JF-17 related news.

[Araz]

total bull''''''

WS13E's wet thrust is around 100kn RD93MA'S only is at 86kn, we even saw blk3 prototype taking off WITHOUT AFTERBURNERS in december with WS13E

Total bakwas............as for maintenance, whenever u induct something new, u need to have better facilities to handle it, its natural!!! SOMEBODY has given a very bhoodi excuse. What about J10s, J15s, F16 Blk70's GE F110?? wont their engines need maintenance facilities?
What load of crap

Seems somebody's pockets r being filled in PAF by Russians.

Even F16 does not get off the tarmac without afterburners.
A

 

[Blackbirdz!]

what a load of crap......

Here is a Comment from this same video;

Vic Multani;
The Super 7 project name was kept to hide the true identity of the JF17 design till the program got well under way---. All designs of Super 7 were wiped out and a new design came up. Prior to restarting work on the JF17---Paf had evaluated the Grippen, Paf also had evaluated the F20 tiger shark at one time and looked well at the F18 as well. The original EW package and radar on this aircraft was to be french 'Thales' but the french refused as they had a bigger deal on the Rafale coming up with india. So---Paf had to search for another package from elsewhere. There is no similarity to the mig21 in this aircraft---neither the position of the wings----the fuselage---the tail---the front or the back---or any other design other than that the mig21 and the jf17 both fly. Millenium 7 if you found out how deep was Paf's influence in building this aircraft---you will be shocked---. You will also be surprised how far this influence went in the designs of 'other' chinese aircraft. Paf had flown with and against many a european air forces and off course the USAF. Chinese had no experience in a modern day fighter aircraft---. Incidently the project director AVM Latif R 1 hour interview is only in URDU---wish it was in english---. The DSI was pakistani influenced design---. Paf made 40 + recommendations for changes in the J10---one of them was DSI---. many a times the chinese got upset tired of the changes that the Paf wanted---way ahead of the chinese capabilities---but still ended up finding a way to do it---. Please remember---Paf had more exposure to the western equipment than china. Paf operated the F16's---had tested the Mirage F1's---2000 and checked out the Rafale as well---Grippen---F18's---f20's. The chinese did build it---but what the Paf wanted---. The end product was way ahead of what the chinese had in mind in 2001-02-03---.

 

[Blackbirdz!]

Even F16 does not get off the tarmac without afterburners.
A

sure.........but im talking abt blk3 its ahead of them in T/W with WS13E......and we all saw, jf17 did get off WITHOUT afterburners in clean configuration with exception of two wing tip A to A missiles it carried.

 

[Blackbirdz!]

How do you infer that? RD93 had thrust more than 86Kn and T:W ratio of 1.09 was reported widely by reliable people like Muradk and Bilal Khan 777 who were both X PAF. The reasons given are in line with what PAF has been saying since 2012. WS13 is not mature and PAF will not take that risk. Your statement regarding someone lining their pockets needs reconsideration.
A

why dont u first check the wet and dry both thrust amount of WS13's ''E'' version which was made for export and PAF use. RD93MA's (updated RD93 made for PAF by klimov) both dry and wet thrust is LESS then WS13E which is around 100kn, that true figure of RD93's FADEC version called RD93MA's still less in wet thrust even if its more then 86kn as u said, still cant reach 100kn

 

[Mastankhan]

what a load of crap......

Here is a Comment from this same video;

Vic Multani;
The Super 7 project name was kept to hide the true identity of the JF17 design till the program got well under way---. All designs of Super 7 were wiped out and a new design came up. Prior to restarting work on the JF17---Paf had evaluated the Grippen, Paf also had evaluated the F20 tiger shark at one time and looked well at the F18 as well. The original EW package and radar on this aircraft was to be french 'Thales' but the french refused as they had a bigger deal on the Rafale coming up with india. So---Paf had to search for another package from elsewhere. There is no similarity to the mig21 in this aircraft---neither the position of the wings----the fuselage---the tail---the front or the back---or any other design other than that the mig21 and the jf17 both fly. Millenium 7 if you found out how deep was Paf's influence in building this aircraft---you will be shocked---. You will also be surprised how far this influence went in the designs of 'other' chinese aircraft. Paf had flown with and against many a european air forces and off course the USAF. Chinese had no experience in a modern day fighter aircraft---. Incidently the project director AVM Latif R 1 hour interview is only in URDU---wish it was in english---. The DSI was pakistani influenced design---. Paf made 40 + recommendations for changes in the J10---one of them was DSI---. many a times the chinese got upset tired of the changes that the Paf wanted---way ahead of the chinese capabilities---but still ended up finding a way to do it---. Please remember---Paf had more exposure to the western equipment than china. Paf operated the F16's---had tested the Mirage F1's---2000 and checked out the Rafale as well---Grippen---F18's---f20's. The chinese did build it---but what the Paf wanted---. The end product was way ahead of what the chinese had in mind in 2001-02-03---.

