Lockheed Martin (LM) CSC Type 26 Frigate Design

[GRANNY001]

Perhaps our only downfall would be our Victoria class submarine fleet (depending how you look at it). I will give you a very brief history of our acquisition of these boats. Canada has 4 Victoria class SSK submarines acquired from the British in 1998 (HMCS Victoria, Windsor, Corner Brook & Chicoutimi). At the time it was thought a real bargain to get these boats at $750M for all 4, but has proven to be more of a headache to make them operational in the early years of their commissioning. The last sub brought over, HMCS Chicoutimi, had a fire on board with one officer killed. Things went down hill after that incident, however over the past recent years the Canadian Government announced a complete over-hall of the fleet to make them more relevant to today's threats with state-of-the-art equipment, sensor and weapons upgrades to serve the RCN until at least 2035 before a new submarine can be acquired/built to replace the Victoria class.


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Here is a short video of HMCS Victoria called "A Long Beginning"

 

[Gripen9]

Accidents may happen on any ship. Fire on a ship is a real danger, and should never be taken lightly. Are you saying this CSC frigate, if named that, is doomed? Canadian ships have had enough of fires on our ships. I don't believe in "fairy tales". We should all hope that fires never happen on any ship especially navy ships. But if they do, Canadian sailors train every day at sea and in harbour for that event and are experts at it. Probably more than most nations.

I was just being facetious. Cheers

 

[GRANNY001]

I know, so was I. Cheers!

 

[Khafee]

Accidents may happen on any ship. Fire on a ship is a real danger, and should never be taken lightly. Are you saying this CSC frigate, if named that, is doomed? Canadian ships have had enough of fires on our ships. I don't believe in "fairy tales". We should all hope that fires never happen on any ship especially navy ships. But if they do, Canadian sailors train every day at sea and in harbour for that event and are experts at it. Probably more than most nations.

Pls dont get offended, he was just joking.

 

[GRANNY001]

No offence taken. I was just joking as well! Have you thought about my new thread yet?

 

[GRANNY001]

We also have 12 Mine Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDV):

 

[GRANNY001]

More CSC Cost Woes Pros & Cons​

CSC Cost Woes Cons:
The recent confirmation that the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) will conduct and deliver yet another report on the mounting costs of Ottawa’s preferred bid winner Lockheed Martin Canada, for the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) program in October 2020 could lead to a reversal of course on this slowly evolving program. The PBO has already issued two reports on CSC costs, and the latest one is unlikely to reassure those who think that Ottawa is backing the wrong horse. Why? Because the coming update will likely show that the CSC program will now cost in excess of $70 billion CAD in 2020 fiscal funds. The initial June 2017 PBO study, “The Costs of Canada’s Surface Combatants,” estimated the total CSC costs to be $61.82 billion. In the same year, the Department of National Defence (DND) revised its original 2008 estimate from $26.2 billion to $56-60 billion. The PBO updated its initial report in June 2019 and pegged the revised CSC costs at $69.8 billion CAD.

Moreover, this Fall report will also include costing of two other, more economical, warship options to be constructed by foreign shipbuilders may be all that our politicians need to start seriously rethinking the CSC program in its entirety. The British Type 31 frigate will be built for the Royal Navy as a lower cost to the Type 26 frigate. Italy’s Fincantieri Marine recently won the contract to build a variant of its FREMM frigate under the US Navy’s FFG(X) program. In December 2017, Ottawa rejected an offer from Fincantieri to build 15 frigates in Canada for a fixed price of $30 billion CAD. The PBO will likely report that both the Type 31 and the FREMM are much cheaper options than the Lockheed Martin Canada Type 26 CSC currently under design negotiation between LM and Ottawa.

This new PBO report will come at a bad time for both the RCN and the prime contractor, Irving Shipbuilding. Ottawa is currently looking for ways to pay for the massive relief programs launched to help Canadians weather the storm unleashed by the global COVID-19 pandemic and to help the national economy to recover. In this context, the prospect of paying for a ship replacement program for the Halifax class Frigates is unlikely to resonate positively with the federal cabinet and Canadians. This may be all that our politicians need to start a serious rethinking of the CSC program in its entirety.

CSC Cost Woes Pros:
These PBO reports have been part of the CSC process now for several years with estimates that are just that.....estimates. If you take a closer look at them you will see that the PBO also include taxes injected into the costs of the CSC program which are not included by DND reports. The costs included in the 2020 PBO report will no doubt be greater than the 2019 report, but not out of line. Yes, COVID-19 has taken its toll on the federal budget and we will all be paying for it for years to come, however, we should not let a "virus" dictate other departments budgets that have been committed by the government on such a crucial program for Canada and the RCN. If we give in to COVID-19, then we have already lost to it. What will the Fall 2020 report of the PBO include? There is no crystal ball or "inside track" with the PBO office report this Fall. Ottawa has already committed to procuring 15 of these CSC ships to the Canadian people and the military. It would be "political suicide" for the government to shut down this National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS) program now. Will the PBO offer other (cheaper) frigate options for the government to consider? Are the cheaper options with lesser capabilities, to buy more ships the way to go and where are we going to get "more sailors" into this option for the "greater numbers" fleet size? DND has always faced defence budgeting constraints. There is nothing new there. Let's just let the PBO office do its job and not speculate on what will or should happen in the future.

