Pakistan army contingent to be posted in Saudi Arabia on 'training and advisory mission'

Indus Falcon

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This is where I would like to differ with you, this is basically the same mentality of preferring one country over the other .... for us BOTH KSA & IRAN are STRATEGICALLY IMPORTANT ... what we all forget when we compare (or prefer) our relations with one country with our relations to the other country we in reality conjoint and complicate our relations and policies towards those countries thus reduce our DIPLOMATIC & POLITICAL OPTIONS hence we always find Pakistan in confined space in International Arena. Ideally our relations with every country must be INDEPENDENT of any third party intervention

But there are SOME IMPORTANT QUESTIONS which I observe all are either avoiding or ignoring, the fact that in current regional scenario of Middle-east sending troops to KSA is having more significance then some sensitivities of IRAN or even it is more important than current Yemen war, in short first we must understand that PAKISTAN is not a NET SECURITY PROVIDER in the middle-east region; until recently USA was the sole policeman in the region but the involvement of Russia has changes the dynamics and situation after the Qatar crises and the involvement of Turkey and UAE has complicated it further

Keep in mind KSA does not need Pakistan for its security, they have a very potent defence infrastructure in place for this purpose so even after this IF they find assistance of Pakistan Armed forces as advisers & trainers useful then its good but what IF some thing very bad happen which force us to take decisions then WHAT WOULD BE BASIS ON WHICH WE WILL TAKE DECISION.

Above all What is our Policy to deal with current and future crises of middle-east ....???
I accept your disagreement but let me point out that your statement could be true IF we analysis the clout of both KSA & Iran EXCLUSIVELY in the context of Middle-east only, but from the perspective of Pakistan importance of both Iran & KSA lies in two different regions.

You have rightly pointed out that KSA is regional leader in middle-east but for us the importance of Iran lies in our own region spreading from Central Asia to South Asia, just because of this reason I was opposing the idea of conjoining our policies for KSA & Iran.


Why should they do this ???
As a matter of fact Why any country of the world would allow this ...???
Above all why should we expect this type of FAVOUR from any country including KSA .... ??

It not a matter related to romantic fantasies of some teenage, even to think in this way is beyond the boundaries of sensibility, we should not let the realism slip out from our discussion


Yes I am aware, specially their policies in past regarding Northern Alliance


Nor I am opposing this, but I am advocating to FORMALIZE it with clear understanding of each other limitations without leaving any doubt which may give raise to any unwanted event such as the statement given by Minister of State for Foreign Affairs of UAE Dr. Anwar Mohammed Gargash;
now read my comment I made in my previous post in the context of Mr. Gargash Statement.

Now the Irony is this statement was made even when our C-130s were participating in Yemen ops
listen the related content at 2:30


Again in larger context
1- Pak-USA relations have no future
2- American strategy in Afghanistan has failed
3- China and Russia are supporting Iran diplomatically
4- Iran is Observer in SCO
5- Rise of ISIS in Afghanistan
6- Penetration of Iran in Afghanistan's current political system
7- Gawadar ports & CPEC
8- Tripartite Freight Train Agreement is about to functional in this year
9- Stability/Instability in Baluchistan
10- Iran is acting as buffer zone between Pakistan & Syrian crises by keep both side of Syrian crises engaged in Syria
11- etc.

But Iran have 'GEOGRAPHY & REACH' .

It would be right only if we have to hyphenate our dealing with both countries in the same region.
I used the word INDEPENDENT just as I explained earlier in this post that both countries have their importance in different regions

IF we have to fight a war then believe me it will be US and ONLY US who will fight, there are limitations even for KSA again read my comment



Already explained above in detail
Before I answer your posts, please explain the following:

1) Kulbhusan Jadev operating a network out of Chababhar, crossing multiple times into Pakistan, without Irannian Intel services coop.

2) Uzair Baloch

3) Baba Ladla

4) MWM - Majlis Wahdat ul Muslimeen. (Their second in command was recently arrested by Pakistan intel services, and it wasn't for eve teasing.)


Iran has been involved in destabilizing Pakistan from day one, yet we have fan boys like you, who still cheer for Iran. Even China and Russia deal with Iran only because they have to. The Iranians inability to have a decent air force is just a hint, at where they stand in the international arena.

