Pakistan to buy 36 latest Su-35's - WDF Exclusive!

[Khafee]

PAF only has 2 Friends left in the world sir. No1 are the Chinese 2nd are the Turks. Rest all have shown their Backs to PAF in General and Pakistan in particular. The Arabs have been deeply scarred by our reaction to their Yemen Fiasco. It’s a damage beyond repair. Project Financing on 15-20 years term is doable especially by Chinese or Polish EXIM banks. But the peeps here work/believe that the Acquisition can only be done when you have hard cash lined up. The mindset/machinery in the AHQ(Plans/Finance/Paltforms Divisions & Ministry of Finance) needs a major overhaul. Arabs won’t EVER be bankrolling our acquisitions EVER. PERIOD. All this Fan Boys Talk of KSA/UAE/QATAR buying PAF this and that NEEDS to END here now. We are on our own sails.

27th Feb engagement says otherwise. the turks were no where to be seen. BUT you carry on.

 

[PewPew]

Asghar Khan and Noor khan were visionary leaders.

Yep the Mirage III/5 and F-6 were frozen post-1965 / pre-1971. If not for China's Cultural Revolution, the F-6 could have instead been the MiG-21-based F-7, but Chinese internal issues set their J-7 program by many years. The PAF also took a look at both the MiG-21 and Su-7, but pressure on Moscow by India shut those doors; one need only imagine the force we would've had with Mirage III/5 and F-7/MiG-21s in 1971...

Still, to the PAF's credit, we have 100+ Gripen-class fighters in the JF-17, with 78 (plus possibly another 50) Gripen E/F-lite class AESA radar-equipped fighters joining them via the Block-3. Now we just need to spruce up the medium-weight (F-16) fleet and add a heavyweight for a real offensive edge, and leave walling Pakistan off to the JF-17s.

 

[Khafee]

I'd say use the money meant for Su-35 (definitely not US funding) for the Typhoon or J-10CE. It's a choice between 2 different paradigms: With the Typhoon, it's about tight interoperability with the F-16s and creating a cohesive offensive punch (with JF-17B/Block-3 for lobbing SOW/ALCMs). With J-10CE, it's -- as @Mastankhan explored -- about building numbers and a sizable strike-capable force. Either way, unless the Russians are basically throwing in the baby with the kitchen sink, it'd be better to stick to with the Chinese or go European.

You my friend are playing with our emotions. Euro then Chinese seems to be in the works.

 

[PewPew]

You my friend are playing with our emotions. Euro then Chinese seems to be in the works.

In my opinion, I'd rather the PAF go for 18 Typhoon T3. I do think there's more value in interoperating with the F-16 fleet and creating an offensive air-to-air capability. Yes, it'd be at the cost of deep-strike, but we can compensate there by tailoring the JF-17s for SOW and ALCMs, and also by adding a lot more GLCM launchers (with longer-ranged Babur variants). Plus, the GCC is flying the Typhoon in force, so we have a nearby source for spare parts and, potentially, additional aircraft some years down the line.

The Typhoon T3 has a higher upfront cost, but the Consortium brought the maintenance end down to near F-16 levels. The Consortium is also more open to third-party weapons integration since that's literally what the Typhoon is a result of -- e.g., KEPD 350 and Storm Shadow are redundant, but because of multiple needs, they both work on it. So, Ra'ad and H2/H4 integration is a non-issue.

Finally, I can't see why Europe would deny giving T1s on very favourable terms if there's a T3 contract tied to it. So, there's an opportunity to add even more offensive air fighters (in addition to T3s and additional F-16s) via ex-Italian and ex-Spanish T1s. If we have $4.5 b in cash (either our own or from the GCC), then I'd much rather it go to the Europeans than the Russians.


I did a cost breakdown 2 years ago:

The following is a very rough set of estimations (from open source info) regarding the cost of acquiring and maintaining the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3.​

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After some difficult snags through the development of the underwhelming Tranche 1, which included the absence of long-range strike capabilities and wildly high operating costs, the Eurofighter Consortium (BAE, Airbus DS, Airbus CASA and Leonardo) have been bringing matters down to earth.​

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In 2015, BAE announced that it had slashed the cost of manufacturing the Typhoon (i.e. late T2 and early T3) by 20%. In fact, it cost the British exchequer around $126 m to produce each new RAF Typhoon.​

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In 2016, BAE initiated the TyTAN (i.e. Typhoon Total Availability eNnterprise) 10-year support contract for RAF Typhoons. It is worth $3.04 billion, ostensibly for 107 Typhoon T2 and T3. That averages to about $2.84 m per year per fighter, which is quite low considering what we've been accustomed to hearing about the Typhoon.​

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Since these are specifically BAE's numbers, I assume these are the costs of the actual parts, and not the labour and fuel (which would come from the RAF).​

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It's still quite low though, but fear not, it was intended. The TyTAN program envisaged bringing the cost of supporting the Typhoon T2/T3 to the "equivalent of a F-16."​