Hi,

Oh damn---. Those are good comments. @Khafee ---maybe you should invite this guy Vic Multani to come write on this forum.

 

[Khafee]

what a load of crap......

Here is a Comment from this same video;

Vic Multani;
The Super 7 project name was kept to hide the true identity of the JF17 design till the program got well under way---. All designs of Super 7 were wiped out and a new design came up. Prior to restarting work on the JF17---Paf had evaluated the Grippen, Paf also had evaluated the F20 tiger shark at one time and looked well at the F18 as well. The original EW package and radar on this aircraft was to be french 'Thales' but the french refused as they had a bigger deal on the Rafale coming up with india. So---Paf had to search for another package from elsewhere. There is no similarity to the mig21 in this aircraft---neither the position of the wings----the fuselage---the tail---the front or the back---or any other design other than that the mig21 and the jf17 both fly. Millenium 7 if you found out how deep was Paf's influence in building this aircraft---you will be shocked---. You will also be surprised how far this influence went in the designs of 'other' chinese aircraft. Paf had flown with and against many a european air forces and off course the USAF. Chinese had no experience in a modern day fighter aircraft---. Incidently the project director AVM Latif R 1 hour interview is only in URDU---wish it was in english---. The DSI was pakistani influenced design---. Paf made 40 + recommendations for changes in the J10---one of them was DSI---. many a times the chinese got upset tired of the changes that the Paf wanted---way ahead of the chinese capabilities---but still ended up finding a way to do it---. Please remember---Paf had more exposure to the western equipment than china. Paf operated the F16's---had tested the Mirage F1's---2000 and checked out the Rafale as well---Grippen---F18's---f20's. The chinese did build it---but what the Paf wanted---. The end product was way ahead of what the chinese had in mind in 2001-02-03---.

Vic Multani is 100% right.

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

Oh damn---. Those are good comments. @Khafee ---maybe you should invite this guy Vic Multani to come write on this forum.

I have spoken to him, he is busy in real life, so cant make it. But we are in touch.

 

[Araz]

sure.........but im talking abt blk3 its ahead of them in T/W with WS13E......and we all saw, jf17 did get off WITHOUT afterburners in clean configuration with exception of two wing tip A to A missiles it carried.

You saw? Means you have an actual video rather than the 2 photographs which were released. If so please release them on the board and I will duly acknowledge your point of view.
Regards.

 

[Araz]

why dont u first check the wet and dry both thrust amount of WS13's ''E'' version which was made for export and PAF use. RD93MA's (updated RD93 made for PAF by klimov) both dry and wet thrust is LESS then WS13E which is around 100kn, that true figure of RD93's FADEC version called RD93MA's still less in wet thrust even if its more then 86kn as u said, still cant reach 100kn

When you choose an engine is wet and dry thrust the only consideration? For instance GE has persistently over the last decade produced higher thrust engines than P&W. Yet PAF Chooses to fly P&W.
Chinese declaration of thrust is not the only factor. Engine reliability remains a problem. PAF has set itself up for RD:series and now has in house overhauling in place. Replacing engines mid programme with fleet wide change plus any adjustments and retesting are all additional expenses which mean time and money which we do not have.
Maintenance becomes a nightmare with two engines and part replacement brcomes an issue. We have at least one crash where a part from one plane was mistakenly put into another.
What is the reliability of WS13 and which platform is it being used in for us to assess its reliability?. Reliability of jet engines is a very touchy subject and one of the main reasons forces do not change engines easily.
You have wrongly insinuated that pockets were lined to make this decision. You have not proven this point either. I think this was one of the main reasons for my initial response. It seems unfair to insinuate misdeeds without proof.
A

 

[Armchair]

I think the analysis of Milenium 7 still has some value. Just watched it. My first takeaway is to see how a Western analyst evaluates our aircraft and the depth of their research. Considerably behind the curve compared to us, who have the same material to chew on.

I think his analysis can be summarized as "highly maneuverable jack of all trades, great value for money, quantity over quality".

He does spot that the block 3 has sensor fusion - basically the same tech (to a lesser or greater extent) as on the Rafale and F-35.

I don't understand this hullaballoo about engines and comparing engines (RD or WS), its way above my head and pay grade.