Conclusion:
Buying off-the-shelf, cheaper and smaller, is seldom cheap or small. Our defence and foreign policies seem to be developed around the CSC Frigate program. Delaying the CSC project to buy time for the Canadian economy to begin a more “solid recovery” post pandemic, certainly has merit and would be the prudent thing to do. However this project has already been delayed far too long and any further delays would put the CSC Frigate program in real jeopardy of being cut entirely (perhaps this is what the Government really wants—remember the Avro Arrow?). That would not be good for all Canadians, especially the RCN. The Parliamentary Budget Office’s (PBOs) Fall report 2020 will undoubtedly give concern. I believe the government is caught between “a rock and a hard place,” between a COVID-19 pandemic that has financially crippled the budget that will take our children’s, children, children, generations to pay off and the CSC Frigate project that has been ‘blown out of the water’ with projected cost estimates. The one thing we cannot do is reduce the number of CSC Frigates as they are already at their bare minimum for the RCN to carry out all missions required of them. So….what to do? In my opinion (IMO), the government should judiciously carry on with the CSC program unchanged. We already seem to be doing that with the pandemic with, it seems, no problems from the government. I believe the Canadian economy is strong enough to quickly bounce back from both problems. It will just take a bit longer to get there. A bitter pill to swallow, yes, but the CSC Frigates are far too important for Canada, the RCN and our economy not to do this.

 

[space cadet]

I haven't read into this in a while but from what I remember, building the type 26 in Canada is going to cost a premium, add into this that it's an unknown and Lockheed Martin is involved and Canada should run to another option like the FREMM

 

[GRANNY001]

Yes, building in Canada is not cheap, but "closing out" a contract with Lockheed Martin BAE/Irving Ship Building would not be cheap either. Even if we decided to go with the Italian FREMM option (which we couldn't or wouldn't), they would still have to be built in Canada. That has been our ship building policy for almost 40 years and politically, will not change. To go through this process over again is not doable. We have made our bed and now we have to lay in it so to speak. The US has chosen the FREMM FFG(X) option and more power to them, but Canada for better or worse, has gone the BAE Type 26 route and that will not change, nor will the numbers. I believe a great choice to replace the Halifax class but yes, very expensive!

 

[Gripen9]

More CSC Cost Woes Pros & Cons​

CSC Cost Woes Cons:
The recent confirmation that the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) will conduct and deliver yet another report on the mounting costs of Ottawa’s preferred bid winner Lockheed Martin Canada, for the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) program in October 2020 could lead to a reversal of course on this slowly evolving program. The PBO has already issued two reports on CSC costs, and the latest one is unlikely to reassure those who think that Ottawa is backing the wrong horse. Why? Because the coming update will likely show that the CSC program will now cost in excess of $70 billion CAD in 2020 fiscal funds. The initial June 2017 PBO study, “The Costs of Canada’s Surface Combatants,” estimated the total CSC costs to be $61.82 billion. In the same year, the Department of National Defence (DND) revised its original 2008 estimate from $26.2 billion to $56-60 billion. The PBO updated its initial report in June 2019 and pegged the revised CSC costs at $69.8 billion CAD.

Moreover, this Fall report will also include costing of two other, more economical, warship options to be constructed by foreign shipbuilders may be all that our politicians need to start seriously rethinking the CSC program in its entirety. The British Type 31 frigate will be built for the Royal Navy as a lower cost to the Type 26 frigate. Italy’s Fincantieri Marine recently won the contract to build a variant of its FREMM frigate under the US Navy’s FFG(X) program. In December 2017, Ottawa rejected an offer from Fincantieri to build 15 frigates in Canada for a fixed price of $30 billion CAD. The PBO will likely report that both the Type 31 and the FREMM are much cheaper options than the Lockheed Martin Canada Type 26 CSC currently under design negotiation between LM and Ottawa.

This new PBO report will come at a bad time for both the RCN and the prime contractor, Irving Shipbuilding. Ottawa is currently looking for ways to pay for the massive relief programs launched to help Canadians weather the storm unleashed by the global COVID-19 pandemic and to help the national economy to recover. In this context, the prospect of paying for a ship replacement program for the Halifax class Frigates is unlikely to resonate positively with the federal cabinet and Canadians. This may be all that our politicians need to start a serious rethinking of the CSC program in its entirety.

