Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

[Khafee]

Sure I will just give me some Time, I am working on my final's papers.

May Allah grant you success in all your endeavors.

 

[Araz]

Sir, the Blk52 was a very big disappointment for me personally, given the leg work I did.

The UAE paid US$3bn+ for the R&D of the Blk60, so now there are some technologies to which it holds proprietary rights, even today. Any sale of those techs will insure a royalty. Hence why all Blk70/72 are not the same.

At that time the biggest hurdle to Blk60's (with PAF) would have been the royalty to the UAE. Besides that, the price difference was only marginal. The UAE waived the royalties for PAF, given their past history. But PAF was on some other trajectory.

Thank you for an illuminating response. I am not sure I am deserving of the padestal you have stood me up on but I remain most grateful.
Being an enthusiast I am unaware of the thinking of the PAF of the time. Obviously an AESA would have made the 16s a much more dangerous beast then they already are. So if what you are saying is true and the AESA was available then not going for it seems illogical.
Like all Pakistanis I would like to think that my Air force made a pragmatic decision. The only 2 things I can think of from my reading of the news at that time were:
1. PAF was told that AESA would not be approved by the congress and so did not go for it.
2. The issue was also of fleet wide upgradation which with an AESA in mind would have gone beyond the price PAF was willing to pay. The only comparative example of fleet wide upgrade to AESA was the Taiwanese Air force and their upgrade would have cost them $8 billion along with the new fighters they were looking for( I cannot recall the numbers but if memory serves me right the numbers were similar). There were issues like research into whether the 16/15&16/OCUs could be converted to AESA radar. Whether PAF could have afforded 2 different types of 16s is one I cannot answer. I suspect it was the issue of US not being able to introduce new technology into the region which may have played a major part.
This is all I can venture at the moment. We were all surprised at the PAF decision and there was a fair bit of debate on as well as pakdef.info on the subject.
Kond regards

 

[Araz]

And that is the scary part. Traitorous men at high posts can mean doom for that institution and nation.

Iam reminded of the Quran and how it describes the matter of our mother Ayesha Siddiqa RA when she was wrongly accused. We are taught to investigate thoroughly first before we accuse. Secondly we are taught to believe that our brethren would have thought their decisions out thoroughly by concensus. Accusations without proof is something that should be avoided.
A

 

[Khafee]

Thanl you for an illuminating response. I am not sure I am deserving of the padestal you have stood me up on but I remain most grateful.
Being an enthusiast I am unaware of the thinking of the PAF of the time. Obviously an AESA would have made the 16s a much more dangerous beast then they already are. So if what you are saying is true and the AESA was available then not going for it seems illogical.
Like all Pakistanis I would like to think that my Air force made a pragmatic decision. The only 2 things I can think of from my reading of the news at that time were:
1. PAF was told that AESA would not be aproved by the congress and so did not go for it.
2. The issue was also of fleet wide upgradation which with an AESA in mind would have gone beyond the price PAF was willing to pay. The only comparative example of fleet wide upgrade to AESA was the Taiwanese Air force and their upgrade would have cost them $8 billion along with the new fighters they were lookkng for( I cannot recall the nimbers but if memory serves me right the numbers were similar). There were issues like research into whether the 16/15&16/OCUs could be converted to AESA radar. Whether PAF could have afforded 2 different types of 16s is one I cannot answer. I suspect it was the issue of US not being able to introduce new technology into the region which may have played a major part.
This is all I can venture at the moment. We were all surprised at the PAF decision and there was a fair bit of debate on the as well as pakdef.info on the subject.
Kond regards

Sir,

1) IF congress was going to say NO, so be it, what was the harm in trying? All they would do is say "NO", they wouldn't kill you! Besides being a Major Non-NATO Ally "could" Congress afford to say no? I dont think so. I feel Mushy severely under sold Pakistan.

2) Again being a Major Non-NATO Ally, meant shoving the cost down the throat, of those on whose behalf this mess was created. PAF should have shamelessly asked for 250 Blk60's and settled for 125

3) After doing all the hard work on my end, I was severely dissapointed as expected, but I did not stop digging as to why Pakistan said no. Nonetheless my understanding is, that in order to do with the "bare minimum" to save critical funds, someone higher than PAF, made the call.

Best Regards

 

[Khafee]

Iam reminded of the Quran and how it describes the matter of our mother Ayesha Siddiqa RA when she was wrongly accused. We are taught to investigate thoroughly first before we accuse. Secondly we are taught to believe that our brethren would have thought their decisions out thoroughly by concensus. Accusations without proof is something that should be avoided.
A

Sir,

I personally have met a very famous PAF one star, who also served with UAEAF, working as a consultant for USAF. So lets not open this can of worms. Until men in uniform stop selling themselves or their loved ones, for the miserable green card, this line of "accusations" will prevail.

If you wish, I will be happy to provide details in pvt.

 

[Safri167]

Until men in uniform stop selling themselves or their loved ones, for the miserable green card

دل ناامید تو نہیں، ناکام ہی تو ہے

! لمبی ہے غم کی شام، مگر شام ہی تو ہے

 

[Gripen9]

Sir,

I personally have met a very famous PAF one star, who also served with UAEAF, working as a consultant for USAF. So lets not open this can of worms. Until men in uniform stop selling themselves or their loved ones, for the miserable green card, this line of "accusations" will prevail.

