Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

[Mastankhan]

Hi,

The purpose of a major weapon is to bring the enemy to the peace table---that is what was not taught at the Pakistani Air Force academy or to its officers---.

It is the TIMING of the purchase that makes the difference---and many a pakistanis don't have any clue to what that means---.

TIMING___TIMING___TIMING---it is all about the timing---. It is like thinking of throwing a punch after losing the war---.

If we got 150 aircraft in 20 years---they replaced most of our old aircraft---in that same time---the enemy ADDED 150 +++ 4 gen aircraft to its already advanced fleet.

The strategy would have been to get 50 - 80 aircraft right after 9 / 11---and that did not occur.

Once the enemy saw our weak condition and walked away from the peace table---the effects of ETHER had worn off on the enemy---.

After 9/11---india was scared sh-itless---it knew pakistan would find weapons and make war---for that reason they staged the 2002 parliament attack---.

When that did not work---they came up with peace overtures---so very close to finalizing and signing the dotted line---.

Then came the earthquake---Paf chief decided to donate the funds for weapons to EQ relief assuming that Hindus would be signing the peace treaty---so no need for modern weapons---.

Then---when asked later why they are not getting new aircraft---these PAF idiots claim it on public platform---they don't have funds---they donated it for EQ relief---.

How do these duffers get promoted to become air chief marshalls of a nations air force--?

If we had spent 5-7-10 Billion dollars to get the much needed aircraft in 2003-03-04---the peace deal would have been signed---and we would have recovered those billions in the form of development thru peaceful economic conditions---.

That would have been the best spent 10 Billion dollars by pakistan---.

 

[PewPew]

Hi,

The purpose of a major weapon is to bring the enemy to the peace table---that is what was not taught at the Pakistani Air Force academy or to its officers---.

It is the TIMING of the purchase that makes the difference---and many a pakistanis don't have any clue to what that means---.

TIMING___TIMING___TIMING---it is all about the timing---. It is like thinking of throwing a punch after losing the war---.

If we got 150 aircraft in 20 years---they replaced most of our old aircraft---in that same time---the enemy ADDED 150 +++ 4 gen aircraft to its already advanced fleet.

The strategy would have been to get 50 - 80 aircraft right after 9 / 11---and that did not occur.

Once the enemy saw our weak condition and walked away from the peace table---the effects of ETHER had worn off on the enemy---.

After 9/11---india was scared sh-itless---it knew pakistan would find weapons and make war---for that reason they staged the 2002 parliament attack---.

When that did not work---they came up with peace overtures---so very close to finalizing and signing the dotted line---.

Then came the earthquake---Paf chief decided to donate the funds for weapons to EQ relief assuming that Hindus would be signing the peace treaty---so no need for modern weapons---.

Then---when asked later why they are not getting new aircraft---these PAF idiots claim it on public platform---they don't have funds---they donated it for EQ relief---.

How do these duffers get promoted to become air chief marshalls of a nations air force--?

If we had spent 5-7-10 Billion dollars to get the much needed aircraft in 2003-03-04---the peace deal would have been signed---and we would have recovered those billions in the form of development thru peaceful economic conditions---.

That would have been the best spent 10 Billion dollars by pakistan---.

Imagine the impact of locally built Mirage F-1s with RD-33 turbofan engines back in 1999 ... and that too with South Africa's R-Darter, H-2/H-4, and Torgos/MUPSOW ALCM. On top of that, we could have also asked South Africa to upgrade our Mirages to the Cheetah standard in the 1980s and 1990s. Top it off with small batch purchases of Mirage 2000s (instead of F-16s), and things would have been very, very different.

The natural course was probably the above, and had it occurred, we'd have 300 reasonably good fighters by 1999, and would be in no rush with indigenous fighter programs. If anything, with the upgraded Mirage F-1 and Cheetah, plus steady supply of Mirage 2000s, we could've started Project Azm in 1999. In fact, we could've had steady French expertise help with said project.

Our problem in Pakistan is that we're not led by independent hawks, but either bleeding hearts or uncles and aunties. We don't award the hawkish mentality that the likes of Netanyahu, Modi, or Trump show.

