Pakistan to buy 36 latest Su-35's - WDF Exclusive! | Page 35 | World Defense

Pakistan to buy 36 latest Su-35's - WDF Exclusive!

mtime7

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Problems with Liaoning does't mean you stop production of your air asset, you need lots of them, several squadrons for each carrier for rotation. What does China have, 1 squadron I think?
 

AliYusuf

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Problems with Liaoning does't mean you stop production of your air asset, you need lots of them, several squadrons for each carrier for rotation. What does China have, 1 squadron I think?
It does mean that because that is the only air craft carrier in the Chinese fleet. Like @Mastankhan Sahib has explained that China perhaps needed to take a step back rectify the kinks in their systems and then move forward in the right direction. They had developed everything at a frenzied pace. Maybe they needed to step back and take account of the situation. Carriers number 2 (in trials) and 3 are most probably getting full complements of 36 upgraded J-15s each. Their carrier based stealth platforms may be a couple years off from IOC if not more. China cannot wait that long.
 

mtime7

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It does mean that because that is the only air craft carrier in the Chinese fleet. Like @Mastankhan Sahib has explained that China perhaps needed to take a step back rectify the kinks in their systems and then move forward in the right direction. They had developed everything at a frenzied pace. Maybe they needed to step back and take account of the situation. Carriers number 2 (in trials) and 3 are most probably getting full complements of 36 upgraded J-15s each. Their carrier based stealth platforms may be a couple years off from IOC if not more. China cannot wait that long.
I think they went back to the drawing board for sure, and if the reports are true from Chinese media, they are going for a different design
 

mtime7

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possibly.. Here is another story that is mostly speculation, but I think they are going for stealth

China Looks To Replace Its J-15 Carrier Fighter Jets Amid Reports Of Crashes
The People's Liberation Army Navy will need significantly more jets anyway if it wants to make good use of their new carriers.
BY JOSEPH TREVITHICKJULY 5, 2018
IMAGINECHINA VIA AP IMAGES
SHARE



China is reportedly working on a replacement for the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s J-15 carrier-based fighter jet. This news comes amid revelations that the aircraft are increasingly accident prone and the Chinese already need to significantly expand their carrier aviation fleets to keep pace with plans to build new flattops.
The South China Morning Post confirmed that China’s Navy, also known as the PLAN, was searching for a new carrier fighter on July 4, 2018. Though Chinese officials say that a new type is in development, there was no information on whether this would be a variant of an existing aircraft, either produced domestically or acquired abroad, or a clean-sheet design, or when it might enter service.




NEW FLIGHT OPS VIDEO FROM CHINA'S CARRIER FEATURES LOADED UP J-15 FIGHTERSBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
CHINA’S HIGHLY EVOLVED FC-31 STEALTH FIGHTER MAKES ITS FIRST FLIGHTBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
INDIAN NAVY MIG-29KS MAKE LOW APPROACHES TO USS NIMITZ DURING "MALABAR" DRILLSBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
MOTHERSHIP'S DAY: CHINA'S NEW CARRIER SETS SAIL, FRENCH FLY FROM USS GEORGE H.W. BUSHBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
IF YOU STILL DON'T THINK CHINA'S NAVY IS A SERIOUS THREAT, WATCH THIS VIDEOBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
Lieutenant General Zhang Honghe, deputy head of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force, or PLAAF, acknowledged the project was in progress, according to the South China Morning Post, but declined to give any specifics. The existing J-15 is a derivative of the Soviet-era Su-33 Flanker-D and first flew in 2009. The Su-33's basic design, however, traces back to the 1980s.

The J-15 forms the core of the carrier air wing on board China’s first aircraft carrier, the Type 001 Liaoning, which itself entered service in 2012. The PLAN’s first domestically produced carrier, known presently simply as the Type 001A, started its sea trials in May 2018. A third "Type 002" ship is reportedly under construction and China has plans for at least four carriers in the coming years, each one of which will need an air wing. That's not counting any additional aircraft it might need to create a steady pipeline of pilots to go along with those jets.






While there are no official details about what the J-15’s successor will look like, there are a number of possibilities. One option would be to simply improve upon the existing aircraft. In addition to the single-seat fighters, Shenyang Aircraft Corporation has made a limited number of J-15S trainers, which may now serve as testbeds for further improved designs.
In May 2018, pictures emerged of a what some have referred to as a J-15D or J-17, a two-seat variant with what appeared to be electronic warfare jamming pods on the wingtips. This could be an important addition to Chinese carrier air wings, regardless of the main type of aircraft it is flying.

