Project Azm News & Discussion | World Defense

Project Azm News & Discussion

Armchair

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
456
Reactions
1,572 56
Country
Bangladesh
Location
Bangladesh
Hi,

Although there is a fifth generation thread, I thought Project Azm deserves its own thread. I hope @Khafee would agree and allow this thread. I just didn't feel the title of the thread was the right fit for Project Azm, given how pivotal this development project is.

There are many theories about Project Azm. Let me summarize them here:

Project Azm as J-31 / J-35 Version.
The major supporters of this theory are Bilal Khan of Quwa and Mastan Khan. The belief is that Pakistan will choose a variant of the Chinese 5th generation aircraft, the J-31 for its own Project Azm. The proponents note that Pakistan has severe resource and technical constraints to develop a truly indigenous development.
These proponents are unable to convincingly answer why PAF officials have defined project Azm as a first locally developed design. Their counter that PAF has asked for collaboration doesn't fully make sense - as there can be collaboration on subsystems, wihthout the project losing its characteristic as a clean sheet Pakistani design.

Project Azm as an Clean Sheet Pakistani Design
Myself and others have put forward the view that Project Azm is an indigenous design, noting that if Azm was a J-35 derivative, it would be a step back for Pakistan, and would directly contradict what PAF has said about the project. It would also not make sense to make primary investments, like Aviation city and the various research and development organizations, that just are not needed if Project Azm were a J-35 customized for PAF.

What will Project Azm Look Like?
Assuming Project Azm is a clean sheet design, there are various possibilities for the basic layout and capability level for Project Azm:
1. A J-20 type with twin WS-10 / WS-15 engines and a canard delta
2. A Single WS-10 / WS-15 engine with a delta canard layout
3. A Twin heavy WS-10 / 15 with a conventional layout
4. A single WS-10 / WS-15 engine with conventional layout
5. A twin WS-13 / RD-93 delta canard
6. A single WS-13 / RD-93 delta canard
7. A twin WS-13 / RD-93 conventional layout
8. A single WS-13/ RD-93 conventional layout
9. Something completely different, perhaps like a YF-23, similar to the art found on the PAF C-130 (a YF-23 with canards)

The twin heavy engines are not realistic, as PAF does not have a long range / heavy payload requirement. The single WS-13 / RD-93 are also not realistic, as they would not provide enough thrust for a 5th generation aircraft. This leaves either a single WS-10 / WS-15 engine, or a twin RD-93 / WS-13 engine option, realistically.

Another key problem is the development of an FCS. Some individuals, such as JamD, have suggested that Pakistan does not have the capability or wherewithal to develop an independent FCS. My point of view is that the PAF has the JF-17 FCS. Even if China developed it, the Chinese would not withhold this FCS. Pak would definitely be able to to outsource this FCS from China, giving them adequate compensation.

If Pakistan uses the FCS developed for the JF-17 Block 3, they are limited to a conventional layout option. Meaning, something like a JF-17 / F-16 / F-15. This would also be true if they utilize a Turkish FCS.

This brings our options down to (4) and (7) to most likely option for PAF. Meaning a conventional layout with either a twin RD-93 or a single WS-10 / WS-15.

Now finally, Chak Bamu, another poster on the internet, with a solid track record and some access to the Pakistani R&D community, says he "saw" the Azm. Obviously, there may not actually be a flying prototype right now, so he most likely saw a wind tunnel model. He was clearly able to say that it is in fact a clean sheet design, and not a derivative of the J-35.

Had it been a twin engine conventional layout with RD-93s, the design would have been close / similar to J-35 and would not have allowed Chak Bamu to clearly state that the design was a clean sheet design. The conclusion, therefore, is that the design is in fact, in all probability, a conventional layout with a single WS-10 / WS-15.

The benefit of this layout, if in fact my estimate is correct, is that the engine would be common to the J-10 and J-15s being inducted by PAF currently. Allowing Pakistan the capacity to easily simplify the WS-10 / WS-15 to its overall warfighting strategy.
 

Safri167

MEMBER
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
534
Reactions
1,143 21
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
1. Twin engine
2. WS 10 / RD93MA ( most likely commonality with JF-17 and 400 order) if the news is true.
Conventional ~ J35
Delta canard ~ J20
Can it be a simple delta without canard??
 

Armchair

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
456
Reactions
1,572 56
Country
Bangladesh
Location
Bangladesh
I think you missed the point, focusing on the superficial rather than the meaning. Please do read the OP again, and you will better understand why the image was shared.

