments and till the time of earthquake no allocation even for the advance was allocated by Government of Pakistan so there is no question to blame PAF in this regards

Now in reply to your question about induction of F-16 at that time, I would say it was the only platform which was available under realistic financial conditions and absorbable by PAF into its fleet with simultaneous upgraded of PAF infrastructure, here again recall that Rafale was offered at ~$120 to ~$150 million without AESA radar which offered no valuable advantage over F-16 blk52+ at that time

In addition to this Typhoon was not on offer during 2001-2005, and I have already commented about Gripen fighter jet in this post

For J-10 listen recent interview of deputy chief AVM Shahid Lateef he said it was found short in performance on 50 different parameters, later version J-10B was similar in performance to JF-17 blk-II

Now your last query in regards of JF-17 production it was indeed slow in Zardari government due to many factors such as finance, less number trained manpower to work on the project, infrastructure was in development but 16 jets per year for PAF is normal rate of production
 

PewPew

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
102
Reactions
315 8
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
First of all ignorant remarks and ignorant person are two different things not necessarily both have relations in every case some informed person make ignorant remakes in s feild not related to them, so note I termed your post as ignorant not to you as a person

Now come your this post in which you have raised 3 basic queries
1- Why we have not inducted any third type?
2- Why we inducted F-16?
3- Why JF-17 production is slow?

Now for the first question recall the state in which PAF was during 90s and in the mid of 2000s

We were flying second generation F-6 and F-7 as interceptors, A-5 as ground attack, fleet of F-16 was almost grounded, Mirage jets were the mainstay platform and all of the fleet was not capable to conduct night operations

PAF had no network centric warfare strategy, had no data link or early waring platforms it was basically a SECOND GENERATION air force during that time period

Above is just a glimpse of the state PAF was suffering during that period but on political grounds no one was ready to sale us any platform including USA till 2005, who explicitly rejected the request of F-16 sales in earlier visit Musharaf to America

Sweden refused to sales us Gripen jets as per its state policy of not selling offensive weapons to nondemocratic countries.

Rafale was offered at exorbitant price of around ~120 to ~150 million during that time (before 2005) keep in mind those Rafale jets were non AESA version, just to remind you Farance is currently selling AESA version of Rafale to India in the same price.

Now on financial side Pakistan after 2001went for rescheduling of its national debt with Paris club which gave Pakistan some fiscal space but sizable fiscal deficit was still in existence

Now as above I have given you the back ground of technical, political and fiscial issues Pakistan as a whole and PAF as an organization was facing before 2005, therefore now you can understand that PAF as an oganization was not in position to absorb those 4+ generation jets in PAF before to upgrade itself completely it is because of this reason you see PAF invested fortune in Radar network, C4ISR, EARLY WARNING and AESA platforms, its was actually not a transition but a long jump to be a 4 gen air force from the 2 gen air force

Last point on financial constrains before to address your points about J-10 and F-16

Its is believed by many that PAF donated the funds for acquisition of fighter jets for the rehabilitation of earthquake victim. This is the false propagation of events of the past as NO FUNDS WERE AVAILABLE FOR FIGHTER JET ACQUISITION TILL THAT TIME for this official records can be checked by anyone who is interested

US gave approval for the sales of F-16 just few days before the Oct-2005 Earthquake, and government of had to allocate funds to place the orders and anyone who have rudimentary knowledge of finance knows that all the funds are not allocated or transfer in one go but in installments and till the time of earthquake no allocation even for the advance was allocated by Government of Pakistan so there is no question to blame PAF in this regards

Now in reply to your question about induction of F-16 at that time, I would say it was the only platform which was available under realistic financial conditions and absorbable by PAF into its fleet with simultaneous upgraded of PAF infrastructure, here again recall that Rafale was offered at ~$120 to ~$150 million without AESA radar which offered no valuable advantage over F-16 blk52+ at that time

In addition to this Typhoon was not on offer during 2001-2005, and I have already commented about Gripen fighter jet in this post

For J-10 listen recent interview of deputy chief AVM Shahid Lateef he said it was found short in performance on 50 different parameters, later version J-10B was similar in performance to JF-17 blk-II

Now your last query in regards of JF-17 production it was indeed slow in Zardari government due to many factors such as finance, less number trained manpower to work on the project, infrastructure was in development but 16 jets per year for PAF is normal rate of production
The Typhoon and Rafale were looked at for the PAF's 'Plus-One' requirement, but didn't offer much beyond the Block-52. So they selected the cheaper FC-20, which in turn was supposed to take on a more strike oriented role (while Block-52/MLUs offered top cover).
 

Mastankhan

THINK TANK
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
388
Reactions
1,508 41
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
Hi,

Nation don't allow you to test their aircraft for purchase without showing them your source of funding---.

Gen Msuharraf himself has stated on record that we were going with cash in hand an no one will sell us---.

I understand---Swedes are different---you already knew they won't sell you---but why did he not make F16's a part of the deal after he signed with the US---. Why did the Paf not intervene.