I look forward to another enlightening post from you.
 

HRK

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I still try imagining how our part of the world would have been different if we had better relations with USSR instead of opting to join US camp solely.
Always remember its not you who chose the status of your relationship with SUPERPOWER, its the superpower who have this 'OPTION' ...
HRK I look at it as ......... long term strategic importance and Short term strategic importance, Iran for me by all means should be marked short term,
No one can change the geography until unless nature decide otherwise and INTERESTS or THREATS BASED ON GEOGRAPHY ARE ALWAYS PERMANENT here recall the Cuban crises or from our own region AFGHANISTAN
please remember we are dealing with Mullah Iran
Mullah is not the only problem, Iranians as a NATION comes with the historic baggage of PERSIAN EMPIRE and RACIAL SUPERIORITY believes, so even if some day Mullah vanish in thin air the fetish of Iranian people for their PERSIAN EMPIRE will remain
Iran under Shah and Iran under Mullah ......... which one suits Pakistan?
"NON" and I repeat again "NON" but it does not mean we should have another AFGHANISTAN in our neighborhood
Our relations with Muslim world and our relations with non Muslim world ........ are two different scenarios of different nature, there are extra factors and considerations attached with when it comes to having relations with and stature in Muslim world.
My remarks were made solely in context of Pak-Iran and Pak-KSA relationship
Shy away from the realities, even when you have the capability ......... but looking away won't help, either go offensive or as usual wake up after a decade when much has been lost. We cannot deny that common Pakistanis are not fighting each other in those regions.
I am not shying away but stating the hard cold fact we (both ARAB COUNTRIES and PAKISTAN) can not AFFORD PAKISTAN as a NET SECURITY PROVIDER in the region this role is RESERVE for USA, we could only have low and mid level engagements in all fields of interests, for this point try to understand global political alignment, plz keep in mind all ARAB countries are in US camp and we are pushed out (thnx to Almighty) form US camp our engagements (from both sides) beyond a certain point would not be allowed (read TOLERATED)
If Pakistan doesn't mind Madinah and Makkah
First of all Is there any threat to these holy cities ....???

Is there any formal request by KSA for the protection of these holy cities ....??

Arabs are more than capable enough to defend these, they have all the means & resources to defend Makkah and Madinah better than us and KSA in recent past has successfully shown its capability to
defend.

Now the second point KSA is not asking to send troops to defend or fight for a single inch, its just DIPLOMATIC and POLITICAL measure so as I said before in this thread I repeat
Nor I am opposing this, I am advocating to FORMALIZE it with clear understanding of each other limitations without leaving any doubt which may give raise to any unwanted event such as the statement given by Minister of State for Foreign Affairs of UAE Dr. Anwar Mohammed Gargash;
Remaining confused and giving out confused signals
this is the reason I am saying it is necessary for both sides to CLEARLY understand each other LIMITATIONS
 

HRK

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Before I answer your posts, please explain the following:

1) Kulbhusan Jadev operating a network out of Chababhar, crossing multiple times into Pakistan, without Irannian Intel services coop.

2) Uzair Baloch

3) Baba Ladla

4) MWM - Majlis Wahdat ul Muslimeen. (Their second in command was recently arrested by Pakistan intel services, and it wasn't for eve teasing.)


Iran has been involved in destabilizing Pakistan from day one, yet we have fan boys like you, who still cheer for Iran. Even China and Russia deal with Iran only because they have to. The Iranians inability to have a decent air force is just a hint, at where they stand in the international arena.

I look forward to another enlightening post from you.
As I said in my reply to I.R.A

1-No one can change the geography until unless nature decide otherwise and INTERESTS or THREATS BASED ON GEOGRAPHY ARE ALWAYS PERMANENT here recall the Cuban crises or from our own region AFGHANISTAN

2- "NON" and I repeat again "NON" but it does not mean we should have another AFGHANISTAN in our neighborhood

yet we have fan boys like you, who still cheer for Iran.
You know me I could be anything but not a 'FAN BOY'
Even China and Russia deal with Iran only because they have to.
This exactly what I am saying We have to deal with Iran because we have to
 

Tps77

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Before I answer your posts, please explain the following:

1) Kulbhusan Jadev operating a network out of Chababhar, crossing multiple times into Pakistan, without Irannian Intel services coop.

