Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72 | Page 51 | World Defense

Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

Zeeman

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The only problem with the carrier version J15 is that it has a terrible safety record so far. Two crashes and two possible write offs out of 25 or so built so far.
Worries me a lot if we are getting this plane ...
 

Mastankhan

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Sir, why not just add more J15? then going for JH7.

Hi,

Utility---cost factor---. You can push china to give us the JH7's for under 5---10 mil a piece---so about 6-12 JH7's for 1---J15---.

JH7A are the proverbial SACRIFICIAL LAMBS---THEY ARE INEXPENSIVE---for really sacrificial missions---the best aircraft for the job---fly low---fly far---and strike and the extremely vulnerable & soft flank of the enemy---.

It is the only feasible aircraft that can hit the enemy far away---at its most vulnerable point with the proverbial SLEDGE HAMMER like ability for a minimum cost---.

If the news of the procurement of the J15 is true---then the purchase of the Jh7A becomes a must---.

First of all---24 J15's will give very good coverage---it will be like 100 million an aircraft with support & spares---so---24 aircraft would be around 2.4 billion dollars---.

So---our air superiority is covered now but at 70 million a pop for the air craft---.

With air superiority---we also need heavy strike capability as well---. That we can have for between 5-10 million per aircraft in the form of JH7A's---.

Why do you think we bought the Egyptian Mirage 5's---when we had the JF17's and the BLK52's---that can do strike missions---?

It was for the same reason---cost factor---we keep our tier 1 aircraft the BLK52 and the JF17 for intercept and air superiority mode over land and designated the job of ground strikes to the mirage 3 /5's---.

I have stated it for long that the strike platform does not need to be as advanced as the air superiority---two different roles---needs two different types of aircraft---.

Same with the J15 and the JH7A's---why send a 70 million dollar machine into the hot zone for a job that can be done by a 5-10 million dollar aircraft.



You put these two together---and you will hear the scream coming from the enemy camp---.
 
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maxpane

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J-15_cockpit.jpg
cockpit of j 15
 

MystryMan

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Hi,

Utility---cost factor---. You can push china to give us the JH7's for under 5---10 mil a piece---so about 6-12 JH7's for 1---J15---.

JH7A are the proverbial SACRIFICIAL LAMBS---THEY ARE INEXPENSIVE---for really sacrificial missions---the best aircraft for the job---fly low---fly far---and strike and the extremely vulnerable & soft flank of the enemy---.

It is the only feasible aircraft that can hit the enemy far away---at its most vulnerable point with the proverbial SLEDGE HAMMER like ability for a minimum cost---.

If the news of the procurement of the J15 is true---then the purchase of the Jh7A becomes a must---.

First of all---24 J15's will give very good coverage---it will be like 100 million an aircraft with support & spares---so---24 aircraft would be around 2.4 billion dollars---.

So---our air superiority is covered now but at 70 million a pop for the air craft---.

With air superiority---we also need heavy strike capability as well---. That we can have for between 5-10 million per aircraft in the form of JH7A's---.

Why do you think we bought the Egyptian Mirage 5's---when we had the JF17's and the BLK52's---that can do strike missions---?

It was for the same reason---cost factor---we keep our tier 1 aircraft the BLK52 and the JF17 for intercept and air superiority mode over land and designated the job of ground strikes to the mirage 3 /5's---.

I have stated it for long that the strike platform does not need to be as advanced as the air superiority---two different roles---needs two different types of aircraft---.

Same with the J15 and the JH7A's---why send a 70 million dollar machine into the hot zone for a job that can be done by a 5-10 million dollar aircraft.



You put these two together---and you will hear the scream coming from the enemy camp---.


Thanks for explaining in detail sir.
 

Ghessan

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F-16 - 90% YES
EuroFighter - Back burner, no funds. The Turks messed this one up for PAF. Had they not jumped in and started looking at the used Italian ones, the financial terms would have been in PAF's favor.

J-10 / J-15 / J-16 = ONE platform has been agreed upon in principle, subject to further tech & financial negotiations. Which One? (:-)
Do give a reason / guess why you think it would be that platform.

thanks for the good news,
don't you think with this development there is to be a separate thread?
besides when is this going to be announced officially?

for F-16s is it pending due to further developments on Pakistan commitments to US and what are the prospects on those developments?
OR is it that on Pakistan response to the offer, it will be announced?
 

Caprxl

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J-11 progressed into J-16.

J-15 due to being a carrier borne a/c had to make some compromises. Without the carrier restrictions, it will be on par or better than the J-16.


So, those Restrictions will be completely removed? ( I hope no compromises made/left as I was hoping it to be J - 16 ) ?? Question is won't it need any major Design changes & Testing ?? Or the minors will do just fine ?

PS: Hi , this my 1st post on WD, though I have been following these threads since respected @Khafee told on PDF to Google :)
 

Counter-Errorist

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Hi

Paf can have a joint operational aircraft carrier in the arabian seas with the chinese.

