Pakistan to buy 36 latest Su-35's - WDF Exclusive! | Page 36 | World Defense

Pakistan to buy 36 latest Su-35's - WDF Exclusive!

mtime7

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The US Air Force trains out in Nevada with various air defense systems, including S-300, they have spoofing, decoys, jamming, surveillance capabilities that can be all brought to bear on an integrated air defense system, and they practice it regularly, and with all that, I think it would be questioned whether they could take down a system of S-400s. In the end, the Air Force would probably need to overwhelm them, which you can do if you have enough missiles. But you have to question what capabilities are the Chinese going to give you against their own air defense systems.
 
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J-15D has the same capabilities of a "Growler" as the J-16D. It's a new electronic warfare variant of the upgraded J-15B, that made it's first flight this year. It needs to be seen how well it's SEAD/DEAD capabilities fare against the S-400 Triumf system.
Yes I saw the news about J15D variant...which is what I'm referring to in my post. As for how well it performs against the S400...IMO it should be able to counter it.

I'm saying that based on the fact that China operates S400...has been using it for a while now. Additionally China is aware of India getting S400. So China would try and glean all the info it can from the S400(including its radar) not only to further its own SAM systems but also to build an effective counter to be able to counter Indian S400.
 
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The US Air Force trains out in Nevada with various air defense systems, including S-300, they have spoofing, decoys, jamming, surveillance capabilities that can be all brought to bear on an integrated air defense system, and they practice it regularly, and with all that, I think it would be questioned whether they could take down a system of S-400s. In the end, the Air Force would probably need to overwhelm them, which you can do if you have enough missiles. But you have to question what capabilities are the Chinese going to give you against their own air defense systems.
Nobody is saying that it is not to be questioned...this is why militaries around the world EVALUATE any system before purchasing it. My question is why do u doubt the Chinese don't have the capability to build an effective counter?

Just like how US practices against the S300. China can practice against it's own S300 and S400...and tweak it until they have an effective counter.
 
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mtime7

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Nobody is saying that it is not to be questioned...this is why militaries around the world EVALUATE any system before purchasing it. My question is why do u doubt the Chinese don't have the capability to build an effective counter?

Just like how US practices against the S300. China can practice against it's own S300 and S400...and tweak it until they have an effective counter.
In general, countries leave out certain capabilities from export, especially to defeat their own air defense system, it's not that they think Pakistan will use it against them, but it could fall into say American hands
 
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In general, countries leave out certain capabilities from export, especially to defeat their own air defense system, it's not that they think Pakistan will use it against them, but it could fall into say American hands
Generally yes they do. However there are certain exceptions...very few though. For US that exception is generally Israel. US has given Israel certain things that it has denied other countries...even allies. For China...Pak is somewhat like that. This is mainly bcuz Pak provides a second front against India, which from a strategic viewpoint is a great advantage against any enemy. An India that doesn't have to worry about Pak...and can focus all it's economic might and manpower(armed well from the latest and greatest western tech) would be a dangerous foe against China. So generally China finds it a better option to arm Pakistan as well as it can. China has a history of providing Pak with its weapons and I don't think J15D in Pak hands would be objectionable to China.

Besides...if Pak can't take on the Indian S400 with J15D(as in if China is to provide a watered down version)...why would Pak buy it then? That would just be a stupid expense...that does nothing to add to Pak's capabilities. If Pak is to go for J15D...somewhere secretly...Pak will train against the Chinese S400.
 

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Generally yes they do. However there are certain exceptions...very few though. For US that exception is generally Israel. US has given Israel certain things that it has denied other countries...even allies. For China...Pak is somewhat like that. This is mainly bcuz Pak provides a second front against India, which from a strategic viewpoint is a great advantage against any enemy. An India that doesn't have to worry about Pak...and can focus all it's economic might and manpower(armed well from the latest and greatest western tech) would be a dangerous foe against China. So generally China finds it a better option to arm Pakistan as well as it can. China has a history of providing Pak with its weapons and I don't think J15D in Pak hands would be objectionable to China.

Besides...if Pak can't take on the Indian S400 with J15D(as in if China is to provide a watered down version)...why would Pak buy it then? That would just be a stupid expense...that does nothing to add to Pak's capabilities. If Pak is to go for J15D...somewhere secretly...Pak will train against the Chinese S400.
They will buy, what they will sell them, and for secretly training against the S-400, I doubt it, again any information gleaned about Chinese air defenses, I doubt it.
 