2) Uzair Baloch

3) Baba Ladla

4) MWM - Majlis Wahdat ul Muslimeen. (Their second in command was recently arrested by Pakistan intel services, and it wasn't for eve teasing.)


Iran has been involved in destabilizing Pakistan from day one, yet we have fan boys like you, who still cheer for Iran. Even China and Russia deal with Iran only because they have to. The Iranians inability to have a decent air force is just a hint, at where they stand in the international arena.

I look forward to another enlightening post from you.
I want noting , I mean I am full up for relation with Iran and Pakistan . Problem is that 80% of Top Brass in iran is under Indian influence and TBH I give full credits to india that they worked superb , 90 % Members of National Security Council are anti Pakistan BUT those who went to Pakistan or they feel Pakistan can offer them much better relation are there and working really hard but again they are in minority . Our Fault is that we are too emotional , We can have better relations with that one who offers us more support.
Btw we need to reorganize our Foreign Ministry.
 

Joe Shearer

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I want noting , I mean I am full up for relation with Iran and Pakistan . Problem is that 80% of Top Brass in iran is under Indian influence and TBH I give full credits to india that they worked superb , 90 % Members of National Security Council are anti Pakistan BUT those who went to Pakistan or they feel Pakistan can offer them much better relation are there and working really hard but again they are in minority . Our Fault is that we are too emotional , We can have better relations with that one who offers us more support.
Btw we need to reorganize our Foreign Ministry.
India is being used by Iran to 'balance her books', to remind Pakistan that Iran has options if she wants to create options to supporting Pakistan. That is just a reminder, and not the substantive reality, which is that Pakistan has solid support from both Muslim powers, and from Turkey; we can expect limitless photo opportunities, and we can expect an ocean of paper to be generated promising the riches of the djinn in the fairy tale to those who buy Iranian oil in spite of the US embargo; we cannot expect a Mullah-dominated country to take a non-Muslim country's side against the quintessential Muslim country.

Have no illusions that India is under some kind of spell; these brutal realities are known well, and factored in. We will get superficial friendship from both KSA and Iran. In case of war, we know where their sympathies - and direct and indirect support - will be placed.

One of the benefits of having an organised Foreign Ministry! :p
 

Tps77

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One of the benefits of having an organised Foreign Ministry! :p
That is where we are lacking .:rolleyes:
But Regarding iran , I counldn't stopped my self from laughing when National TV of iran was showing Tamil action film that too dubbed in persian :eek:>>_*
 

Eagle1

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That is where we are lacking .:rolleyes:
But Regarding iran , I counldn't stopped my self from laughing when National TV of iran was showing Tamil action film that too dubbed in persian :eek:>>_*
Well lucky you! You get to enjoy Tamil movies in Persian |0|
 

I.R.A

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Mullah is not the only problem, Iranians as a NATION comes with the historic baggage of PERSIAN EMPIRE and RACIAL SUPERIORITY believes, so even if some day Mullah vanish in thin air the fetish of Iranian people for their PERSIAN EMPIRE will remain
Mullah is the problem ....... because in their presence the cannon fodders and pawns they zombified in other countries cannot see the real truth and cannot know where they stand when it comes to being an Iranian and a non Iranian.

With Mullah gone the cover hiding the bitter truth is blown away ........ that I prefer more.

India is being used by Iran to 'balance her books', to remind Pakistan that Iran has options if she wants to create options to supporting Pakistan. That is just a reminder, and not the substantive reality, which is that Pakistan has solid support from both Muslim powers, and from Turkey; we can expect limitless photo opportunities, and we can expect an ocean of paper to be generated promising the riches of the djinn in the fairy tale to those who buy Iranian oil in spite of the US embargo; we cannot expect a Mullah-dominated country to take a non-Muslim country's side against the quintessential Muslim country.

Have no illusions that India is under some kind of spell; these brutal realities are known well, and factored in. We will get superficial friendship from both KSA and Iran. In case of war, we know where their sympathies - and direct and indirect support - will be placed.