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https://twitter.com/AhmAdTipu7/status/1006303427994046465

Meet Electronic Warfare version of J15D, now called J-17.
Dedicated EW Fighters are new breed of combat aviation which is born in parrael dimension of 'stealth fighters'.
Pakistan in longer run might use Jf17b for this role.
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In a similar vein, the PLAN could look to acquire a navalized variant of the more modern J-16, which China reportedly derived in part from the more modern Su-30MKK Flanker-G, or a version of that latter jet straight from Russia. The PLAAF operates both Su-30MKKs and J-16s already from land bases. It also began receiving even more advanced Su-35 Flanker-Es from Russia in January 2018.
Still, the PLAN’s experiences with the J-15 could make them disinclined to go with another Flanker derivative. If nothing else, these aircraft are heavy, with an empty weight of 38,600 pounds. This makes them one of the heaviest carrier-borne fighter jets, ever.



DMITRIY PICHUGIN VIA WIKIMEDIA
A PLAAF Su-30MKK Flanker-G.
On top of that, the Liaoning and the future Type 001A are both Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR) types that use ski-jumps to help the aircraft get airborne. Even so, the planes have to fly with reduced weapons and fuel loads to be light enough to get off the deck safely.
In addition, “the J-15 is a problematic aircraft – its unstable flight control system was the key factor behind the two fatal accidents two years ago,” an unnamed Chinese military source told the South China Morning Post. The individual was referring to a pair of crashes in April 2016, including one mishap in which the pilot, Zhang Chao, died. The other pilot, Cao Xianjian, survived, but suffered serious injuries.






“But the aviation experts at first refused to acknowledge that the J-15 has design problems,” another one of the South China Morning Post's sources said. “They only agreed there were problems after Cao encountered the same trouble.”
The incidents left the J-15s grounded for three months. The South China Morning Post reported that the relatively small fleet of jets – Shenyang only ever produced approximately 20 in total – has seen at least four crashes, even though state authorities have only admitted two so far.
The incidents in 2016 came as the PLAN pushed to declare the Liaoning combat ready. In August 2017, the engine on another one of the fighters caught fire after an apparent bird strike, but this did not prompt a fleet-wide grounding.



IMAGINECHINA VIA AP IMAGES
Nine J-15s, which could be nearly half the total number ever produced, on board the Liaoning.
It’s not clear if the reported flight control system issues would necessarily persist with the more advanced Su-30MKK or J-16, either. It is worth noting, however, that in 2010, the Russians themselves began purchasing the lighter MiG-29K Fulcrum as the replacements for their own aging Su-33s on their carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov.
The Indian Navy also went this route for their STOBAR carrier INS Vikramaditya, though they are reportedly less than pleased with the performance of these aircraft, as well. Among the factors that played into that decision was the outdated avionics on the Su-33s.
It is possible that the PLAN could acquire a number of MiG-29Ks, or variants thereof, at least as an interim option. It could then decide to either craft a copy of this type or develop a new domestic carrier fighter for future carriers. It might be difficult for the Chinese to clone the Fulcrum, or at least do so quickly, as they have never operated the type.






A small purchase of an existing type, or one that would require minimum development, might make even more sense since the Type 002 carrier, as well as other future Chinese flattops, will reportedly have a Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) configuration. This will significantly change the weight and performance requirements for the planes flying off those ships, which will open up new possibilities for what kind of aircraft they can accommodate and could change the calculus for the PLAN as it outlines the structure of their air wings.
It could also provide the additional time necessary to complete development of a fifth generation carrier fighter design. Speculation has persisted for some time that Shenyang could be developing its FC-31 medium-weight stealth jet(also referred to as the J-31) as a carrier fighter. The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the country’s state-run aviation conglomerate, has said it could have a production-ready model by 2019.



AP
The FC-31 prototype as it existed in 2014. One prototype has since received significant updates.
However, AVIC has long insisted that the aircraft is primarily for export and that it is looking for a foreign buyer to help finance the completion of the plane’s development. With two prototypes of the design already, the latest of which is substantially more advanced than the first, a derivative of FC-31 could easily turn out to be an attractive option for the PLAN.
If Shenyang could develop a version that is suitable for STOBAR operations, as well, it could also complement or replace any fighter jets China buys in the meantime for the Liaoning and the future Type 001A carrier. There is also the distinct possibility that the PLAN is looking to supplement these manned aircraft with stealthy unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAV) on the Type 002 and any further CATOBAR carriers, too.

