Pakistan Gets F16 -Blk70/72

[!eon]

Bhai why JH-7 now China is offering H-6 for export, literally 10-12 jet integrated it with 700km Babur missile and if possible we should try to modify our Abdali missile for air launch version with active radar seeker, this will give us a local alternative to imported CM-400 AKG but with much greater range and each H-6 would be capable to carry six such missiles.

This combination of platform and weapon package would play such a horrific role against Indian Navy fleet in open sea and against coastal defence installation of India that it would almost eliminate the need for any ship in destroyers category for PN for considerable time, it will increase our lethal reach of air power in sea warfare at least till horn of Africa in the south and till Kochi in the east which is HQ of Indian Navy southern command

H-6 (Chinese modified Soviet Tu-16 Badger) are modernized cold war era design strategic long range bombers. The downside being an unrealistic 450+ mph speed and extremely large RCS. Such platforms require the support paraphernalia that only a country with major military might and economics can muster. It would need longer ranged munitions to stay clear of the enemy's AD range, as it lacks the shoot and scoot capability.

@Khafee please shed some light on this. A huge aircraft flying close to ocean surface and effect of earth's curvature on large RCS.

 

[HRK]

Which long range cruise missiles / hypersonic missiles does Pakistan have to be used with this platform?
Also what will be the range of the missiles?

As mention earlier currently Babur is the longest range cruise missile with 700km range with antiship capability already exist with it, we will have to make compatible for air launch purpose, which I think would not be difficult because of our experience with RA'AD air launch missile

Secondly we will have to adopt either existing ballistic missile with active seeker for air launch anti ship role or would have develop/ accquir a new one

For the former option I think our Abdali missile system which we have retired could form the base for our air launch anti ship ballistic missile with active seeker this will give us homegrown capabilities analogous to CM-400 AKG

For new system we may find 2 option work able from China (CM-302 and HD-1) and 1 from South Africa (LRTM) but this may fall under MRTC restricted system so we have to develop their "indigenous" version for increased range but any of the project related to these will take mid to long term time, therefore I would recommend to utilize and adopt existing Abdali system in short run for utilization

 

[HRK]

@Khafee please shed some light on this. A huge aircraft flying close to ocean surface and effect of earth's curvature on large RCS.

Such huge aircraft don't fly close to ocean surface

 

[!eon]

Such huge aircraft don't fly close to ocean surface

With modified wings it can I think.

 

[HRK]

With modified wings it can I think.

Well honestly I don't know but if it could then this type of low level flight will reduce the combat radius and flight speed so would take the two benefits of this system out therefore I believe it will kill the purpose of the induction of this system make them practically inefficient to operate

 

[AliYusuf]

As mention earlier currently Babur is the longest range cruise missile with 700km range with antiship capability already exist with it, we will have to make compatible for air launch purpose, which I think would not be difficult because of our experience with RA'AD air launch missile

Secondly we will have to adopt either existing ballistic missile with active seeker for air launch anti ship role or would have develop/ accquir a new one

For the former option I think our Abdali missile system which we have retired could form the base for our air launch anti ship ballistic missile with active seeker this will give us homegrown capabilities analogous to CM-400 AKG

For new system we may find 2 option work able from China (CM-302 and HD-1) and 1 from South Africa (LRTM) but this may fall under MRTC restricted system so we have to develop their "indigenous" version for increased range but any of the project related to this will take mid to long term time, therefore I would not would recommende to utilize and adopt existing Abdali system in short run

From what I can surmise to what you are stating ... much needs to be done from the current ... to do what @Mastankhan Sahib & @Khafee Sahib have been discussing.

From that aspect, the recently upgraded JH-7A with advanced avionics seems a relatively readier option and much less costly.

But I guess the best platform would be the under consideration J-15 hands down. It can carry the punch, has the range (also can re-fueled in air) and has the capability to fight it's way out of a tight situation.

 

[!eon]

Well honestly I don't know but if it could then this type of low level flight will reduce the combat radius and flight speed so would take the two benefits of this system out therefore I believe it will kill the purpose of the induction of this system make them practically inefficient to operate

My question is actually off topic. May be I have written too short.
I am taking concept from Ekranoplan. If so huge body can be lifted with winging effect, then it can further be modified for a bit higher level.
I know no such thing exists, but my question is about RCS. Will it be then important ?
@Khafee

 

[Fafnir]

With modified wings it can I think.