One of the benefits of having an organised Foreign Ministry! :p

Sir I hope your interior ministry is also very organised and up to the mark ........... having relations with Iran and letting their influence spread in your minority unhindered .......... carries perks of its own (for them and their agenda). Your populace is under a spell sir g.


Lucky are iranians who get to see precious things |O|

There used to be a Lucky Irani circus ........ I guess they have taken up a more serious role now?
 

Joe Shearer

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Mullah is the problem ....... because in their presence the cannon fodders and pawns they zombified in other countries cannot see the real truth and cannot know where they stand when it comes to being an Iranian and a non Iranian.

With Mullah gone the cover hiding the bitter truth is blown away ........ that I prefer more.




Sir I hope your interior ministry is also very organised and up to the mark ........... having relations with Iran and letting their influence spread in your minority unhindered .......... carries perks of its own (for them and their agenda). Your populace is under a spell sir g.





There used to be a Lucky Irani circus ........ I guess they have taken up a more serious role now?
An evil spell...but individuals can't do much about it.
 

I.R.A

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An evil spell...but individuals can't do much about it.

If it wasn't my personal bias for their (Jewish and Mullah) prophecies (doomsday and coming of the one) .......... I really would love to see what happens to idol worshiping India ...... that is when the spell is lifted (this is just to confirm See I told you). Don't get me wrong I don't wish any harm and chaos.... honestly.
 

Joe Shearer

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If it wasn't my personal bias for their (Jewish and Mullah) prophecies (doomsday and coming of the one) .......... I really would love to see what happens to idol worshiping India ...... that is when the spell is lifted (this is just to confirm See I told you). Don't get me wrong I don't wish any harm and chaos.... honestly.
It will be interesting.

This collection of religions, not a single religion, has suffered several shocks so far: first, the break-away from those who later became followers of the prophet Zarathustra; second, the revolt of those who got sick of meaningless ritual and tried to get their lives normal and under their own control again; third, the invasion of outlanders, who strangely took to these beliefs, and the dissident beliefs, and made it their own; fourth, the coming of the Muslims, and the insistence on tawhid, that, in some ways, weakened, and, in other ways, weakened those who themselves wanted to preach tawhid; fifth, the coming of the Europeans, who insisted on trying to understand something that they knew very little about, then tried to find out more, so that they could understand, then thought they had 'got it, and infected the original people with their peculiar, half-understood, garbled versions of these ruled people and their religion, their social structures, their legal systems and personal systems, and even their food!

Think of any area, any aspect of life, and I will narrate to you how it came into the system, and when, and what happened to it. Down to the humble samosa.

Things will change, but in which direction, nobody can say. If the Wahhabis, or the Deoband School, or the Tabligh e Jamaiat* had not been formed and had not put forth a strong, re-booting the system kind of movement (all this within a short period of each other), Muslims in India would have been celebrating Hindu festivals, leaving out the religious element, they would have adopted some Indian food habits, without trespassing into the area that is haram, they would have flocked to shrines and pleaded for saints and pirs to intercede for them, or do them favours that belong to the power of the One God, and in a hundred ways, come closer to those who surrounded them in such huge numbers. Not without changing those others, but with some changes within themselves.

For you, I presume it could be a bad thing. For many, it would be a good thing. For me, it is a matter to be studied closely, to try to understand better the human condition.

* Just to remind you, the Tabligh was set up to reform the loose ways of the nominally Muslim Meos, and the towering figure of sub-continental Muslim identity politics was born into a set of people whose personal law, in some respects, was Hindu personal law. Nothing, as Felix Leiter put it, propinks like propinquity.
 

Tps77

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Mullah is the problem ....... because in their presence the cannon fodders and pawns they zombified in other countries cannot see the real truth and cannot know where they stand when it comes to being an Iranian and a non Iranian.

With Mullah gone the cover hiding the bitter truth is blown away ........ that I prefer more.




Sir I hope your interior ministry is also very organised and up to the mark ........... having relations with Iran and letting their influence spread in your minority unhindered .......... carries perks of its own (for them and their agenda). Your populace is under a spell sir g.





There used to be a Lucky Irani circus ........ I guess they have taken up a more serious role now?
yeah South indian movies :p
 

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I accept your disagreement but let me point out that your statement could be true IF we analysis the clout of both KSA & Iran EXCLUSIVELY in the context of Middle-east only, but from the perspective of Pakistan importance of both Iran & KSA lies in two different regions.