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Based on the US State Dept. release regarding Pakistan's F-16 request, the all-in cost of acquisition and support for each F-16 is $87 m. If the flyaway cost of each F-16 is $40 m, then the support cost per fighter would be $4.7 m (10 years) to $9.4 m (5 years) per year.​

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If we looked at the Rafale, it will cost India $11.79 m a year for each Rafale for 5 years.​

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Let's say it costs $8 m a year to fly a Typhoon T3. Over a 10-year period that would be $80 m. Add that to the flyaway cost and you're looking at a contract of $205 m a fighter with a 10-year support contract.​

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Throw in weapons, such as the MBDA Meteor, IRIS-T, SCALP, etc, and the cost will probably climb to $230 million a fighter.​

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This in the ballpark of the Super Hornet, Silent Eagle and Rafale. The Gripen is much cheaper, touching a ceiling of $150 m all-inclusive.​

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I'd wager the Su-35's operating costs will probably be around $9-10 million per year. However, it has a much lower flyaway cost of $83 million per fighter. That said, your main concern wouldn't be in affording the planes up front, but in flying them 20 years down the line - it'd be costlier to fly than Western jets.​

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On the other hand, this should also drive home how much cheaper the JF-17 is than each of those alternatives. It cost a certain customer $560 m plus spare parts to buy 16 JF-17s! That is $35 million per jet. Even on a 5-year cycle, that is an insane bargain, especially since it costs like $45 m to buy and fly a turboprop Super Tucano!!​

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Links:​

https://www.flightglobal.com/…/uk-to-drive-down-typhoon-op…/​

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/BAE-slashes-cost-of-making-Typ…​

https://www.defensenews.com/…/india-inks-deal-with-france-…/​

http://www.thehindu.com/…/India-France-…/article14995775.ece​

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Finally, it'd have the bluster of 1965. The Typhoon T3s would be like the F-104s, and the F-16s like the F-86. The only difference is that this time the PAF has another 200+ JF-17s behind them to distribute sorties, ensure air power availability, and hammer ground targets at a much more frequent rate.

 

[Mastankhan]

Hi,

The minimum number of any aircraft to be inducted other than the JF 17 has to be at least 50+50=100 two batches---.

Our numbers have to be such that we can fight a 30 day war---no more 18 or 26 aircraft---.

 

[Khafee]

Biased Yes. But much closer to reality.

Not at all. 27th Feb proved that.

 

[Ark-Angel]

Not at all. 27th Feb proved that.

Only Spares Support was provided by the Turks along with A Major Support from the Chinese. The Arabs had been a disappointment sir. This is coming from the Horses Mouth itself.

 

[Khafee]

Only Spares Support was provided by the Turks along with A Major Support from the Chinese. The Arabs had been a disappointment sir. This is coming from the Horses Mouth itself.

Seems you have been talking to donkeys.

The turks didn't provide anything except lip service, as usual. On the contrary the IAF actually showed what the Arabs delivered.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Seems you have been talking to donkeys.

The turks didn't provide anything except lip service, as usual. On the contrary the IAF actually showed what the Arabs delivered.

Do you mean this danda?

 

[Khafee]

Do you mean this danda?

View attachment 9776

This is only tip of the iceberg, but unfortunately this is the only thing unclassified, yet clueless fanboys are oblivious to it.

 

[maxpane]

Do you mean this danda?

View attachment 9776

whats in the pic which a guy is showing

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

This is only tip of the iceberg, but unfortunately this is the only thing unclassified, yet clueless fanboys are oblivious to it.

True that, brother!

Luckily, we have a deep, strategic relationship and in my opinion it needs to broaden further... branch out into other fields as well.... the comined industrial base of KSA-UAE-Pakistan can be tranformational if employed with strategic thinking and clear future planning... keeping in mind the emerging scenario.

@maxpane my dear Pak, this is piece of missile... courtesy our friends from UAE!

 

[maxpane]

True that, brother!

Luckily, we have a deep, strategic relationship and in my opinion it needs to broaden further... branch out into other fields as well.... the comined industrial base of KSA-UAE-Pakistan can be tranformational if employed with strategic thinking and clear future planning... keeping in mind the emerging scenario.

@maxpane my dear Pak, this is piece of missile... courtesy our friends from UAE!

thank you sir and thanks to UAE guys who always helps us

 

[Ark-Angel]

Seems you have been talking to donkeys.

The turks didn't provide anything except lip service, as usual. On the contrary the IAF actually showed what the Arabs delivered.

Sir I don’t talk. I watch.
No offence Sir but the danda being displayed is ours not of any other origin. I would like to believe what your saying but the Sit on ground at 270400 Hrs at Operational base is contrary to what you claim. We have no dearth of AMRAAMs at our disposal. Neither is it a secret.

 

[Khafee]

Sir I don’t talk. I watch.
No offence Sir but the danda being displayed is ours not of any other origin. I would like to believe what your saying but the Sit on ground at 270400 Hrs at Operational base is contrary to what you claim. We have no dearth of AMRAAMs at our disposal. Neither is it a secret.

The whole world has traced the serial numbers, but you insist on being clueless, pls continue.