 

[Mastankhan]

Imagine the impact of locally built Mirage F-1s with RD-33 turbofan engines back in 1999 ... and that too with South Africa's R-Darter, H-2/H-4, and Torgos/MUPSOW ALCM. On top of that, we could have also asked South Africa to upgrade our Mirages to the Cheetah standard in the 1980s and 1990s. Top it off with small batch purchases of Mirage 2000s (instead of F-16s), and things would have been very, very different.

The natural course was probably the above, and had it occurred, we'd have 300 reasonably good fighters by 1999, and would be in no rush with indigenous fighter programs. If anything, with the upgraded Mirage F-1 and Cheetah, plus steady supply of Mirage 2000s, we could've started Project Azm in 1999. In fact, we could've had steady French expertise help with said project.

Our problem in Pakistan is that we're not led by independent hawks, but either bleeding hearts or uncles and aunties. We don't award the hawkish mentality that the likes of Netanyahu, Modi, or Trump show.

Hi,

Thank you---. One honest officer of the Paf created a debacle in the 90's and we are left to face the consequences---.

Being honest should never be the ultimate in finding the right person for the job---.

I would rather have a nationalistic Ras-cal in position for a critical job---.

 

[Khafee]

Last rumour I heard about EF is that UK (or Italy , country of origin was not mentioned) was demanding euro 60 million for each block-1 Typhoons spares and some armaments were part of the package, but deal fell through for some reason, my guess in this regard is that the upgrade package was expensive and was not included in 60 million EUR price so overall it was an expansive deal.

For Su-35 Russians did not entertain our request to integrate it with AESA Radar for some unknown reason and were also resisting to integrate Chinese and Pakistani weapon package which PAF already have in its inventory

I can not confirm or deny these rumors but if these are true than we are left only with JF-17 option

One option for which many of us were enthusiasts about was the J-10CE (export model) but it appears that it is J-10B with AESA so in other words in reality its J-10B+ as it is reported PLAF is still reluctant to grant permission for the export of J-10C additionally other than weapon pay load on the same number of hard points as JF-17 the J-10CE does not offer combat radius better than JF-17

You seem to be baiting me

 

[Mingle]

You seem to be baiting me

We expect anything end of this yr or we gonna see action next year?

 

[Khafee]

We expect anything end of this yr or we gonna see action next year?

I really cant say.

 

[Mingle]

I really cant say.

Vision 20/20 then

 

[PewPew]

Hi,

Thank you---. One honest officer of the Paf created a debacle in the 90's and we are left to face the consequences---.

Being honest should never be the ultimate in finding the right person for the job---.

I would rather have a nationalistic Ras-cal in position for a critical job---.

I'd say, we need integrity in character, but hawkish aggression in policy goals. So, in the case of the earthquake it would have been, "it's a tough loss for the nation, but we're not going to compromise on national security -- we will get the fighters," or in the case of the M2K, ask Dassault, "do tell us who is asking for the bribe," and after signing the deal, deal with the corrupt individual (by showing all of the proof necessary to indict them in court and throw them in jail).

Besides lacking hawkish aggression, we're also not very smart, or we lack a lot of creativity when dealing with various situations.

 

[Khafee]

I'd say, we need integrity in character, but hawkish aggression in policy goals. So, in the case of the earthquake it would have been, "it's a tough loss for the nation, but we're not going to compromise on national security -- we will get the fighters," or in the case of the M2K, ask Dassault, "do tell us who is asking for the bribe," and after signing the deal, deal with the corrupt individual (by showing all of the proof necessary to indict them in court and throw them in jail).

Very well said!

 

[Mastankhan]

I'd say, we need integrity in character, but hawkish aggression in policy goals. So, in the case of the earthquake it would have been, "it's a tough loss for the nation, but we're not going to compromise on national security -- we will get the fighters," or in the case of the M2K, ask Dassault, "do tell us who is asking for the bribe," and after signing the deal, deal with the corrupt individual (by showing all of the proof necessary to indict them in court and throw them in jail).