Same CGI was used as JF17 Block 3
After that some enthusiastic people claim it to be JF17 stealth Version
Now Project AZM
 

Mastankhan

THINK TANK
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
440
Reactions
1,869 60
Country
Pakistan
Location
USA
An interesting concept art I found on the internet about Project Azm.
View attachment 15364
Credit: https://twitter.com/123jee786
Hi,

A 5th gen aircraft by default of its design---has to be a twin tail aircraft---.

It cannot be a single tail aircraft---.

If Paf wants a single engine aircraft---and a powerful power plant is available---there is nothing wrong with that aircraft---.

Even the J31 would be the right aircraft to be re-designed as a single engine flying machine---.

It would be an easy switch over---rather than twin engine tunnels---a single tunnel can be re-designed with a slightly slender fuselage.
 

Armchair

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
456
Reactions
1,572 56
Country
Bangladesh
Location
Bangladesh
Hi,

A 5th gen aircraft by default of its design---has to be a twin tail aircraft---.

It cannot be a single tail aircraft---.

If Paf wants a single engine aircraft---and a powerful power plant is available---there is nothing wrong with that aircraft---.

Even the J31 would be the right aircraft to be re-designed as a single engine flying machine---.

It would be an easy switch over---rather than twin engine tunnels---a single tunnel can be re-designed with a slightly slender fuselage.
I'm not really focused on the twin or single tailed aspect - just trying to make sense of the broader picture in terms of general size and shape. But good point about twin tails.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
319
Reactions
1,207 51
Country
USA
Location
USA
@TomCat @Wolf-PK @Cookie Monster @Mastankhan thought you guys would like this thread I am attempting to get started.
An interesting concept art I found on the internet about Project Azm.
View attachment 15364
Credit: https://twitter.com/123jee786
Thanks for the tag sir...

First regarding this picture...I'm sure u and others here already know that this is just a CGI...
...some comments I would like to make on this...is that it's probably very far off from what Azm NGF turns out to be.
- If PAF is serious about it being 5th gen(as in stealth is one of the key requirements)...then it's bound to have internal weapons' bays(or at the very least some recessed stations like in PAKFA). So the hanging weapons like shown here...are wrong.
- Next up the single vertical tail...stealth jets are shaped to avoid 90 degree angles...this is why every single stealth aircraft built so far...has canted twin tails.
- Lastly the single engine...if Azm NGF is going to carry the weapons internally...it needs to be large enough...to roughly the size of F35. China(which is most likely where the engine of Azm will come from IMO) doesn't have any engine in the class of the engine used in F35. So it's more likely that Azm NGF will be twin engined.

Now coming to Azm NGF...from what I've read so far. It seems that Azm NGF is a clean sheet design. I'm not sure if in the future Pak may decide to scrap it and go with the Chinese J35(which will have its own pros and cons)...but for now I will assume that Azm NGF is a clean sheet design.
--> According to Chak Bamu...he has seen one of the first iterations. Though I don't know if what he is saying is true...but he is a level headed, no non sense guy who hasn't been known to make tall claims that turn out to be false.
--> There was also tail art on one of PAF's C130...though it looked similar in layout to a J20...but was distinctly a different jet.
--> I vaguely remember messiach madam to have also said that it's a clean sheet design(someone plz verify or correct me)

So all signs point so far to 2 things...
1) Azm NGF is a clean sheet design
2) Pak will mostly likely work with China to develop Azm NGF

Rest is kind of up in the air(more so than those above 2 things).
 
Last edited:

BATMAN

MEMBER
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
972
Reactions
948 16
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Hi @Khafee , Merge these threads...
@Armchair there's interesting information in opening post of below posted thread and as well one CGI.
 
Last edited:

BATMAN

MEMBER
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
972
Reactions
948 16
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
The report said the first “conceptual design phase” cycle for Project AZM is complete,
 

Armchair

MEMBER
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
456
Reactions
1,572 56
Country
Bangladesh
Location
Bangladesh
Hi Cookie Monster,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Want to make a few quick points:

1. Having an internal weapons bay does not mean you cannot have pylons when you need to carry more. F-35 has the same capability, as do all other 5th gen aircraft.

2. Hanging weapons therefore cannot be wrong. If you read the messiach's writings, you will already see she was discussing a decade ago clip on and clip of pylons.