No, it'd have to be a purpose designed ground-effect craft. It's not just the wings, but the engines and airframe that give them lift and allow them to fly so low over open waters. They aren't aircraft though, and can't generally fly at altitude. the Russian Lun class ekranoplan for instance only had a service ceiling of 5 meters. Any higher and the craft wouldn't generate sufficient lift and would crash. The "Ground-effect" only works upwards of 150 meters off the water. Any higher and you're subject to traditional aerodynamic principles. The Caspian Sea Monster was designed to fly at 3 meters, but was more efficient when flying at 20 meters.

Only one was built, but it was very well armed with 6 P-270 Moskit supersonic anti-ship missiles. These are the precursor the now infamous Brahmos missile. While the Lun's service life was limited, the A-90 class ground-effect vehicle served with the Russian Armed Forces for upwards of 20 years, with the last being retired in 1993. They could actually fly at 3000 meters, but could only take advantage of the ground effect when "on the deck".

They were unarmed transports, but ground-effect designs have shown an ability to carry weaponry. They require relatively calm waters though and have limited use on the open sea.

Iran's Bavar 2 is a classic Class A ground-effect vehicle, looking more like a flying boat then an aircraft. They're armed, but just barely. For suicide attacks.

 

[Khafee]

My question is actually off topic. May be I have written too short.
I am taking concept from Ekranoplan. If so huge body can be lifted with winging effect, then it can further be modified for a bit higher level.
I know no such thing exists, but my question is about RCS. Will it be then important ?
@Khafee

The J16 is already sporting RAM coatings, these can be applied as well. But the issue is it is sub sonic.

 

[AliYusuf]

No, it'd have to be a purpose designed ground-effect craft. It's not just the wings, but the engines and airframe that give them lift and allow them to fly so low over open waters. They aren't aircraft though, and can't fly at altitude. the Russian Lun class ekranoplan for instance only had a service ceiling of 5 meters. Any higher and the craft wouldn't generate sufficient lift and would crash. The "Ground-effect" only works upwards of 6 meters off the water. Any higher and you're subject to traditional aerodynamic principles.

Only one was built, but it was very well armed with 6 P-270 Moskit supersonic anti-ship missiles. These are the precursor the now infamous Brahmos missile. While the Lun's service life was limited, the A-90 class ground-effect vehicle served with the Russian Armed Forces for upwards of 20 years, with the last being retired in 1993.

They were unarmed transports, but ground-effect designs have shown an ability to carry weaponry. They require relatively calm waters though and have limited use on the open sea.

What a monstrosity. Looks like a techno-horror machine.
Don't no if it worked or not, but, it looks quite dangerous.

 

[!eon]

The "Ground-effect" only works upwards of 150 meters off the water.

That's exactly I wanted to know. How important is RCS at 150m - 200m height.

 

[AliYusuf]

The J16 is already sporting RAM coatings, these can be applied as well. But the issue is it is sub sonic.

Can't really predict how much of the RCS can be reduced of such a huge structure like this.

 

[Khafee]

Can't really predict how much of the RCS can be reduced of such a huge structure like this.

In all honesty its cruise speed doesnt instill a lot of confidence for this kind of OP.

 

[TomCat]

That's exactly I wanted to know. How important is RCS at 150m - 200m height.

It depends on some other factors including, the adversary AD radar, it’s altitude limits, the higher the altitude, weaker the emitted waves get due to disturbances / energy lost / deflected particles. RCS matters more at lower level according to my hypothesis as compared to higher altitudes. However, at lower levels, especially above sea, moisture level is very high, evaporation, many small water vapours are saturated near the sirface, radar waves get deflected, refracted, get weaker when they cross mediums repeatedly such as air to water then air then again water. But as you mentioned, 150-200, this range is neither too low neither high, this is where RCS matters the most. Also range / distance matters

 

[Wolf-PK]

I said this on other fourm I will also say this here ….. If PAF want F-16s then , PAF have to end US monopoly on her , And how can PAF do that , First double down work on JF-17 block III , 2020 production line , and announce JF-17 NG , 2nd and most important buy one decent medium or heavy category bird with AESA Radar , birds like J-10 . J-15 , J-16 , SU-35 , EFT ……
The day USA see F-16s are not important for PAF (unfortunately 27th Feb prove US how important F-16s are for us) and USA lost her monopoly / control over PAF they will sell us F-16s with all the latest goodies , they even offer us F-35s to keep us (PAF) in USA camp …..
So if PAF want F-16s and F-35 in future , bring in JF-17 B-III as quick is possible , announce JF-17 NG , buy one new bird with AESA radar (J-10 , J-15 , J-16 , SU-35 , EFT)...

Great point.......only announcement will do the half work...but again this matter is being controlled by officials who are heavily obsessed with FSola...they fear any new system will challenge their credibility and acumen ...so they are in a habit of rejecting other platforms