Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

[War Historian]

Pakistan government or PAF must raise another institution for aeronautical works, Some where deep into state(near indus river lower than mianwali or near DG khan). So the competition between two organisations will give good products and better new ideas. Like KRL and Nescom into missile field. Like KRL and PAEC in nuclear weapon development. So positive competition always gives good results in a due time. So our ultimate goal should be aero engine development and a separate aero maintenance other than the "PACK".

 

[Cookie Monster]

Pakistan government or PAF must raise another institution for aeronautical works, Some where deep into state(near indus river lower than mianwali or near DG khan). So the competition between two organisations will give good products and better new ideas. Like KRL and Nescom into missile field. Like KRL and PAEC in nuclear weapon development. So positive competition always gives good results in a due time. So our ultimate goal should be aero engine development and a separate aero maintenance other than the "PACK".

Instead of splitting what little government resources are being spent for indigenous efforts...Pakistan needs to take steps to involve private sector into it. Private sector will take time to cultivate...possibly decades...but once it gets going...it will accelerate at a fast pace and more efficiently.

 

[Khafee]

Instead of splitting what little government resources are being spent for indigenous efforts...Pakistan needs to take steps to involve private sector into it. Private sector will take time to cultivate...possibly decades...but once it gets going...it will accelerate at a fast pace and more efficiently.

is time on our side?

 

[Khafee]

@Cookie Monster @War Historian

This deal should tell us, how difficult it is to get engine technology.

Having said that, yes Tank engines and Fighter jet engines are two different things, but the idea is, unless you do your own R&D, no one will give you cutting edge tech.

Altay power pack talks between Turkey, SKorea changes to off-the-shelf supply

A procurement official confirmed the off-the-shelf approach but voiced concern about a potential political intervention blocking the deal.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Cookie Monster]

is time on our side?

It is not...but it wouldn't hurt for Pakistan to have policies conducive for private sector's growth/involvement in defense.

There doesn't even have to experiment in any way...
...there already exist examples like we see in case of South Korea and even India. We see established giants venturing over into defense related products. For example Hyundai which didn't start off as a company that produced products for armed forces...but then eventually did branch out bcuz it's lucrative business. Same applies to companies like Tata.

Pakistan doesn't have too many giants like that...but there still exist ppl with enough money to invest(doesn't matter how they acquired it). What's lacking is the vision...on both sides...the government and these potential investors. Instead of making sugar mills after sugar mills...or trying the same old textile mills and buying/developing real estate...
...these guys can stand to make money by providing defense products to Pak's armed forces. It doesn't even have to be any new product...that would carry the risk of losing out in selection progress and all the investment goes down the drain. They can literally just feed off the work already done...
...like we see in case of Tejas...work was already done to develop it by state institutions...but then for production they involved private sector(along with state institutions). So the private sector companies literally get government money to produce parts that were already worked on mainly by the state institutions.

This above would be the first step to get them rolling...and hopefully these private companies can start off in overlapping fields...so they can also offer civilian products locally that use similar expertise. Like for example an optronics company can provide products for civilian as well as military use. This way they can keep chugging along even in absence of orders from the military...and might even be able to export.

 

[Cookie Monster]

@Cookie Monster @War Historian

This deal should tell us, how difficult it is to get engine technology.

Having said that, yes Tank engines and Fighter jet engines are two different things, but the idea is, unless you do your own R&D, no one will give you cutting edge tech.

Altay power pack talks between Turkey, SKorea changes to off-the-shelf supply

A procurement official confirmed the off-the-shelf approach but voiced concern about a potential political intervention blocking the deal.

www.defensenews.com

Right..Pak is far from being able to develop engines. My argument is we have to provide the necessary environment for the private sector to take baby steps...so that maybe in 50 years time...we can see it at the level of where Turkish defense related private firms are now. The baby steps can be taken without a major source of money provided or without Pak's defense budget taking a hit.

 

[Cookie Monster]

is time on our side?

Time is never on anyone's side...but there is such a thing as...
1) taking a calculated risk
2) thinking smart

One doesn't always have to follow a linear path...just bcuz the rest of the world followed that path and is now "successful"(in whatever field it may be).

Like for point number 2...we see that most developed countries of today(let's say US and western European countries)..first had landlines...then eventually as technology progressed...they eventually went on to have cell towers. Should a country like congo first start laying landlines...and then eventually move to having cell towers on its path towards development?
No the smart move would be to just skip that step...and take the leap forward keeping in mind the future.

Just like that...purchasing stuff to plug holes NOW...only meets our needs for NOW. On this end India will always be a step ahead. Pakistan cannot outspend India nor match it. It will always be in catch up mode. Secondly...at the pace at which India's private sector is picking up and getting involved in their defense products...it would be foolish for Pak to underestimate this development. Western giants like Boeing and Dassault are lining up and partnering with their private companies...along with Indian government also providing them work share. It won't be long before these private companies will have massive amounts of capital for their own R&D and would start partnering with universities for research and attracting top talent with lucrative pay/benefits..
...basically following the path we already see established in the US with defense giants like Boeing, Raytheon, Northrop, Lockheed, Bell, etc.