That sounds problematic. Ships in international waters are essentially considered to be the land (and rules) of the flag they've hoisted.

If we have a Feb-like skirmish with India and attack Indian territory from the carrier - did the attack come from Pakistan or China?
China will unlikely allow us to run attacks from their ships when they're not at war with India directly.

Though the amount of crapped pants across the border after hearing this probably makes it worth it.
 

Wolf-PK

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J-11 progressed into J-16.

J-15 due to being a carrier borne a/c had to make some compromises. Without the carrier restrictions, it will be on par or better than the J-16.

Sir how about Avionics specially AESA? J-16 is considered having one the best AESA in entire J lot?
 

Counter-Errorist

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Interestingly, China is looking to replace the J-15s because it has proven to be unreliable as a carrier-borne aircraft.

It requires a ski-jump platform for taking off from carriers. China is looking to replace ski-jumps with flat-tops on their carriers.
At 17,500 kg, they are probably the heaviest carrier-borne aircrafts.
Due to it's weight, it needs to launch with lighter fuel and lesser payload to be able to launch from carriers.
It's flight control issues tend to show up during carrier take-off and landing as well.

Khafee suggests we'll get about 24. That's about as many as China has produced.

So looks like China will be handing off the entire fleet over to us and focus on F-31 carrier-variant, while we get a land-based J-15 without any of its problems.

Win-win!
 

Caprxl

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That sounds problematic. Ships in international waters are essentially considered to be the land (and rules) of the flag they've hoisted.

If we have a Feb-like skirmish with India and attack Indian territory from the carrier - did the attack come from Pakistan or China?
China will unlikely allow us to run attacks from their ships when they're not at war with India directly.

Though the amount of crapped pants across the border after hearing this probably makes it worth it.

Point taken,

But let's see this from another dimension , reverse the roles, because of this same reason, maybe it seems childish but
Consider AC is assigned the role of Protecting shipping lanes and EEZ ( including Chinese interest as well ) , now if it is attacked , who was attacked ? Pakistan or China ?
 

Counter-Errorist

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Don’t Underestimate China’s Flying Shark
The evolution of the J-15 Into a world leading carrier-based fighter and its implications.

Since their entry into service in 2012 onboard China’s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, the J-15 Flying Shark twin engine air superiority fighter has been frequently criticized for its highly limited capabilities. The fighter’s heavy weight combined with the lack of either steam or electromagnetic catapult systems (EMALS) onboard the Liaoning meant that the J-15 was seriously restricted in its fuel carriage and weapons payload — resulting in a missile arsenal a fraction the size of those deployed by U.S. Navy’s jets and a negligible combat radius around the carrier. The aircraft’s lack of advanced radar evading capabilities, at a time when the U.S. and British navies were preparing to induct their first carrier based stealth fighters — the F-35B and C variants — gave further grounds to criticize the J-15’s potential. Perhaps most significantly, however, the three accidents involving J-15 fighters in their first half decade of service were cited by many analysts as proof that China was far from capable of becoming a major carrier power for the foreseeable future — at least not until the Flying Shark could be replaced by a lighter and more reliable fighter.

Despite the considerable criticism the Flying Shark has weathered and the underwhelming capabilities of the jets currently in service onboard the Liaoning, a deeper analysis of the airframe’s full potential — particularly when deployed from more modern carriers currently under construction — indicates that the Chinese jet could well emerge as one of the world’s foremost carrier-based fighters in the near future.

The J-15 was developed as a carrier-based variant of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) J-11B air superiority fighter, and its airframe and role are almost identical to those of the Russian Su-33 carrier-based jets, which entered service in the 1990s — themselves developed as carrier variants of the Su-27. Indeed, access to a prototype Su-33 acquired from Ukraine was critical to allowing the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation to develop the J-15 from the land-based airframe. The Su-33, much like the J-15, is poorly suited to operations from carriers of the Kuznetsov class, which lack catapult launch systems – that class includes both the Liaoning and Russia’s own sole carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov. The Russian naval fighter thus faces many of the same payload and fuel restrictions, and largely as a result of this was operated from longer airstrips on land for over 90 percent of its sorties during recent combat operations in Syria. The Su-33, however, was never initially conceptualized to be operated from such carriers, and was intended to primarily operate from the decks of the Soviet Ulyanovsk class supercarriers — gargantuan warships comparable to the U.S. Nimitz class, which would have been equipped with steam catapults. When operating from such vessels, the Su-33 would have provided the Soviet (and later Russian) Navy with an analogue to the U.S. F-14 Tomcat — a lethal twin engine heavy fighter capable of dominating the skies and contesting air superiority at sea.