I think the future for Pakistan is with the best mass produced engine China is going for - the WS-10 /WS-15 which will see service with their FLANKERS, J-10s and J-20s. This is why I'm proposing that it makes more sense to see the Azm as a single engine conventional type than a twin engine J-31 type.

 

[Blackbirdz!]

You saw? Means you have an actual video rather than the 2 photographs which were released. If so please release them on the board and I will duly acknowledge your point of view.
Regards.

ok whatever you say !!!!!!

 

[Blackbirdz!]

When you choose an engine is wet and dry thrust the only consideration? For instance GE has persistently over the last decade produced higher thrust engines than P&W. Yet PAF Chooses to fly P&W.
Chinese declaration of thrust is not the only factor. Engine reliability remains a problem. PAF has set itself up for RD:series and now has in house overhauling in place. Replacing engines mid programme with fleet wide change plus any adjustments and retesting are all additional expenses which mean time and money which we do not have.
Maintenance becomes a nightmare with two engines and part replacement brcomes an issue. We have at least one crash where a part from one plane was mistakenly put into another.
What is the reliability of WS13 and which platform is it being used in for us to assess its reliability?. Reliability of jet engines is a very touchy subject and one of the main reasons forces do not change engines easily.
You have wrongly insinuated that pockets were lined to make this decision. You have not proven this point either. I think this was one of the main reasons for my initial response. It seems unfair to insinuate misdeeds without proof.
A

who told u this nonsense? some random chap in PDF? Do u even have a proof of that?

Another thing u missed is that we have offer to produce WS13E at home either under licence or TOT!
There is a problem with RD93, that is its export to countries like Ukraine etc..........Putin was already creating troubles with RD93's re-export to 3rd countries.........besides, this Russia is also selling S400 to india despite our concerns of the alteration of regional balance of power! This S400 is a severe threat to the protection of GB area from where CPEC also crossed into China!!!!!!!!!

If this deal is done for Russian relations and Russian appeasement, rest assured, Putin has made it clear way back in 2015 that india is time tested friend of Russia and no weapons will be sold to Pakistan which will harm indian interests, besides Russia itself was one of the countries that vetoed the Kashmir resolution last year. This country is an Indian Vessel state it has always been.

Read and learn;

China Isolating Itself Globally by Raising Kashmir Issue Again at UNSC - Indian Analysts

New Delhi (Sputnik): India and Pakistan have been locked in a war of words for the last five months over New Delhi’s decision to scrap the special quasi-autonomous status of Jammu and Kashmir and the subsequent creation of two federally...

sputniknews.com

If these Russian relations r so important, then instead of appeasing them, focus on the area and place where they actually benefit us; AFGHANISTAN..........BEYOND THAT NO!

 

[baqai]

what a load of crap......

Here is a Comment from this same video;

Vic Multani;
The Super 7 project name was kept to hide the true identity of the JF17 design till the program got well under way---. All designs of Super 7 were wiped out and a new design came up. Prior to restarting work on the JF17---Paf had evaluated the Grippen, Paf also had evaluated the F20 tiger shark at one time and looked well at the F18 as well. The original EW package and radar on this aircraft was to be french 'Thales' but the french refused as they had a bigger deal on the Rafale coming up with india. So---Paf had to search for another package from elsewhere. There is no similarity to the mig21 in this aircraft---neither the position of the wings----the fuselage---the tail---the front or the back---or any other design other than that the mig21 and the jf17 both fly. Millenium 7 if you found out how deep was Paf's influence in building this aircraft---you will be shocked---. You will also be surprised how far this influence went in the designs of 'other' chinese aircraft. Paf had flown with and against many a european air forces and off course the USAF. Chinese had no experience in a modern day fighter aircraft---. Incidently the project director AVM Latif R 1 hour interview is only in URDU---wish it was in english---. The DSI was pakistani influenced design---. Paf made 40 + recommendations for changes in the J10---one of them was DSI---. many a times the chinese got upset tired of the changes that the Paf wanted---way ahead of the chinese capabilities---but still ended up finding a way to do it---. Please remember---Paf had more exposure to the western equipment than china. Paf operated the F16's---had tested the Mirage F1's---2000 and checked out the Rafale as well---Grippen---F18's---f20's. The chinese did build it---but what the Paf wanted---. The end product was way ahead of what the chinese had in mind in 2001-02-03---.

most of these things have been verified by ACM Latif in his interview it was a very nice talk to listen to

 

[Araz]

who told u this nonsense? some random chap in PDF? Do u even have a proof of that?