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They will buy, what they will sell them, and for secretly training against the S-400, I doubt it, again any information gleaned about Chinese air defenses, I doubt it.
What? That makes no sense...why would any country buy what doesn't fulfill their needs? If for whatever reason J15D doesn't fulfill Pak's needs...Pak WILL NOT buy it PERIOD.

Ur doubts are unfounded based on no evidence. Pak with its limited budget(that puts huge constraints on R&D) has been able to "develop" certain key technologies that only "rich"(big economies) countries usually have the means to develop.

- How much do u think it costs to build ballistic missiles...add to it the cost of developing both liquid and solid propellant based missiles(Ghauri and Shaheen series). The latest addition to that still "under development" is MIRV tech.
- How much does it cost to develop cruise missiles from scratch? Pak has ALCM(Raad) and several variants of Babur, which includes submarine launched version. Then there's also Zarb and Harba. Developing cruise missiles and all those variants requires deep pockets or lots of help from those that already have that tech.
- No doubt Pak's nuclear weapons program along with the tech to enrich weapon's grade fissile material also got help from China.

The above are just some of the key technologies that China has helped Pak with. No country helps another with nuclear and missile tech. Of course neither of them would officially accept to this bcuz of the repercussions...but does it not make u wonder how Pak almost always runs SUCCESSFUL tests whether it's to test the SLCM version of Babur or MIRV capable Ababeel or anything else? Pak doesn't have that oil wealth...nor does it have a huge amount of scientists/engineers/etc nor a developed industrial base like the western countries. If Pak was to do all this alone without Chinese help...Pak would've ended up with lots of Tejas, Rustom, Arjun like examples.

If China can help Pak with such strategically important stuff(like nukes and missile tech) decades back...then a J15D that can counter S400 shouldn't be a big issue. Moreover there has never been an issue from Pak's side...of any info being leaked to US or any other country for that matter.

Based on the above I'm inclined to believe that China will not hold back on providing Pak with the means to counter the S400. S400 is among one of the best air defense systems around rn. If it is deployed in India in key positions(near the border) against Pak...it can pose a great risk to PAF...
...a compromised PAF(operating in a dangerous SAM protected environment) against an IAF that's massive in numbers(with added Rafales)...would give a huge advantage to Indian military...something that Pak may not be able to overturn or recover from. China wouldn't want that...China would want Pak to have the capability to keep India busy and at bay.
 
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mtime7

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And you believe the J15D can defeat the S-400? Let me guess, PAF scientist are working hand in hand with the Chinese, day and night to develop a way to defeat the Chinese Air Defense system, so they can export this technology to defeat their own air defense system to the PAF... That is a lot to wrap my head around
 
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And you believe the J15D can defeat the S-400? Let me guess, PAF scientist are working hand in hand with the Chinese, day and night to develop a way to defeat the Chinese Air Defense system, so they can export this technology to defeat their own air defense system to the PAF... That is a lot to wrap my head around
Ur argument is based on speculation alone...I'm basing mine on the knowledge that...
- Pakistan has NEVER leaked info on Chinese capabilities.
- China has helped Pakistan with things far more important than J15D.

There are only two reasons China would keep this tech away from Pak...one is that if there's a chance it will be used against China by Pak...and second is that info might leak to China's enemies.

As for China being afraid to handover Pak a platform that can defeat its air defenses...why would China be afraid of that? Pak is NEVER going to use it against China. If that was a concern China would've never helped Pak with its nuclear weapons program or missiles development, which would pose a far greater threat. So we can safely rule out China being concerned about Pak using J15D against China.

The second concern could be info being leaked...that is pure speculation on ur part and there's no basis for that argument. It has NEVER happened...EVER.
 

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Ur argument is based on speculation alone...I'm basing mine on the knowledge that...
- Pakistan has NEVER leaked info on Chinese capabilities.
- China has helped Pakistan with things far more important than J15D.

There are only two reasons China would keep this tech away from Pak...one is that if there's a chance it will be used against China by Pak...and second is that info might leak to China's enemies.

As for China being afraid to handover Pak a platform that can defeat its air defenses...why would China be afraid of that? Pak is NEVER going to use it against China. If that was a concern China would've never helped Pak with its nuclear weapons program or missiles development, which would pose a far greater threat. So we can safely rule out China being concerned about Pak using J15D against China.