The J-15’s airframe, like that of the Su-33, has extremely high potential when operating from a more suitable carrier. It is important to take into account the Liaoning’s nature primarily as a training carrier, and as a result the role of J-15 fighters currently in service is to provide the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) with its first experience operating carrier-based combat jets. Future warships such as the Type 003 however, currently under construction, will have far larger decks capable of launching multiple aircraft simultaneously and, most critically, will field electromagnetic catapult systems allowing the J-15 to launch will a full fuel tank and missile payload. Flying Sharks have been observed by satellite for a number of years already testing land-based runways simulating carrier conditions with EMALS, a force multiplier for the fighter’s capabilities. This could very likely make the J-15 the most heavily armed and longest ranged carrier-based fighter in the world — with an operational altitude approximately 4 kilometers higher than the U.S. Navy’s far lighter F-18E and F-35 carrier-based jets and a significantly higher speed and longer range.

While the J-15 has been criticized as being too heavy to operate from carrier decks, on larger carriers equipped with EMALS systems this will not be an issue. Indeed, the F-14 Tomcat operated by the U.S. Navy was considerably heavier despite relying on a less powerful steam catapult system — and was still considered one of the most successful carrier-based fighters ever developed. Furthermore, with the Tomcat retired in the aftermath of the USSR’s collapse (largely due to its massive operational costs and maintenance requirements), the U.S. Navy lacks an air superiority fighter of its own — seriously undermining the service’s ability to engage a near peer carrier strike group at sea with their own air superiority jets. As Bob Kress and Rear Admiral Paul Gillcrist, USN (Ret.) noted in 2002 regarding the Tomcat’s retirement and the less impressive performance of its lighter replacement, the F-18E:
Though it’s a whizzy little airshow performer with a nice, modern cockpit, it has only 36 percent of the F-14’s payload/range capability. The F-18E Super Hornet has been improved but still has, at best, 50 percent of the F-14’s capability to deliver a fixed number of bombs (in pounds) on target. This naturally means that the carrier radius of influence drops to 50 percent of what it would have been with the same number of F-14s. As a result, the area of influence (not radius) drops to 23 percent!
The tremendous advantage of operating a heavier and higher end fighter, which the military no longer perceived a need for with an apparent end to great power competition, could well soon be a factor in China’s favor once the J-15 is deployed from the decks of upcoming EMALS equipped carriers.

Regarding claims that the J-15 is unreliable due to the number of accidents it has suffered, it is important to recognize both that China has no experience whatsoever operating carrier-based fighters — making some accidents inevitable — and that carrier-based fighters fielded by other states have had accidents as frequently if not more so in their first years in service. One key example is the F-14, which saw a phenomenal number of losses to crashes, approaching 40 jets in its first half decade of service alone. Of the 712 carrier-based Tomcats produced, over 160 were lost to accidents, and 28 percent of all accidents were attributed to issues with the engine. Judged by the standards of China’s J-15, the F-14 would be considered a failure many times over, but it went on to become one of the most successful jets of the Cold War and a key component in ensuring undisputed American blue water primacy until the Soviet Union’s collapse. The J-15’s potential thus cannot be dismissed as a result of its safety record, which all things considered is rather low.

What about the J-15’s ability to contend with rival fighters at sea and its apparent lack of sophistication relative to the latest combat jets fielded by the U.S. Navy? Considering the significant enhancements that have been made to the design of its land-based counterpart the J-11B since 2012 to develop the J-16 and J-11D “fourth generation-plus” fighters, it is very likely that future J-15 variants will be equipped with similar enhancements to their airframes. Some of these upgrades may well be based on the technologies of the Russian Su-35, an advanced derivative of the Su-27 recently acquired by the PLAAF, including three dimensional thrust vectoring capabilities and a radar cross section reducing airframe. Further upgrades currently planned for the J-11D, include radar absorbent coatings, an AESA radar, and the ability to deploy PL-15 ramjet powered air-to-air missiles, which retain a considerable advantage in range over their U.S. analogue, the AIM-120C. These technologies have all been integrated on the lighter J-10 fighter airframe, leading to the elite J-10C’s entry into service in April 2018. A J-15 airframe fielding these same capabilities is likely to be complete by the time more capable carriers are fully assembled in the early 2020s.

A specialized electronic warfare variant of the J-15 is also confirmed to be under development to complement the capabilities of conventional variants. With these enhancements applied to the already formidable air superiority airframe, and with the fighter able to take off with a full payload using an electromagnetic launch system, the J-15 could well emerge as a world leading carrier-based fighter — one which will give more urgency to calls for the U.S. Navy to quickly acquire a new carrier-based air superiority fighter of its own.

Abraham Ait is a military analyst and expert on Asia-Pacific security. He is the founder of Military Watch Magazine.
 

Counter-Errorist

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Point taken,

But let's see this from another dimension , reverse the roles, because of this same reason, maybe it seems childish but
Consider AC is assigned the role of Protecting shipping lanes and EEZ ( including Chinese interest as well ) , now if it is attacked , who was attacked ? Pakistan or China ?

They're not the same.

India gets attacked by PAF jets and pilots. The only tricky part is that they launched from a Chinese Carrier.
When the Chinese Carrier gets attacked, China is attacked, regardless of the payload it carriers.
 
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