Acquisition of J-15 for PAF- Air Superiority & Deep Strike Platfrom

[Araz]

Hi Araz, thank you for telling me to get off my high horse. Not sure if that helps this conversation. We have a professional who demonstrably does not know the basics of naval warfare making broad statements and when disagreed - claims my statements are like Indian statements.

If you look at his posts (and I can quote them extensively if you like), he demonstrates he has no idea about basic PN requirements, basic ideas about SLOCs. I've politely tried to explain them but his reaction has been ad hominem.

An educated person is one who knows the limits of their knowledge. This professional doesn't. He makes factually inaccurate statements and claims PN is so superior professionally to the IN that massive disparity in forces would allow PN to overcome them.

Yet, he is not even a naval officer. And if hypothetically he was, how can a PN officer know how professional or unprofessional the IN is? This whole conversation ends up in ridiculous absurdity.

Saying Pakistani naval warships today are not outgunned - is childish. It shows that this PA former officer is not professional and does not have a grip on reality. Which itself is evidence contrary to the one he is making - that Pak armed forces are so professional that even after being massively outnumbered and outgunned as the PN is - they can somehow pull of an upset.

If Pak military officers are a reflection of this kind of childish mindset, one can only pray for the next war. Sun Tzu states:

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Where does that leave Pakistan armed forces professionalism?

Instead of telling me to get off my high horse and me telling you to get off your high horse, why not have a constructive, pleasant conversation like mature adults? Rather accusations of sounding like an Indian statement or weak convictions that elicit emotional responses.

My brother.
Firstly let me start my post by sincerely apologizing to you for my rather rude behaviour. We all are prone to stress and sometimes it gets the better of us.
If arguments, solid proof and logical statements always ended up convincing everyone, then I assure you no one would have remained non muslim in Mecca in the 13 years that Rasool allah SAW preached there. However sometimes in spite of both minds being of equal calibre wires get crossed and messages are read incorrectly. I always find that you are better off disengaging and not responding further. It raises your blood pressure and the other side gets more irate as well.
What you do from now on is upto you. I know I sleep very easy because of this one basic principle, even when my Mrs is trying to educate me in my own field having read this brilliant article on the internet from an unknown source. And of course what do I know having has merely 35 years of experience.
A
Kindest regards and once again sincerest apologies.
A
PS: sorry for the off topic post.
A

 

[TomCat]

Jf-17 Raad intergation????

How old is this pic

 

[Araz]

Pakistan has 4 dual use transport / AAR platforms, and 3 PAF air commands. So, what our good friend Araz is suggesting is PAF dedicating all AAR assets to keep JF-17s airborne to protect SLOCS many nautical miles away from Pakistani shores.

This would allow a handful of JF-17s to remain refueled to protect SLOCs, while dedicating the entire AAR capacity to this task.

How would a handful of JF-17s hold out against large numbers of IAF FLANKERS and aircraft carrier borne MiG-29s?

Every time they engage, they have to fly back, refueling on their way in or/and out.

Who will protect these AAR assets? More JF-17s? How will they loiter nearby? Refuel from the tankers? That would reduce the handful of aircraft that the AAR platforms can sustain.

Go to any professional forum of non desis and ask them how realistic or practical this scenario is. They will get you off your high horse real quick.

Any neutral naval professional will tell you PN is outnumbered and outgunned. That they will not be able to maintain SLOCs. That the best they can do is protect their shores. That's it. Rest of these unqualified opinions simply make Pakistani military professionals look bad.

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not utter. Show me where I have suggested that ALL AAR assetts should be put to use under Southern command. However, if you take this route, let us play this further.
PAF indeed has 5 commands. The 4th command is air defence so AAR platforms are irrelevant to it. The strategic air Command's role need not be discussed as other than nuke delivery I remain unaware of its role.
The Northern air command because of the area it covers MAY need AAR especially over Kashmir. However looking at most of the Air bases on both sides the distances are short. To the best of my knowledge PAF did not utiloze AARs during 27/02. As such one wonders what the role of the AAR would be. The same remains the case with Central air command where there does not appear to be a clear cut necessity for the AAR platform. However the Soutern AC will cover all the Ops over the arabian sea. These are longer loitering times with heavier armaments so the need for AAR platform. It is within the remit of the Southern AC so an AAR platform can be deployed.
You have alluded to the need for defending the AAR. My understanding is that AARs fill up platforms soon after lift off. Planes generally consume 1/3 of their fuel in take off. There are additional difficulties when taking off with a full load. It is generally assumed that a plane will take off with 1/3rd tank but a full weapon load get filled immediately after take off and then proceed to its destination. No one ever sends an AAR platform to the centre of battle field to refuel planes. Similarly closer to shores on the way back they can take a bit of fuel if needed and land.
I understand the need for a twin engined platform but cash constraints and availability of a suitable platform remains a problem. J15 may wellnot be released due to copy right issues. I understand everyone has a view point contrary to mine and I will be very happy to hear that PAF has J11/15/16 in its inventory but to me it seems unlikely.
A

 

[Crystal-Clear]

Mey to roz is forum per her kuch hours baad sirf ye dekhney ata hu k shayed ab agaya ho PAKISTAN ka J-15 . ??..
.
.
or phir yahan essay jitni lambi posts perh k wapis chala jata ??.

 

[Khafee]

They also give some other weird reasons like.
Why would you send a 60mil worth of a jet on a bombing mission when you can do the same with a Mirage.
PAF has a local rebuild facility and they don't want to fire those hundreds of workers.
PAF has decades of experience and tactics on mirage and they don't wanna waste it. etc
The main reason why PAF isn't retiring Mirages is because they don't have money. It's not that they are completely obsolete. Mirages can actually be a very good platform for unguided bombing in a full-scale war after the removal of air defense systems. But expecting them to intrude in Indian air space where there are S300s, S400s like air defence systems or target the Indian Naval assets while facing the upgraded Mig29s with HMD and bvr missiles where our Mirages have little to no EW capabilities. Looks overconfidence to me.