You have rightly pointed out that KSA is regional leader in middle-east but for us the importance of Iran lies in our own region spreading from Central Asia to South Asia, just because of this reason I was opposing the idea of conjoining our policies for KSA & Iran.


Why should they do this ???
As a matter of fact Why any country of the world would allow this ...???
Above all why should we expect this type of FAVOUR from any country including KSA .... ??

It not a matter related to romantic fantasies of some teenage, even to think in this way is beyond the boundaries of sensibility, we should not let the realism slip out from our discussion


Yes I am aware, specially their policies in past regarding Northern Alliance


Nor I am opposing this, but I am advocating to FORMALIZE it with clear understanding of each other limitations without leaving any doubt which may give raise to any unwanted event such as the statement given by Minister of State for Foreign Affairs of UAE Dr. Anwar Mohammed Gargash;
now read my comment I made in my previous post in the context of Mr. Gargash Statement.

Now the Irony is this statement was made even when our C-130s were participating in Yemen ops
listen the related content at 2:30


Again in larger context
1- Pak-USA relations have no future
2- American strategy in Afghanistan has failed
3- China and Russia are supporting Iran diplomatically
4- Iran is Observer in SCO
5- Rise of ISIS in Afghanistan
6- Penetration of Iran in Afghanistan's current political system
7- Gawadar ports & CPEC
8- Tripartite Freight Train Agreement is about to functional in this year
9- Stability/Instability in Baluchistan
10- Iran is acting as buffer zone between Pakistan & Syrian crises by keep both side of Syrian crises engaged in Syria
11- etc.

But Iran have 'GEOGRAPHY & REACH' .

It would be right only if we have to hyphenate our dealing with both countries in the same region.
I used the word INDEPENDENT just as I explained earlier in this post that both countries have their importance in different regions

IF we have to fight a war then believe me it will be US and ONLY US who will fight, there are limitations even for KSA again read my comment



Already explained above in detail
Allow me to say your argument is flawed. Here is my counter argument is as follow:

1- Iran is and has never been in any position of being a strategically importance to Pakistan for many many reasons:
A- Durin India, Pakistan war, Iran has not provide any strategic depth to Pakistan
B- During US invasion of Afghanistan, Iran took an anti Pakistan approach
C- Iran offered its soil, provide fake passport for anti Pakistan spies to cross in; Pakistan side of the story I have no proof but i do believe it.
D- Iran is anti Gawadar port for its Chabahar giving India a space for investment.
E- Iran involvement in cross border killing of security forces, violation of Pakistan airspace
F- Iran carried many attacks against anti Iran elements inside Pakistan including Saudi diplomats
G- Iran manipulation of LNG pipeline
H- Balouchstan stability is mutual concern for both countries, separation of Baluchistan Pakistan = Baluchistan Iran as well.

2- Saudi Arabia Pakistan strategic relation
A- Saudi Arabia role during India-Pakistan war of providing naval vessels, ammunition and other financial and logistic support to the best of its capability
B- Pakistan troops stationed across the Arabian gulf back in 60 till late 80s
C- Saudi Arabia-Pakistan involvement in afghanistan war.
D- Saudi Arabia was the only country who breached/violated UN sanctions over Pakistan risking its own security and economy; Saudi Arabia used civilian planes with empty seats to provide Pakistan with supplies.
E- Pakistan offers Shamsi military base to Saudi Arabia.
F- Saudi Arabia investments, loans...etc inside Pakistan.

Sure iran is acting as a buffer zone against ISIS in Pakistan but it support ISIS in Syria, armed militants everywhere, Afghanistan , Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen and most likely has sleeping cells inside pakistan too aside from recruiting Shia Pakistanis and send them to die in Syria.

So when you speak about strategic importance please do the math. The bottom line is that if Pakistan found itself threatens the only country that will stand by it is Saudi Arabia and probably some other gulf states as well. If Saudi Arabia is under threat, Pakistan aside from other regional countries will be the turning point in such situation.

I don't want to speak about how Shia Iran sees the Sunnia world just to avoid being labeled sectarian or anti shia.

Enjoy your day mate.
 

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