Besides lacking hawkish aggression, we're also not very smart, or we lack a lot of creativity when dealing with various situations.

Hi,

The truth about people comes out---when sh-it hits the fan---

AVM Haseeb Piracha---what a strut he had in his stride---but when the time came to 'pull the trigger'---all that bravado fizzled out---.

My house in multan is next to the airport next to the old rifle range--. One day my neighbor comes over and tell me that there was a tank crossing excercize across the river close to MuzaffarGarh---tanks were using a snorkel device---.

One of the tanks got stuck in the mud and requested to be pulled out---.

The tank had enough air coming in and enough food and water---but the tank commander panicked---open the hatch with immense struggle and popped out of the water---the other 3 crew drowned---.

The officer was a Lt. Col rank---and had a nick name of BULL DOG amongst his colleagues for showing aggressive behavior all the time---that SOB murdered 3 troops in the tank---because when the time came to lead---his pants were wet from the yellow streaks---.

For the last 50 years the only thing that I have heard from the Paf officers is how good their training is and how good they know to fly---and I to this day never doubt that---.

But tragedy is that to hide their incompetence---they have misaligned the public---they have spread hate against the US for sanctions----the sanctions that the Paf was told were coming---picking up the wrong aircraft---then showing no urgency in going for the second best or the third best---.

Such a lackadaisical effort for such an important task---.

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

The truth about people comes out---when sh-it hits the fan---

AVM Haseeb Piracha---what a strut he had in his stride---but when the time came to 'pull the trigger'---all that bravado fizzled out---.

My house in multan is next to the airport next to the old rifle range--. One day my neighbor comes over and tell me that there was a tank crossing excercize across the river close to MuzaffarGarh---tanks were using a snorkel device---.

One of the tanks got stuck in the mud and requested to be pulled out---.

The tank had enough air coming in and enough food and water---but the tank commander panicked---open the hatch with immense struggle and popped out of the water---the other 3 crew drowned---.

The officer was a Lt. Col rank---and had a nick name of BULL DOG amongst his colleagues for showing aggressive behavior all the time---that SOB murdered 3 troops in the tank---because when the time came to lead---his pants were wet from the yellow steaks---.

For the last 50 years the only thing that I have heard from the Paf officers is how good their training is and how good they know to fly---and I to this day never doubt that---.

But tragedy is that to hide their incompetence---they have misaligned the public---they have spread hate against the US for sanctions----the sanctions that the Paf was told were coming---picking up the wrong aircraft---then showing no urgency in going for the second best or the third best---.

Such a lackadaisical effort for such an important task---.

Few men can stand up against the system, most prefer NOT to rock the boat, take their pension + plots and go home.

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian In a parallel world you beautifully outlined how a strong PAF would have helped PA & PN, can you repeat that statement here?

Would appreciate it.

During any phase of ground assault on enemy positions, own ground forces are supported by artillery as well as air support. Artillery is used for suppressing enemy so own infantry can reach as close possible as possible to enemy positions without taking enemy fire and get enemy within range of small arms fire including assault rifle, LMG, RPG etc. This also ensures that own infantry can assault enemy positions from multiple directions without getting detected. Pakistan's Artillery arsenal is adequate for fire support and its very very effective. But Artillery has its limitations since artillery has difficulty taking out moving targets, at rare occasions it cannot achieve required trajectory etc. Due to experience In past wars, PA shifted Mortar batteries into Infantry battalion's weapons platoon. This gives much needed indirect fire to infantry assaulting enemy positions using 81 mm or 120 mm mortars in some cases.