See Defense News 360's other Tweets



Whatever courses of action China chooses, it will have to make those decisions sooner rather than later, if it hasn’t already. The PLAN is expanding at an aggressive rate and is expecting to commission its third carrier by 2023. Those ships won’t be particularly useful without any aircraft to go on them.
And, to be fair, the loss of four aircraft is significant, but it isn't a major surprise. To be fair to China, carrier aviation operations are extremely complex and challenging and require significant training and regular drills to maintain competency. The U.S. Navy has experienced its own share of mishaps, and the Russians dumped two jets in the water during its sole carrier's most recent cruise. China's aircraft carrier aviation program is still so young, and there is so much to learn in general.
China has gone on a propaganda blitz that seems aimed, at least in part, in presenting a positive picture of things as they stand now. Earlier in 2018, it awarded Zhang, the pilot who died, the title of “best party member,” a significant accolade. State-run CCTV also aired a special on Cao, who will be among the People’s Liberation Army’s representatives at the Communist Party’s congress in October 2018, another major honor.
Cao and his comrades are probably hopeful that this high profile attention will translate into getting newer, more capable planes and quickly.
 

AliYusuf

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possibly.. Here is another story that is mostly speculation, but I think they are going for stealth

China Looks To Replace Its J-15 Carrier Fighter Jets Amid Reports Of Crashes
The People's Liberation Army Navy will need significantly more jets anyway if it wants to make good use of their new carriers.
BY JOSEPH TREVITHICKJULY 5, 2018
IMAGINECHINA VIA AP IMAGES
SHARE



China is reportedly working on a replacement for the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s J-15 carrier-based fighter jet. This news comes amid revelations that the aircraft are increasingly accident prone and the Chinese already need to significantly expand their carrier aviation fleets to keep pace with plans to build new flattops.
The South China Morning Post confirmed that China’s Navy, also known as the PLAN, was searching for a new carrier fighter on July 4, 2018. Though Chinese officials say that a new type is in development, there was no information on whether this would be a variant of an existing aircraft, either produced domestically or acquired abroad, or a clean-sheet design, or when it might enter service.




NEW FLIGHT OPS VIDEO FROM CHINA'S CARRIER FEATURES LOADED UP J-15 FIGHTERSBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
CHINA’S HIGHLY EVOLVED FC-31 STEALTH FIGHTER MAKES ITS FIRST FLIGHTBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
INDIAN NAVY MIG-29KS MAKE LOW APPROACHES TO USS NIMITZ DURING "MALABAR" DRILLSBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
MOTHERSHIP'S DAY: CHINA'S NEW CARRIER SETS SAIL, FRENCH FLY FROM USS GEORGE H.W. BUSHBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
IF YOU STILL DON'T THINK CHINA'S NAVY IS A SERIOUS THREAT, WATCH THIS VIDEOBy Tyler RogowayPosted in THE WAR ZONE
Lieutenant General Zhang Honghe, deputy head of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force, or PLAAF, acknowledged the project was in progress, according to the South China Morning Post, but declined to give any specifics. The existing J-15 is a derivative of the Soviet-era Su-33 Flanker-D and first flew in 2009. The Su-33's basic design, however, traces back to the 1980s.

The J-15 forms the core of the carrier air wing on board China’s first aircraft carrier, the Type 001 Liaoning, which itself entered service in 2012. The PLAN’s first domestically produced carrier, known presently simply as the Type 001A, started its sea trials in May 2018. A third "Type 002" ship is reportedly under construction and China has plans for at least four carriers in the coming years, each one of which will need an air wing. That's not counting any additional aircraft it might need to create a steady pipeline of pilots to go along with those jets.






While there are no official details about what the J-15’s successor will look like, there are a number of possibilities. One option would be to simply improve upon the existing aircraft. In addition to the single-seat fighters, Shenyang Aircraft Corporation has made a limited number of J-15S trainers, which may now serve as testbeds for further improved designs.
In May 2018, pictures emerged of a what some have referred to as a J-15D or J-17, a two-seat variant with what appeared to be electronic warfare jamming pods on the wingtips. This could be an important addition to Chinese carrier air wings, regardless of the main type of aircraft it is flying.

26 people are talking about this


In a similar vein, the PLAN could look to acquire a navalized variant of the more modern J-16, which China reportedly derived in part from the more modern Su-30MKK Flanker-G, or a version of that latter jet straight from Russia. The PLAAF operates both Su-30MKKs and J-16s already from land bases. It also began receiving even more advanced Su-35 Flanker-Es from Russia in January 2018.
Still, the PLAN’s experiences with the J-15 could make them disinclined to go with another Flanker derivative. If nothing else, these aircraft are heavy, with an empty weight of 38,600 pounds. This makes them one of the heaviest carrier-borne fighter jets, ever.