Another thing u missed is that we have offer to produce WS13E at home either under licence or TOT!
There is a problem with RD93, that is its export to countries like Ukraine etc..........Putin was already creating troubles with RD93's re-export to 3rd countries.........besides, this Russia is also selling S400 to india despite our concerns of the alteration of regional balance of power! This S400 is a severe threat to the protection of GB area from where CPEC also crossed into China!!!!!!!!!

If this deal is done for Russian relations and Russian appeasement, rest assured, Putin has made it clear way back in 2015 that india is time tested friend of Russia and no weapons will be sold to Pakistan which will harm indian interests, besides Russia itself was one of the countries that vetoed the Kashmir resolution last year. This country is an Indian Vessel state it has always been.

Read and learn;

China Isolating Itself Globally by Raising Kashmir Issue Again at UNSC - Indian Analysts

New Delhi (Sputnik): India and Pakistan have been locked in a war of words for the last five months over New Delhi’s decision to scrap the special quasi-autonomous status of Jammu and Kashmir and the subsequent creation of two federally...

sputniknews.com

If these Russian relations r so important, then instead of appeasing them, focus on the area and place where they actually benefit us; AFGHANISTAN..........BEYOND THAT NO!

who told u this nonsense? some random chap in PDF? Do u even have a proof of that?

Another thing u missed is that we have offer to produce WS13E at home either under licence or TOT!
There is a problem with RD93, that is its export to countries like Ukraine etc..........Putin was already creating troubles with RD93's re-export to 3rd countries.........besides, this Russia is also selling S400 to india despite our concerns of the alteration of regional balance of power! This S400 is a severe threat to the protection of GB area from where CPEC also crossed into China!!!!!!!!!

If this deal is done for Russian relations and Russian appeasement, rest assured, Putin has made it clear way back in 2015 that india is time tested friend of Russia and no weapons will be sold to Pakistan which will harm indian interests, besides Russia itself was one of the countries that vetoed the Kashmir resolution last year. This country is an Indian Vessel state it has always been.

Read and learn;

China Isolating Itself Globally by Raising Kashmir Issue Again at UNSC - Indian Analysts

New Delhi (Sputnik): India and Pakistan have been locked in a war of words for the last five months over New Delhi’s decision to scrap the special quasi-autonomous status of Jammu and Kashmir and the subsequent creation of two federally...

sputniknews.com

If these Russian relations r so important, then instead of appeasing them, focus on the area and place where they actually benefit us; AFGHANISTAN..........BEYOND THAT NO!

I will disengage from this debate as I think you are not being civil. My point still remains.
A. WS13 remains untested and there is not a single platform it is being used on other than one testbed JFT.
B. There has been no independent confirmation of the reliability of chinese engines which is a huge question mark over the aviation industry. All estimates of WS10 engines which are out via independent sources show lesser times between overhauls than AL31. To the best of my knowledge there are no figures available for WS13 on open source media. I would be happy to be provided info to the contrary.
C. PAF actions have been those which it has steadfastly stuck to since the first article on JFT in Paris came out ie support for continuing with RD series.
D. You have with one strike maligned the whole PAF/PAC setup by accusing them of lining their pockets without any proof and you are blowing hot and cold as I have questioned your assertion. To date you have not provided a single bit of evidence in this particular regard.
E. I know of no modern jet that does not engage after burners in take off and your assertion that the block3 does not need it is unproven and blatently wrong.
Can any of the Moderators review this man and my posts and decide this issue before this progresses to a slugfest.
@Khafee
@Gripen9 .
A

 

[Gripen9]

I will disengage from this debate as I think you are not being civil. My point still remains.
A. WS13 remains untested and there is not a single platform it is being used on other than one testbed JFT.
B. There has been no independent confirmation of the reliability of chinese engines which is a huge question mark over the aviation industry. All estimates of WS10 engines which are out via independent sources show lesser times between overhauls than AL31. To the best of my knowledge there are no figures available for WS13 on open source media. I would be happy to be provided info to the contrary.
C. PAF actions have been those which it has steadfastly stuck to since the first article on JFT in Paris came out ie support for continuing with RD series.
D. You have with one strike maligned the whole PAF/PAC setup by accusing them of lining their pockets without any proof and you are blowing hot and cold as I have questioned your assertion. To date you have not provided a single bit of evidence in this particular regard.
E. I know of no modern jet that does not engage after burners in take off and your assertion that the block3 does not need it is unproven and blatently wrong.
Can any of the Moderators review this man and my posts and decide this issue before this progresses to a slugfest.
@Khafee
@Gripen9 .
A

Blk 3 will have RD93. PAF is not going for WS13 at the moment.