Strikes by Aircrafts are extremely effective, much more than effectiveness of artillery at times. They have longer range than artillery, they can carry different types of missiles or bombs, they can undertake different types of missions like interdiction, strategic strike, tactical bombing etc. I can give an example from 1965 war between Pakistan and India. PAF F-86 Sabre flew into Indian airspace and targeted an Indian Army reinforcement convoy heading towards Lahore sector. PA ground forces which were out numbered near BRB canal dug in and prepared a defensive line against IA attacks. Had these Indian reinforcements reached Lahore sector, history would have been changed. This is something Artillery cannot do. Then the specialized weaponry that aircrafts carry, like missiles and bombs, are used to target different kinds of weapons. Bombs are used to target enemy positions, ammo/fuel dumps, bridges etc. Strafing with 23 mm or 30 mm on lightly armored vehicles like trucks can reduce convoys to dust within minutes where as missiles can take out enemy moving targets like MBTs, IFVs, SP Arty, SP AD as well as prove useful in DEAD Ops after which Gunships can be sent in to mop op enemy armor.

Mirage-V can carry all sorts of bombs and missiles, long range- short range, its a perfect aircraft for any type of ground strike operations. F-16s are tier-1 fighters, so their availability is skeptical for PA, but they carry a very important missile - AGM 65 - which A-10 in USAF uses effectively against Enemy Armor like MBT/IFV/APC etc. If im not wrong, an F-16 can carry 6 x AGM 65 per sortie. PAF could have kept flying A-5 and seconded it to squadrons supporting PA in strike roles, since its difficult to spare Mirage-V and F-16 for PA operations.

Feb 27th 2019, PAF sent in Mirage-V strike aircraft to drop bombs near an enemy Brigade HQ. This feat couldn't have been achieved by PA Artillery if it was tasked to take out an enemy Brigade HQ. In Military, If a Brigade HQ is lost along with its staff, the coordination between Battalions and Division is affected. Brigade Commander is not the only POC, the G-1 Staff officer attached from Div HQ and most importantly Brigade Major and Brigade's G-3 Staff officer who are coordinating with battalions are lost. The Divisional Colonel Staff will have a hell of a time reaching all battalions for report and progress. Basically the load will be shifted on to Divisional HQ, which will already be handling 3-4 other Brigades. This is the reason PAF decided to strike near Brigade HQ, to let India know that Pakistan is capable of taking out critical staff in Indian Ranks who are responsible for operations from Indian side on LOC. Obviously, PA would have requested PAF to vector in on IA Bde HQ, to send this message across the border.

Simply put, PAF sending in aircrafts for ground strikes on enemy positions saves lives of PA soldiers on the ground, it also minimizes the time and effort taken to capture a position. This is what Blitzkrieg was all about - Stukas and Panzers. Gulf wars are examples. For an Infantry soldier, there is an effect of morale when friendly aircraft show up in the sky. There is an effect on morale seeing MBTs as well as Commandos showing up on battlefield for an infantry soldier, but when the aircrafts arrive, the theater commander as well the ordinary soldier knows that the task has been made easy, these aircrafts will bomb the hell out of enemy and pave the way for advance. In 1971 war in East Pakistan, SSG was sent everywhere with PA Infantry, because of morale boosting, but the lone squadron of PAF could not do much to blunt IAF attacks neither proved effective in combat.

Regarding Navy, PN is very small compared to mammoth sized IN. Its very difficult for IN to conduct offensive operations in Indian waters. yes submarines is an option for PN, due to their stealthy nature of remaining submerged, but IN has acquired submarine hunting aircrafts like P-8 which can pose a threat to PN subs. To bolster PN's strike capability as well as giving PN a chance to stand against IN in the event of war - PAF's air support is extremely important. IN has acquired Naval Mig-29's and it will be supported by SU30MKI and Rafale in future. India knows it has edge in Navy, so IN will exploit it fully. This is where 12 x Mirage V of PAF's 8th Squadron are found out numbered. Exocet is an excellent missile but Mirage-V will need to operate under air cover - so will ATR-72 and P3-C Orions. 2nd Squadron of PAF comprising of JF-17 will support PN in Naval operations, but its classified as MR (Multi Role) Squadron, which means its role can be shifted from Maritime Operations to AD or AS even., leaving behind 8th Squadron as dedicated Naval support squadron.

 

[Mastankhan]

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe, that during the Mushy years PAF should have bought at least 70~80 Blk52's, and a lot of other h/w.

As a front line state on WOT, they sold themselves short.

Hi,

The Paf had america by the ballz---they could have had as many F16's as they wanted---but none had the courage and ballz to make the demand---.