I say move them to the Western border, they are enough for Afg & iran.

 

[Khafee]

Mey to roz is forum per her kuch hours baad sirf ye dekhney ata hu k shayed ab agaya ho PAKISTAN ka J-15 . ??..
.
.
or phir yahan essay jitni lambi posts perh k wapis chala jata ??.

Have faith in the Almighty, you wont be dissapointed

 

[Old boy]

Have faith in the Almighty, you wont be dissapointed

Wabista reh shajer say umeed a bahaar rakhh.That day lookes very near when we will see this jet landing in PAKISTAN.INSHA ALLAH

 

[Thorough Pro]

You missed the point!

Whether its the mechanic himself or the OEM, they are both related to the same field. Point being which civil department in Pakistan run by civies can you present for being even at 70% of its benchmark performance level?

Pakistan military might not be perfect (they too come from the same society) but at least they have been doing their job well despite serious lapses in foreign policy, judiciary, law & order and economy, and all these are very much related to the security situation.

Hi,

It is neither---.

The car mechanic is given the tools as per the conditions placed by the manufacturer.

The manufacturer decides if the tools ought to be metric or be standard---. Then what type of tools.

Do you need a flat head screw driver or a philips screw driver for the hose clamp tool specially designed for that purpose---. There are different kind of screw drivers

Then there are so many different kinds of wrenches that the manufacturer wants to be used to remove nuts and bolts and bolts or nuts of different head designs---.

different types of bolt heads - Google Search

Then there are long and short wrenches----open ended---ring wrenches---for brake line wrenches---.

German cars have different head designs for the bolts---.

So---even though the mechanic orders the parts---seemingly---but as a matter of fact he has to pick the tools to work for a certain car---and where he has no control of limiting his purchase---.

 

[Armchair]

The major barrier I see to defense and industrial development is the organizational dystopia of putting armed forces officers in charge or HIT, KSEW, etc. Had they been run by technocrats (i.e. engineers, architects) or spun off into publicly traded corporations, Pakistan would have reached the stars by now.

I think China is investing in a big way to shore up PN to protect their trade routes and strategic supply line. They want to ensure that a blockade cannot be imposed to cut off China both at the Malacca Straits and at Gwadar.

This is the basic raison de etre for the large scale purchases of the PN, which are likely to be heavily subsidized by China.

 

[Counter-Errorist]

The major barrier I see to defense and industrial development is the organizational dystopia of putting armed forces officers in charge or HIT, KSEW, etc. Had they been run by technocrats (i.e. engineers, architects) or spun off into publicly traded corporations, Pakistan would have reached the stars by now.

Pakistan is filled with technocrat-run companies. You don't hear about them because they couldn't navigate the ground realities of running a big business in Pakistan. The only ones that manage to rise up that level are corrupt to the core. Armed forces are the most successful institution in the Pakistani. They are lead by merit, proper leadership, management and discipline.

 

[Aadi]

When we suggest MIRAGES replacement, main thing people say it's not the replacement and the reasons they give is dual engine and also J 15 or J 16 can carry BVR and few others. I am not that big of an aviation expert but I have some common sense. In my opinion other than huge monstrous strategic bombers like B 1 and B 52 of USA and the ones used by Russia and China every jet should have BVR I mean jets like SU 34 or J 16 or F 15 EX. Because when bombing the shit out of your enemy you should have weaponry to engage enemy jets in the Air also.

And as for single engine and dual engine issue, as world is entering the era of 5th and soon 6th Generation you simply can't stick to single engine policy for long now.

USAF demonstrated this capability in iraq war when f15's were going for bombing mission, on their way iraqi fighter intercepted them f15 fired BVR, shot down iraqi fighter jet and continued its bombing mission.

 

[Armchair]

It would be hard for Mirages or even JF-17s to play a2a and a2g in the same mission because there aren't enough hard points and fuel isn't enough without pods. As brother Araz notes, F-15s could do it. J-15s can too. both are at a size and capability that allows much greater mission flexibility.

Integrating Ra'ad would be no problem. The main problem arises when Westerns weapons need to talk to Eastern ones, or vice versa.

 

[Mastankhan]

USAF demonstrated this capability in iraq war when f15's were going for bombing mission, on their way iraqi fighter intercepted them f15 fired BVR, shot down iraqi fighter jet and continued its bombing mission.

Hi,

I would really doubt it happened in that manner---. There could be F15's for strike mission and their support aircraft for air superiority missions. In air combat you have no clue where you might end up within seconds---.

The strike aircraft are dedicated to strike mission---thus keeping their focus and resources for the task at hand.

 

[Armchair]

Interesting reply want to share from elsewhere. Mirage Battle Commander on a potential J-15 purchase:

2 big squadron to support the south eastern front as Air superiority fighter's with JF-17 being the work horse while F-16's are focusing on the north eastern and eastern fronts will force the Indian's to come there knees. Twin in PAF will be as big of a move as PAF purchasing the first F-16's in the 80's- Twins will be phenomenal and will compliment Jf-17 like icing on cake.

 

[Counter-Errorist]

I would really doubt it happened in that manner---. There could be F15's for strike mission and their support aircraft for air superiority missions. In air combat you have no clue where you might end up within seconds---.

Like getting bombed by an F-15 - while flying an Mi-24?

That time an F-15E shot down an Iraqi Mi-24 attack helicopter with a 2000lb laser-guided bomb - The Aviation Geek Club