Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72 | Page 147 | World Defense

Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

HRK

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Let's just assume tomorrow we get approval for Block 70 F16s along with all the gadgets and everything on our wish list. What I am worried about is the Indian response.
They will show up in Washington for their Randi rona and demand F35 to counter these F16s. I have no doubt in my mind that after India's drama with China they will get full sympethaic ear in Congress and for sure will get approval for F35s.
Then what? How are we going to counter F35? what options we will have to match F35? As far as J20 is concerned it doesn't seem to be any where near the F35 capability.
S-400 deal would the indication of for F-35 future for India .....

As of now I think they have only made payment of first instalment for S-400 system, one thing which seems important here is the US offer of THAAD system to India [Link] we should keep in mind THAAD is already installed in S.Korea and Japan is already in the process of purchase [link] these two are the countries of Indo Pacific region and Japan is the member the members of so call Quad group lead by US in that region. After current crisis in Ladakh region with China and who already operates S-400 and a sort of mild response of by Russia rather to support India could give the political direction the region.

If India has to play any part in US lead 'Indo'-Pacific she is required to have synergy with US allies of region not just politically but at Operational level, in this sense India's logistic support agreement with US and Australia does limit the joint and synergetic operations as India have weapon system of different origin rather than standard system of other member of Quad group.

Sooner or later India would have to make the decision about the Operational Synergy with Quad partners which mean obtaining the same weapon system having their infrastructure already exist in Indo-Pacific region THAAD and F-35 are already operational in that region and both systems are on offer to India as well

For us its is better IF India find herself occupied in Indo-Pacific region rather than engaged in MENAP region
 

capricorn5192

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"only if you could know what I know, only if you had seen what I have seen, you wouldn't be saying such immature stuff. It is an insult to those young & senior lads working their a***s off from 8 to 4; at times even more; to declare Azm a wet dream. You need to read\learn before you speak\write. Those doing research in labs outside PAC for Azm would love to give you a good reply calling their efforts a wet dream"

I could go on but I think you get the point.

I think the problem is lack of information regarding Project Azm being available to Public. Also he is right on one point that Pakistan does not have an eco system for developing a 5th Generation Aircraft. My understanding of Project Azm is that the design will be made and owned by PAC and necessary inputs/help will sought form wherever available like China, Turkey.

My two cents
 

Aadi

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Project Azm IMHO is nothing but another PAF wet dream. How's that if you may ask? Well, let me give you an example. At the time when the Muricans and the Russians were in a race to get to the moon first, a "scientist" from ZAMBIA (yes you heard it right) challenged to get to the moon first. We all know who got their first and that "scientist" faded into forever darkness.

Point here is that you have to have the knowledge, profound research capability, skills, expertise, technology, the capacity, a mature history of ac building, and most importantly truck loads of cash to develop a 5th gen AC. Pakistan, as of now has neither of them, at least not for the coming solid 20-yrs or so. You can't just go right away into building an "indigenous" 5th gen by simply being able to overhaul a 3rd gen mirage or partnering in 4th gen AC program.

The chinese have been building ac for at least 40-50yrs for now yet it took them almost 2 decades for an "operational" J20. The Americans have been building ac since "forever" yet they're struggling with their F35. The Russians have their own never ending problems with PAK-FA. Heck even the Japanese have been trying to make their own 5th gen from the last decade and getting nowhere. But here we have a country with very negligible ac building experience aiming to build an "indigenous' 5th gen AC all by itself.

They could have JV with the Chinese on J31 project, learn from it, and develop it further like they did in JF-17. But no, just by JVing in one project they thought they could build a stealth fighter in 15-18yrs. I'm afraid that this project would turn into a massive disappointment. The goons at the PAF has set a ticking embarrassment time bomb on their heads and on nation's head. There's a thin line btwn confidence and over confidence.

On a relatable reference, where's that nuclear submarine that we were building that was supposed to be ready by 2020?
COULD NOT AGREE MORE
 

Signalian

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Project Azm IMHO is nothing but another PAF wet dream. How's that if you may ask? Well, let me give you an example. At the time when the Muricans and the Russians were in a race to get to the moon first, a "scientist" from ZAMBIA (yes you heard it right) challenged to get to the moon first. We all know who got their first and that "scientist" faded into forever darkness.

Point here is that you have to have the knowledge, profound research capability, skills, expertise, technology, the capacity, a mature history of ac building, and most importantly truck loads of cash to develop a 5th gen AC. Pakistan, as of now has neither of them, at least not for the coming solid 20-yrs or so. You can't just go right away into building an "indigenous" 5th gen by simply being able to overhaul a 3rd gen mirage or partnering in 4th gen AC program.