CSC Cost Woes Pros:
These PBO reports have been part of the CSC process now for several years with estimates that are just that.....estimates. If you take a closer look at them you will see that the PBO also include taxes injected into the costs of the CSC program which are not included by DND reports. The costs included in the 2020 PBO report will no doubt be greater than the 2019 report, but not out of line. Yes, COVID-19 has taken its toll on the federal budget and we will all be paying for it for years to come, however, we should not let a "virus" dictate other departments budgets that have been committed by the government on such a crucial program for Canada and the RCN. If we give in to COVID-19, then we have already lost to it. What will the Fall 2020 report of the PBO include? There is no crystal ball or "inside track" with the PBO office report this Fall. Ottawa has already committed to procuring 15 of these CSC ships to the Canadian people and the military. It would be "political suicide" for the government to shut down this National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS) program now. Will the PBO offer other (cheaper) frigate options for the government to consider? Are the cheaper options with lesser capabilities, to buy more ships the way to go and where are we going to get "more sailors" into this option for the "greater numbers" fleet size? DND has always faced defence budgeting constraints. There is nothing new there. Let's just let the PBO office do its job and not speculate on what will or should happen in the future.

Conclusion:
Buying off-the-shelf, cheaper and smaller, is seldom cheap or small . Our defence and foreign policies seem to be developed around the CSC Frigate program. Delaying the CSC project to buy time for the Canadian economy to begin a more “solid recovery” post pandemic, certainly has merit and would be the prudent thing to do. However this project has already been delayed far too long and any further delays would put the CSC Frigate program in real jeopardy of being cut entirely (perhaps this is what the Government really wants—remember the Avro Arrow?). That would not be good for all Canadians, especially the RCN. The Parliamentary Budget Office’s (PBOs) Fall report 2020 will undoubtedly give concern. I believe the government is caught between “a rock and a hard place,” between a COVID-19 pandemic that has financially crippled the budget that will take our children’s, children, children, generations to pay off and the CSC Frigate project that has been ‘blown out of the water’ with projected cost estimates. The one thing we cannot do is reduce the number of CSC Frigates as they are already at their bare minimum for the RCN to carry out all missions required of them. So….what to do? In my opinion (IMO), the government should judiciously carry on with the CSC program unchanged. We already seem to be doing that with the pandemic with, it seems, no problems from the government. I believe the Canadian economy is strong enough to quickly bounce back from both problems. It will just take a bit longer to get there. A bitter pill to swallow, yes, but the CSC Frigates are far too important for Canada, the RCN and our economy not to do this.

View attachment 16125

70B for 15 vessels. That is 4B+ per vessel !
Yowzaaaaa

 

[Khafee]

70B for 15 vessels. That is 4B+ per vessel !
Yowzaaaaa

and how much does an aircraft carrier cost?

 

[Gripen9]

and how much does an aircraft carrier cost?

But this is not an aircraft carrier....
I believe the new Ford class is upwards of 15B.

4B USD is like Pak Navy's total acquisition budget for 5 years. And we need to keep a very hostile 7 times bigger adversary at bay with it

 

[Khafee]

But this is not an aircraft carrier....
I believe the new Ford class is upwards of 15B.

4B USD is like Pak Navy's total acquisition budget for 5 years. And we need to keep a very hostile 7 times bigger adversary at bay with it

Did I say it was?

HMS Queen Elizabeth cost £3 billion = C$5.197Bn

HMS Queen Elizabeth: All you need to know about the mighty aircraft carrier

The aircraft carrier can be thought of as a base at sea and can carry up to 72 aircraft at maximum capacity.

www.forces.net

Currency Converter | Foreign Exchange Rates | OANDA

Use our free currency converter. Get accurate and reliable foreign exchange rates, based on OANDA Rates™.

www1.oanda.com

Note: The project to build HMS Queen Elizabeth and sister ship HMS Prince of Wales cost more than £6 billion.

 

[Gripen9]

Did I say it was?

HMS Queen Elizabeth cost £3 billion = C$5.197Bn

HMS Queen Elizabeth: All you need to know about the mighty aircraft carrier

The aircraft carrier can be thought of as a base at sea and can carry up to 72 aircraft at maximum capacity.

www.forces.net

Currency Converter | Foreign Exchange Rates | OANDA

Use our free currency converter. Get accurate and reliable foreign exchange rates, based on OANDA Rates™.

www1.oanda.com

Note: The project to build HMS Queen Elizabeth and sister ship HMS Prince of Wales cost more than £6 billion.

Those are mini Aircraft Carriers as well. These are destroyers. Esp. if you are building 15 of them, you should be able to get the cost less than 1B per vessel?

 

[Khafee]

Those are mini Aircraft Carriers as well. These are destroyers. Esp. if you are building 15 of them, you should be able to get the cost less than 1B per vessel?

I think 72 a/c is not a mini aircraft carrier, but quite a decent size one.

But the $4bn/ship for CSC is way over the top.