If you wish, I will be happy to provide details in pvt.

Our mutual acquaintance ? ?

 

[Araz]

Sir,

1) IF congress was going to say NO, so be it, what was the harm in trying? All they would do is say "NO", they wouldn't kill you! Besides being a Major Non-NATO Ally "could" Congress afford to say no? I dont think so. I feel Mushy severely under sold Pakistan.

2) Again being a Major Non-NATO Ally, meant shoving the cost down the throat, of those on whose behalf this mess was created. PAF should have shamelessly asked for 250 Blk60's and settled for 125

3) After doing all the hard work on my end, I was severely dissapointed as expected, but I did not stop digging as to why Pakistan said no. Nonetheless my understanding is, that in order to do with the "bare minimum" to save critical funds, someone higher than PAF, made the call.

Best Regards

Ican only surmise that Congress saying No could have created complications for the whole deal so it may have been decided to not persue that particular line. PAF was desperate for fleet wide upgradation so a more mundane choice was made.
However if as you say it was a call to save critical funds it was at the end of the day a financial decision.
You know this better than me as you know this situation inside out as against me who is a rank outsider.
A

 

[Mastankhan]

Iam reminded of the Quran and how it describes the matter of our mother Ayesha Siddiqa RA when she was wrongly accused. We are taught to investigate thoroughly first before we accuse. Secondly we are taught to believe that our brethren would have thought their decisions out thoroughly by concensus. Accusations without proof is something that should be avoided.
A

Suddenly a sainthood is being awarded to those that should be charged with treason---. Cowardice at its worst---.

 

[Mastankhan]

Sir,

1) IF congress was going to say NO, so be it, what was the harm in trying? All they would do is say "NO", they wouldn't kill you! Besides being a Major Non-NATO Ally "could" Congress afford to say no? I dont think so. I feel Mushy severely under sold Pakistan.

2) Again being a Major Non-NATO Ally, meant shoving the cost down the throat, of those on whose behalf this mess was created. PAF should have shamelessly asked for 250 Blk60's and settled for 125

3) After doing all the hard work on my end, I was severely dissapointed as expected, but I did not stop digging as to why Pakistan said no. Nonetheless my understanding is, that in order to do with the "bare minimum" to save critical funds, someone higher than PAF, made the call.

Best Regards

Hi,

A NO create a big pressure on the one saying NO---. If it is repeated again and again---the pressure built up gets higher and higher---.

Paf generals were cowards at heart---. They did not want to push the americans maybe that their kids be denied education in the US or they be denied entry or lucrative jobs in the US after retirement--.

 

[Araz]

Sir,

I personally have met a very famous PAF one star, who also served with UAEAF, working as a consultant for USAF. So lets not open this can of worms. Until men in uniform stop selling themselves or their loved ones, for the miserable green card, this line of "accusations" will prevail.

If you wish, I will be happy to provide details in pvt.

I am sure that is the case. Quite a few people post retirement work for other air forces in the capacity of Consultants. While it is distasteful is it treasonous?
My brother Ihave heard of a lot of mishandling of affairs and downright dishonesty and taking commision to even buy substandard equipment for the Air force. However, I dont mention it as I do not know this irrefutably. So you are right in that people take up jobs with other entities post retirement. I dont know whether this is treasonous. Big names are mentioned but no one canbe absolutely irrefutanly sure. When there is widespread corruption is it possible that men in uniform are indulging in it?. The answer maybe positive but let Allah izza wa Jal deal with them in the final court of justice where there is no hiding of facts.
I avoid mentioning events for fear of being labelled a backbiter which is condemned in Islam. I am sure you have in your capacity come across lots that you would find distasteful and wrong.
MaAsSalam
A

 

[Araz]

Suddenly a sainthood is being awarded to those that should be charged with treason---. Cowardice at its worst---.

Sir.
Please feel free to take them to court if you have irrefutable evidence of misdoings. I have alluded to a general principle which is tentamount to my belief. My belief is if you cannot prove things irrefutably in court. Keep quiet.
I know you carry grudge against me from the other forum and I am OK with this if you want to continue along this line. My belief does not change just because of criticism from you or others.
It is the principal of things in general rather than generally painting the whole institution black without proof.
If you can prove irrefutanly that X.,Y or Z official was involved in wrong doing please take them to court and hang them en masse from the nearest tree. But till one can do this, one should keep quiet.
My last post to you on the subject.
Regards
A

 

[Mastankhan]

Sir.
Please feel free to take them to court if you have irrefutable evidence of misdoings. I have alluded to a general principle which is tentamount to my belief. My belief is if you cannot prove things irrefutably in court. Keep quiet.
I know you carry grudge against me from the other forum and I am OK with this if you want to continue along this line. My belief does not change just because of criticism from you or others.
It is the principal of things in general rather than generally painting the whole institution black without proof.
If you can prove irrefutanly that X.,Y or Z official was involved in wrong doing please take them to court and hang them en masse from the nearest tree. But till one can do this, one should keep quiet.
My last post to you on the subject.
Regards
A

Hi,

Oh yes I do---.

 

[Scorpio]

Hi,

Oh yes I do---.

I wish i can too, but one thing is certain this world or the other one thay will pack back for it heavily.

Remember Rizaq haram once came in bloodlines will travel in generation , making multiple generations to pay for it

 

[Zarvan]