The second concern could be info being leaked...that is pure speculation on ur part and there's no basis for that argument. It has NEVER happened...EVER.
Pakistan has never leaked info on Chinese capabilities? How do you know, how do you know whether the CIA has an asset in the PAF, because I would bet it wouldn't be one of the most difficult things for the CIA to do? You seem to be very certain about a lot of things, you have no way of being certain about... That uncertainty is exactly why you don't share that kind of technology or information.
 
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You seem to be very certain about a lot of things, you have know way of being certain about...
U r right I have no way of being certain about it...just like u don't have a way of being certain about it either. Or is that where ur brain makes a U turn? And suddenly what applies to me doesn't apply to u? Look at what u r saying below(and ur original argument) with such certainty..as if u run the CIA.
Pakistan has never leaked info on Chinese capabilities? How do you know
I can ask u the same...how do u know that Pak has indeed leaked info?

im basing my opinion on the fact that China continues to sell Pak its military equipment...be it radars, naval assets, submarines, fighter jets, etc. If there were leaks that were detrimental to Chinese national security they would've stopped.

This means either there are no leaks or if there are neither Pak nor China know about it...in which case if China doesn't think that there's a leak(despite it being there) they will still continue to sell military equipment(including the J15D).
how do you know whether the CIA has an asset in the PAF
Again I can ask u how do u know for certain that they do have an asset? Oh right u don't...u r just speculating.
because I would bet it wouldn't be one of the most difficult things for the CIA to do?
And u know that? Care to provide me with a source rather than pulling things out of ur behind?

Do u have anything concrete? Or at the very least can u draw ur conclusions based on past trends? Or is it just more opinions and speculations that u have to offer?
 

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U r right I have no way of being certain about it...just like u don't have a way of being certain about it either. Or is that where ur brain makes a U turn? And suddenly what applies to me doesn't apply to u? Look at what u r saying below(and ur original argument) with such certainty..as if u run the CIA.

I can ask u the same...how do u know that Pak has indeed leaked info?

im basing my opinion on the fact that China continues to sell Pak its military equipment...be it radars, naval assets, submarines, fighter jets, etc. If there were leaks that were detrimental to Chinese national security they would've stopped.

This means either there are no leaks or if there are neither Pak nor China know about it...in which case if China doesn't think that there's a leak(despite it being there) they will still continue to sell military equipment(including the J15D).

Again I can ask u how do u know for certain that they do have an asset? Oh right u don't...u r just speculating.

And u know that? Care to provide me with a source rather than pulling things out of ur behind?

Do u have anything concrete? Or at the very least can u draw ur conclusions based on past trends? Or is it just more opinions and speculations that u have to offer?
Listen, I am not certain, as the Chinese would not be certain, not like you who is certain that technology to defeat Chinese air defenses would be safe to give PAF. I am done with this, you can't seem to have a logical conversation and have become very defensive, (unlike the Chinese).. lol

I will bow, "There is no corruption in Pakistan"
 
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Listen, I am not certain, as the Chinese would not be certain, not like you who is certain that technology to defeat Chinese air defenses would be safe to give PAF. I am done with this, you can't seem to have a logical conversation and have become very defensive, (unlike the Chinese).. lol
What's so defensive? Do u not know how to debate? No wonder u r done with this bcuz u have no argument other than ur opinions and speculations.

- All I have said is based on past trends between the two countries where they have cooperated on defense related things far more strategically important than J15D.
--> so why would they not sell it all of a sudden?
- Secondly they continue to cooperate in that manner...as in China is continually selling its military assets to Pak.
--> they don't seem to be concerned that there could be a leak in Pak military feeding US info on Chinese tech

Can u provide me some past example or trend for ur opinions? Or u gonna just run away and invent some excuse that I'm being defensive?

Edited my reply to ur edited reply
I will bow, "There is no corruption in Pakistan"
Ok and this proves that China won't sell J15D? Corruption has existed since Pakistan was created...and yet China sold Pak it's weaponry and still continues to sell it. But u want me to believe that this one time corruption(and therefore the threat of having a double agent who will sell secrets for money) is going to be such a huge issue? Just this one time? What happened to all the other times when China did covertly and overtly gave Pak its tech?
 
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