That is where the crux of my main problem with the Paf comes from---.

@Signalian In a parallel world you beautifully outlined how a strong PAF would have helped PA & PN, can you repeat that statement here?

Would appreciate it.

Hi,

But otoh you look at the surge of pakistani tank brigade into india from across sindh border---they had nothing in front other than infantry---. Indians ask for the help of their air force---they come---pak army asks for the help of their air force---Paf refuses---pak tanks are decimated---otherwise---pak armor would have chopped up a major piece of property---.

You look at 71 war---PIA pilot says gun boats being pulled behind a ship---. The pakistani base commander does not have the courage to launch a recon mission to see what it is---calls his boss---the air chief---who refuses to oblige---pak naval shipyard and fuel tanks are decimated---.

Kargil war---the Paf doesn't eveb have tier 1 aircraft that can fight a war---.

Aftermath of Kargil war---pak army had shot down 2 aircraft on pakistan's side---and mutliple aircraft on the indian side thru SA missiles---( the indian air chief recently claimed he was shot down during Kargil war---and no one raised an eye brow from pakistan's side---that what aircraft was he flying )---

So---this Atlantique and navy aircraft wants to take off for recce mission---they are advised not to---but it still does---.

On seeing the navy aircraft is vulnerable---the Paf does nothing---does not launch a shadow aircraft of their own to track the Atlantique---.


For this very reason---the US marines have called the USAF traitors---they faced the same problems---so they created their own air force---so that the marines don't have to depend on the air support---.

 

[maxpane]

also keep in mind US in past has rejected to authorize the sale of 16 Jordanian Air Force F-16 to PAF

sir g i am ignorant but i heard that we have to replace 250 jet till 2015./
there was a plan for jf 17 from day one.
it was for the replacement of of f6 and f7 .
why did we go again for f 16 when we knew that they would sanction our jets any time .

i was talking about third platform to meet the numbers and counter US influence . we had wasted almost two decades.
From Rafael to EF to J 10 and still we are struggling .
i was not talking about defensive gadgets . i was talking about fighter jets to meet the num and to counter Americqn influence.
i am ignorant but am always open to learn.

 

[Khafee]

You look at 71 war---PIA pilot says gun boats being pulled behind a ship---. The pakistani base commander does not have the courage to launch a recon mission to see what it is---calls his boss---the air chief---who refuses to oblige---pak naval shipyard and fuel tanks are decimated---.

This is the fundamental difference in Western training and Soviet training. The degree of independence a sector commander, or an officer holds.

At the end of the day, people need to ask, what do such rigid rules achieve?

So---this Atlantique and navy aircraft wants to take off for recce mission---they are advised not to---but it still does---.

On seeing the navy aircraft is vulnerable---the Paf does nothing---does not launch a shadow aircraft of their own to track the Atlantique---.

Given the nature of your neighbour, one would think that the PAF would have a lot more common sense.

For this very reason---the US marines have called the USAF traitors---they faced the same problems---so they created their own air force---so that the marines don't have to depend on the air support---.

IMO, BEFORE a unit heads out it should make sure that CAS is in place, it might NOT need it, but its better to insure that should the need arise, the asset is in place. After all not everyone can afford a separate air wing.

PN desperately needs a "Strike Air Wing" and the way its procurements are progressing IA +/-3yrs it will have one.

Aftermath of Kargil war---pak army had shot down 2 aircraft on pakistan's side---and mutliple aircraft on the indian side thru SA missiles---( the indian air chief recently claimed he was shot down during Kargil war---and no one raised an eye brow from pakistan's side---that what aircraft was he flying )---

Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief, Dhanoa is also a MiG-21 pilot and had flown the planes during the 1999 Kargil war while commanding the 17 Squadron, during the war.

We both fought Pakistanis and we both ejected : IAF Chief after sortie with Abhinandan Varthaman

Vir Chakra awardee Abhinandan Varthaman, flew a sortie in a MiG-21 Type 69 fighter Aircraft with IAF chief BS Dhanoa.

www.indiatoday.in