The chinese have been building ac for at least 40-50yrs for now yet it took them almost 2 decades for an "operational" J20. The Americans have been building ac since "forever" yet they're struggling with their F35. The Russians have their own never ending problems with PAK-FA. Heck even the Japanese have been trying to make their own 5th gen from the last decade and getting nowhere. But here we have a country with very negligible ac building experience aiming to build an "indigenous' 5th gen AC all by itself.

They could have JV with the Chinese on J31 project, learn from it, and develop it further like they did in JF-17. But no, just by JVing in one project they thought they could build a stealth fighter in 15-18yrs. I'm afraid that this project would turn into a massive disappointment. The goons at the PAF has set a ticking embarrassment time bomb on their heads and on nation's head. There's a thin line btwn confidence and over confidence.

On a relatable reference, where's that nuclear submarine that we were building that was supposed to be ready by 2020?
Azm might look similar to J-31 with similar technology.
 

Counter-Errorist

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For us its is better IF India find herself occupied in Indo-Pacific region rather than engaged in MENAP region
Not sure I agree with that. As part of the Indo-Pacific alliance, India gets all the best western goodies - THAAD, F-35, F-15, Abrams, Chinooks, Apaches and whatnot. While we likely end up with sanctions. We either accept that our future war with India would be on very uneven playing field, or constrain our economy trying to get on par with them.

There's no way India gets any long-term success in the MENA region. We've had historically had better relations with most of them, and the common religious strands go a long way sustaining that relationship. India will continue to get even more right-wing and eventually end up a Hindu nationalist state. No country in MENA is going to be comfortable with that.
 

TomCat

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So this happens. I share "my" opinion regarding Project Azam based on the knowledge available publicly and my opinion was backed by a reasoning. Also my opinion was on the institution's mistake not an individual. However, I get hurled at personal level by a senior member



Gets an endorsement from the "administrator".



My response post (again not disrespectful and well thought out) "There's nothing wrong with pretending" Gets moderated and removed.

The senior member says he meant no disrespect but replying to other member post says "bat lga bhi di or mafi bhi mang li"



Again gets an endorsement from senior members and the administrator through likes. Another member shows up and hurls the most offensive personal level response possible publicly.



Gets endorsement from senior members and the administrator.

So basically this forum is less about "World Defense" and more about a propoganda platform to promote only a few. This is a forum where you cannot say that an institution is wrong or making a mistake unless you want to get called upon on personal level and have only your responses moderated. Also to be respected and get unrestrcited endorsement from Forum staff members you have to be a SUCK UP and have a G Sir mentality. I have only one word in response; dissapointed.

Dissapointed to see that a forum having a huge potential is getting canablized by a selected few for not providing fair platform for everyone. Dissapointed to see that the staff members mantaining this forum are biased and not doing the job they were intended to do.

I do not believe that this post will remain public or remains unmoderated because as I said before it doesn't go with a G Sir mentality and doesnt suck up to the moderators. Nevertheless, at least it will go through the eyes of the moderators which for me is enough to show them the mirror.

GREAT JOB GUYS!
You have insecurities bro,
Why do you consider yourself isolated here ?

My posts weren’t an offensive for you, Your post in the first place was a serious slap for the respective authorities involved heavily on AZM, The hundreds of geniuses working on it as we speak, And yet you, With no info of such work, Here criticize a project in it’s infancy, Like a Lady shouts at random people on streets, You should maybe have a recheck on your first post and then think why that triggered replies and endorsements.

The track record of PAC is highly satisfactory and I am sure that it will remain such, Things we know that are public like some systems and Thunders as well as Air launched systems, But many things are most probably behind the curtains, How can one criticize such an Org out of random ?

As for “G sir”, Not at all, I use the word Sir for elders even if i am talking to a cobbler (mochi) or some old man or most often to people that show Good use of Brain, So Once again, I am sorry if you felt offended by us.

Things can restart, You can forget what happened and act as a normal member, It is upon you, You have our respects as a Human.
 

Khafee

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Azm might look similar to J-31 with similar technology.
1592309338600.png
 

Counter-Errorist

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You have insecurities bro,
Why do you consider yourself isolated here ?

My posts weren’t an offensive for you, Your post in the first place was a serious slap for the respective authorities involved heavily on AZM, The hundreds of geniuses working on it as we speak, And yet you, With no info of such work, Here criticize a project in it’s infancy, Like a Lady shouts at random people on streets, You should maybe have a recheck on your first post and then think why that triggered replies and endorsements.

The track record of PAC is highly satisfactory and I am sure that it will remain such, Things we know that are public like some systems and Thunders as well as Air launched systems, But many things are most probably behind the curtains, How can one criticize such an Org out of random ?