3. Agreed about single vertical tail, that wasn't the point of sharing the CGI image. It was to give context to the point I made on the opening post. Which is also the post for which I tagged you, but you instead seemed to have replied to the CGI rather than the opening post which perhaps you didn't read...

4. The point of sharing the CGI was to show the context I painfully arrived at in the first post - a single engined conventional layout. Yet my friend, you missed the point entirely and wrote me a reply discussing the CGI instead...

Thanks for the tag sir...

First regarding this picture...I'm sure u and others here already know that this is just a CGI...
...some comments I would like to make on this...is that it's probably very far off from what Azm NGF turns out to be.
- If PAF is serious about it being 5th gen(as in stealth is one of the key requirements)...then it's bound to have internal weapons' bays(or at the very least some recessed stations like in PAKFA). So the hanging weapons like shown here...are wrong.
- Next up the single vertical tail...stealth jets are shaped to avoid 90 degree angles...this is why every single stealth aircraft built so far...has canted twin tails.
- Lastly the single engine...if Azm NGF is going to carry the weapons internally...it needs to be large enough...to roughly the size of F35. China(which is most likely where the engine of Azm will come from IMO) doesn't have any engine in the class of the engine used in F35. So it's more likely that Azm NGF will be twin engined.

Now coming to Azm NGF...from what I've read so far. It seems that Azm NGF is a clean sheet design. I'm not sure if in the future Pak may decide to scrap it and go with the Chinese J35(which will have its own pros and cons)...but for now I will assume that Azm NGF is a clean sheet design.
--> According to Chak Bamu...he has seen one of the first iterations. Though I don't know if what he is saying is true...but he is a level headed, no non sense guy who hasn't been known to make tall claims that turn out to be false.
--> There was also tail art on one of PAF's C130...though it looked similar in layout to a J20...but was distinctly a different jet.
--> I vaguely remember messiach madam to have also said that it's a clean sheet design(someone plz verify or correct me)

So all signs point so far to 2 things...
1) Azm NGF is a clean sheet design
2) Pak will mostly likely work with China to develop Azm NGF

Rest is kind of up in the air(more so than those above 2 things).
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2019
Messages
319
Reactions
1,207 51
Country
USA
Location
USA
Hi Cookie Monster,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Want to make a few quick points:

1. Having an internal weapons bay does not mean you cannot have pylons when you need to carry more. F-35 has the same capability, as do all other 5th gen aircraft.
Fully aware of this...but thanks for pointing it out anyways. Maybe this info will be helpful to other readers.
2. Hanging weapons therefore cannot be wrong. If you read the messiach's writings, you will already see she was discussing a decade ago clip on and clip of pylons.
It is not wrong to use weapons hanging from pylons...it depends on the type of mission and the situation on the battlefield. For example if for some reason US is using an F35 in Afghanistan to strike some ground targets...it will be counterproductive to only use internal bays. This would limit the payload being carried...and the advantage gained in stealth by only using internal bays...would be useless since their opponent in Afghanistan doesn't even have SAM systems, ground radars, AWACS, fighter jets, etc.

This was never an argument...the point I was making is that this CGI is far off from whatever shape Azm NGF might take...that's all.
3. Agreed about single vertical tail, that wasn't the point of sharing the CGI image. It was to give context to the point I made on the opening post. Which is also the post for which I tagged you, but you instead seemed to have replied to the CGI rather than the opening post which perhaps you didn't read...
4. The point of sharing the CGI was to show the context I painfully arrived at in the first post - a single engined conventional layout. Yet my friend, you missed the point entirely and wrote me a reply discussing the CGI instead...
I did not miss the original post...it was super late at night...I was supposed to be sleeping...but I couldn't fall asleep for some reason...
...and so as one does...checked my phone...started browsing...saw a notification with ur tag.

U've put a lot of thought into ur post...and it demanded careful reading and a detailed, well thought out response...which I will do once I get a chance inshallah.

Since at that point when I made my post...I couldn't dedicate enough time towards it...I skipped it altogether instead of writing something half baked that didn't make sense or had inaccuracies.

Instead I used that little time...to jot down what I have come to know about Azm NGF thus far(by lurking on this forum and another...and interacting with some members like messiach madam). Explaining that CGI was part of that thought process...to draw some conclusions as to what Azm NGF might be like...and not to criticize anyone. The dissecting of that CGI was more like...trying to establish what Azm NGF might be like...by crossing out a list of things that it's not like...
...if that makes any sense.

I hope that clarifies the context in which my post was written. I meant no offense to u sir g.
 
Last edited:

Top