The Paf readily gave up its air bases but did not fight hard enough to get the F16's---. It is not believable---.

If the US Pres could declare war on the Taliban---he could also get the relief on the F16's as well.

What happened with the PAF heirarchy was---that it never saw a surge in numbers of F16's would bring india to sign the peace deal----or if Paf had signed the Rafales---same would have happened---.

Paf heirarchy never had the BRAINS to attach higher number of 4th gen aircraft to making peace---.

The Paf heirarchy just remained in the mindset of defending the nation's skies---.
 
Last edited:

Mastankhan

THINK TANK
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
388
Reactions
1,508 41
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
Last rumour I heard about EF is that UK (or Italy , country of origin was not mentioned) was demanding euro 60 million for each block-1 Typhoons spares and some armaments were part of the package, but deal fell through for some reason, my guess in this regard is that the upgrade package was expensive and was not included in 60 million EUR price so overall it was an expansive deal.

For Su-35 Russians did not entertain our request to integrate it with AESA Radar for some unknown reason and were also resisting to integrate Chinese and Pakistani weapon package which PAF already have in its inventory

I can not confirm or deny these rumors but if these are true than we are left only with JF-17 option

One option for which many of us were enthusiasts about was the J-10CE (export model) but it appears that it is J-10B with AESA so in other words in reality its J-10B+ as it is reported PLAF is still reluctant to grant permission for the export of J-10C additionally other than weapon pay load on the same number of hard points as JF-17 the J-10CE does not offer combat radius better than JF-17
Hi

In the late 80’s there was a lots of unrest in interior sindh. Gangs of armed thieves pillaging villages.

Land owners / villagers went and bought Ak47’s from Bara area. Take a wild guess what they paid for each to protect their familes——-Rs80000—-90000
$4000 to 6000 per AK
where the cost of new AK47 was maybe $150 a rifle.

That shows you that pakistanis would rather screw their motherland but when it comes to protecting their familes, price is never a question.
 
Last edited:

Khafee

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
9,267
Reactions
12,909 437
The Paf heirarchy just remained in the mindset of defending the nation's skies---.
This tells me their Doctrine needs to change. Can they do this, or will GoP have to step in?
 

IbnAbdullah

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
35
Reactions
74 1
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Salaam

This tells me their Doctrine needs to change. Can they do this, or will GoP have to step in?
I think the strategies they develop are towards the goals that are decided. If one hears most of the military and political people talk about these things - they focus on defence of whatever we have. I suppose maybe that is the only option or maybe not.

My guess is that 1971 really did a number on our people. The current military leadership joined around that time and I think that may have had an affect on their attitude. It likely made them a lot more cautious.

I can understand as well, because they saw Pakistan lose East Pakistan and I cannot even imagine the nightmares the military leadership would have about losing more land to them. That's why I understand when I see them always talk about being ready to fight off any invasion by India even though from our traditional claim, it should be us who attacks. The Indians are always willing to make the LOC the IB.

However, if we were to decide that not only do we want to defend the bit that we have but also work towards taking back Kashmir - which would be a long term term strategy - maybe we'd see a change in the mind set as well.
 

PewPew

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
102
Reactions
315 8
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
This tells me their Doctrine needs to change. Can they do this, or will GoP have to step in?
You need a hawkish political leadership, one with a lot more weight than any general or air marshal. So a PM who says, 'if you walk for peace, we'll run' isn't going to cause a shift in doctrine. For all his issues, you can credit ZAB for at least being a hawk, but he picked fights at the wrong time (Op Gibralter should've been during the Indo-Sino War, giy should've shut up about the 1970/71 election results, etc)
 

Mastankhan

THINK TANK
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
388
Reactions
1,508 41
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
@Khafee an air chief must not and cannot determine how the nation needs ti act. It is not the job of air chief to make that call.

The problem with pakistani civilians is that they are illiterate in matters of war and power positioning. You will hardly see anyone capable to talk and take a stand.
 

Khafee

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
9,267
Reactions
12,909 437
You need a hawkish political leadership, one with a lot more weight than any general or air marshal. So a PM who says, 'if you walk for peace, we'll run' isn't going to cause a shift in doctrine. For all his issues, you can credit ZAB for at least being a hawk, but he picked fights at the wrong time (Op Gibralter should've been during the Indo-Sino War, giy should've shut up about the 1970/71 election results, etc)
@Khafee an air chief must not and cannot determine how the nation needs ti act. It is not the job of air chief to make that call.

The problem with pakistani civilians is that they are illiterate in matters of war and power positioning. You will hardly see anyone capable to talk and take a stand.
This current lot, which is supposedly better then the last two - IF PAF were to ask for another 70 4th gen a/c's they would go nuts. Truly upsetting.
 

Mingle

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
667
Reactions
997 2
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
This current lot, which is supposedly better then the last two - IF PAF were to ask for another 70 4th gen a/c's they would go nuts. Truly upsetting.
@Khafee any news U expect from China in term of hardware read Navy and Airforce has priority in current trip to China?
 

Similar threads


Top