As for “G sir”, Not at all, I use the word Sir for elders even if i am talking to a cobbler (mochi) or some old man or most often to people that show Good use of Brain, So Once again, I am sorry if you felt offended by us.

Things can restart, You can forget what happened and act as a normal member, It is upon you, You have our respects as a Human.
Compare PACs performance with HAL - which had all the world's money thrown at it, while PAC working tirelessly with a slim and fluctuating budget - after starting very later. PAC delivered, spectacularly. While HAL still struggles to get that dorrito's chip off a truck.
 

Khafee

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There could be input from Turkish TFX project also.
True!

But look at this pic, specifically the door after the wing. Pic looks PS'd. BUT if this capability is true, it would immensely help PAF.
 

Blackbirdz!

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True!

But look at this pic, spcifically the door after the wing. Pic looks PS'd. BUT if this capability is true, it would immensely help PAF.
what happened to those captured pilots? are these F16 being acquired in exchange for those?
 

HRK

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Not sure I agree with that. As part of the Indo-Pacific alliance, India gets all the best western goodies - THAAD, F-35, F-15, Abrams, Chinooks, Apaches and whatnot. While we likely end up with sanctions. We either accept that our future war with India would be on very uneven playing field, or constrain our economy trying to get on par with them.
It is true and happening even today if you note carefully US is enhancing Indian capabilities in certain domains which can act as force multiplier for example

- Sales of 11 C-17 global master, 6 C-130J, 15 Chinook helicopter are specifically enhancing the capabilities of Force Deployment and Logistic Capabilities, here important thing to note these capabilities were one of weakest link of Indian force posturing.

- Sales of Apache helicopter which is specifically design for Anti Armour Role, while sales of P-8 Poseidon for Anti-subrole keep in mind before the sales of these system India had no system even half as decent and capable as these systems in her inventory and most important thing is that these systems are direct counter to our offensive capabilities

- Approval for the sales of NASAM system to India is directly a counter our Cruise Missiles capabilities and again to an extent blunt our counter offensive capabilities

on the other hand IF we observe

- US is continuously denying the maintenance of our Anti armour capabilities by not only withholding of AH-1Z but by refusing to release the engines for T-129

- Sabotage of Ababeel Missile program

- By denying our F-16s fleet SOW and Anti-Ship weapon package

In short we can say that US is specifically targeting our warfighting capabilities by utilizing Political, Financial and Military means at her disposal

BUT

Most important thing is that the gap due to power imbalance which US is creating in the region is triggering the Instability at Conventional and Sub-Conventional level which in result will disturb the stability at Strategic level, here what we need to understand is that this power imbalance is creating a False Sense of Security in India under the influence of which India is trying to create the "New Normal" in the region both in terms of Politics and Military, removal of Article 370 related to Kashmir from Indian constitution and before that Balakot strike are the respective examples

Here in this scenario for us China emerge as a stabilizing factor as it undermine the Indian False Sense of Security, therefore it become necessary for India to deal with China first before to create a new normal in South Asian Region and for this India would have to engage herself more in Indo-Pacific region both in terms of Regional Politics and Militarily, so in that case military pressure on our eastern border could potentially decrease for sometime

There's no way India gets any long-term success in the MENA region. We've had historically had better relations with most of them, and the common religious strands go a long way sustaining that relationship. India will continue to get even more right-wing and eventually end up a Hindu nationalist state. No country in MENA is going to be comfortable with that.
NOT just MENA but MENAP (Middle East, North Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan), we need to understand that US is not leaving this region but making a Strategic Retreat to Rearrange the Forces and the Region, IF US has to survive as the only Superpower of the world then the current political map of MENAP region does not support US interests, it needs to be Redrawn in a manner that the Energy Flow and Trade Routes from the region could be denied to China and Russia for their future needs, this will make both China and Russia dependent on Europe and US for their Trade

Now you read the global map specially Eastern Pacific and MENAP region and see why US is increasing its presence in Pacific region while a big chunk of Middle East is under civil war and chaos but US is least bother to interfere, why US is supporting PTM and Baloch separatists in Af-Pak region while Kurds and Yazidis in Iraq and Syria, why US is supporting the annexation of West bank

There are many countries like Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait that would find it difficult to survive as per their current political map, crisis in Libya would affect Egypt and probably Tunisia and Algeria as well while any annexation of Palestinian land would cause effect on Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt as well as on Iran who already has expanded her influence well beyond her borders so any clash in Lebanon and annexation of west bank would also increase her influence.

So the point is US would favour the redrawn of the MENAP region as per her interest and interest of her Strategic Partners and IF India Find a Role in this Rearrangement and Redrawn of the region then we can probably understand what would be the outcome of an alliance of Hindutva India and Zionist Israel in the region, therefore it is better if India find itself more engae in the dealing with China then finding her role in MENAP region.
 
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