The only option for Pakistan to compete...would be to have its own private sector...just so it can at minimum keep up.

Now for number 1...taking a calculated risk. Here I'd use the example of Tariq Bin Ziyad's "burn the boats". If one is to think about it in the sense...that they were outnumbered...in a foreign unfamiliar territory...with limited logistics and then to burn the boats...their only way back...
...trapping themselves with numerically superior enemy ahead and the sea behind them..it seems foolish on the surface of it. However this was a calculated risk as it made every soldier fight harder...knowing that it's definitely a death sentence to try and run...the only chance at survival is through.
...in that same manner...knowing the capability gap. Knowing India's IBGs(which have already practiced maneuvers at vast scale in their exercises)...and the need for attack helicopters...
...I still think that Pak can get by for now. Any war that would occur would be at a limited scale for now. The reason being mainly China's recent and ongoing activity on India's north. Of course India is not gonna try to show weakness...but the reality is they are deeply concerned by the two fronts that was their nightmare. Their military minds would be desperately hoping to have temporary peace with Pak just so they can contend with the juggernaut to the north. So a full scale war with Pak would be the last thing they would seek out in the short term at least. Of course I could be wrong and a war could start tomorrow.
...but based on my assessment above...I would say Pakistan should use it to its advantage.

 

[War Historian]

Due to the metallurgical sensitivity, engine building is one of the most difficult tasks. Had R&D started 3 decades ago, today you would have a product that would be called reliable.

Lets hope there are JV's in this sector soon.

I hope Sir, Insha'Allah very soon JV on engine development. Its need of the hour.we are late in this field, imagine if we had took step in this direction at the time of JFT program was started in late 90s. And JFT and aero engine program development side by side then today we are independent from all blackmail by dominant countries. But its now time when JFT entering into 3rd block so if we develop now it will help us on future blocks of JFT and NGF-AZM. Insha'Allah.

 

[War Historian]

@Cookie Monster @War Historian

This deal should tell us, how difficult it is to get engine technology.

Having said that, yes Tank engines and Fighter jet engines are two different things, but the idea is, unless you do your own R&D, no one will give you cutting edge tech.

Altay power pack talks between Turkey, SKorea changes to off-the-shelf supply

A procurement official confirmed the off-the-shelf approach but voiced concern about a potential political intervention blocking the deal.

www.defensenews.com

Yes Sir, any engine technology related to military purpose is prohibited for us.Same goes for other developing countries. We miss the train in 80s. Turkey and China pumping finance in this sector,but still they are far from standard set by US and EU. But if we join these two friends in their progress, then i hope its not too late. Very near future we will get engines ready for our Al Haider tank, Jinnah class frigates and AZM NGF.
Even today we can start about truck engine program JV with private sector and later on convert more civilian purpose technology for military grade programs.

 

[Scorpio]

IMO that is what is being worked upon, as we speak. No more upgrades at TAI beyond the 30, but at PACK InshaAllah.

30 as number or block ?

 

[Khafee]

30 as number or block ?

Number

 

[Cookie Monster]

Number

To think that such upgrades could happen locally in Pak...
...with Turkey...they have long had that ability since being NATO member and all. To think that Pakistan would be able to have that...that too at a time when Pak/US relationship has seen a considerable deterioration than in the past...
...geopolitics is a complex and unpredictable game.

 

[Khafee]

To think that such upgrades could happen locally in Pak...
...with Turkey...they have long had that ability since being NATO member and all. To think that Pakistan would be able to have that...that too at a time when Pak/US relationship has seen a considerable deterioration than in the past...
...geopolitics is a complex and unpredictable game.

True, could not agree with you more.

Lets pray InShaAllah this materializes.

 

[Junaid]

To think that such upgrades could happen locally in Pak...
...with Turkey...they have long had that ability since being NATO member and all. To think that Pakistan would be able to have that...that too at a time when Pak/US relationship has seen a considerable deterioration than in the past...
...geopolitics is a complex and unpredictable game.

Well truth be told, eventhe last upgrades were to take place at Kamara after our techs had gained the relevant know how with the upgrades that took place in the u.s.
Now with wealth of experience gained while working on the upgrade program in the u.s n than turkey.
Their is no reason why it can't happen in Pakistan.

 

[Khafee]

Well truth be told, eventhe last upgrades were to take place at Kamara after our techs had gained the relevant know how with the upgrades that took place in the u.s.
Now with wealth of experience gained while working on the upgrade program in the u.s n than turkey.
Their is no reason why it can't happen in Pakistan.

I think the point that evil cookie is implying. is not "technical", but "political."


Note: Evil cookie, since just looking at is his name gives me sugar cravings