DMITRIY PICHUGIN VIA WIKIMEDIA
A PLAAF Su-30MKK Flanker-G.
On top of that, the Liaoning and the future Type 001A are both Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR) types that use ski-jumps to help the aircraft get airborne. Even so, the planes have to fly with reduced weapons and fuel loads to be light enough to get off the deck safely.
In addition, “the J-15 is a problematic aircraft – its unstable flight control system was the key factor behind the two fatal accidents two years ago,” an unnamed Chinese military source told the South China Morning Post. The individual was referring to a pair of crashes in April 2016, including one mishap in which the pilot, Zhang Chao, died. The other pilot, Cao Xianjian, survived, but suffered serious injuries.






“But the aviation experts at first refused to acknowledge that the J-15 has design problems,” another one of the South China Morning Post's sources said. “They only agreed there were problems after Cao encountered the same trouble.”
The incidents left the J-15s grounded for three months. The South China Morning Post reported that the relatively small fleet of jets – Shenyang only ever produced approximately 20 in total – has seen at least four crashes, even though state authorities have only admitted two so far.
The incidents in 2016 came as the PLAN pushed to declare the Liaoning combat ready. In August 2017, the engine on another one of the fighters caught fire after an apparent bird strike, but this did not prompt a fleet-wide grounding.



IMAGINECHINA VIA AP IMAGES
Nine J-15s, which could be nearly half the total number ever produced, on board the Liaoning.
It’s not clear if the reported flight control system issues would necessarily persist with the more advanced Su-30MKK or J-16, either. It is worth noting, however, that in 2010, the Russians themselves began purchasing the lighter MiG-29K Fulcrum as the replacements for their own aging Su-33s on their carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov.
The Indian Navy also went this route for their STOBAR carrier INS Vikramaditya, though they are reportedly less than pleased with the performance of these aircraft, as well. Among the factors that played into that decision was the outdated avionics on the Su-33s.
It is possible that the PLAN could acquire a number of MiG-29Ks, or variants thereof, at least as an interim option. It could then decide to either craft a copy of this type or develop a new domestic carrier fighter for future carriers. It might be difficult for the Chinese to clone the Fulcrum, or at least do so quickly, as they have never operated the type.






A small purchase of an existing type, or one that would require minimum development, might make even more sense since the Type 002 carrier, as well as other future Chinese flattops, will reportedly have a Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) configuration. This will significantly change the weight and performance requirements for the planes flying off those ships, which will open up new possibilities for what kind of aircraft they can accommodate and could change the calculus for the PLAN as it outlines the structure of their air wings.
It could also provide the additional time necessary to complete development of a fifth generation carrier fighter design. Speculation has persisted for some time that Shenyang could be developing its FC-31 medium-weight stealth jet(also referred to as the J-31) as a carrier fighter. The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the country’s state-run aviation conglomerate, has said it could have a production-ready model by 2019.



AP
The FC-31 prototype as it existed in 2014. One prototype has since received significant updates.
However, AVIC has long insisted that the aircraft is primarily for export and that it is looking for a foreign buyer to help finance the completion of the plane’s development. With two prototypes of the design already, the latest of which is substantially more advanced than the first, a derivative of FC-31 could easily turn out to be an attractive option for the PLAN.
If Shenyang could develop a version that is suitable for STOBAR operations, as well, it could also complement or replace any fighter jets China buys in the meantime for the Liaoning and the future Type 001A carrier. There is also the distinct possibility that the PLAN is looking to supplement these manned aircraft with stealthy unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAV) on the Type 002 and any further CATOBAR carriers, too.

See Defense News 360's other Tweets


Whatever courses of action China chooses, it will have to make those decisions sooner rather than later, if it hasn’t already. The PLAN is expanding at an aggressive rate and is expecting to commission its third carrier by 2023. Those ships won’t be particularly useful without any aircraft to go on them.
And, to be fair, the loss of four aircraft is significant, but it isn't a major surprise. To be fair to China, carrier aviation operations are extremely complex and challenging and require significant training and regular drills to maintain competency. The U.S. Navy has experienced its own share of mishaps, and the Russians dumped two jets in the water during its sole carrier's most recent cruise. China's aircraft carrier aviation program is still so young, and there is so much to learn in general.
China has gone on a propaganda blitz that seems aimed, at least in part, in presenting a positive picture of things as they stand now. Earlier in 2018, it awarded Zhang, the pilot who died, the title of “best party member,” a significant accolade. State-run CCTV also aired a special on Cao, who will be among the People’s Liberation Army’s representatives at the Communist Party’s congress in October 2018, another major honor.
Cao and his comrades are probably hopeful that this high profile attention will translate into getting newer, more capable planes and quickly.
Kindly go thru the three links I added in my previous post. One of them is also from Janes report on J-15D Growler. You do not create new variants of a fighter which you are thinking of sidelining. The re-design you mentioned has already happened.
 
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Stop whining and address the question that I asked.What will China operate from it's 3 carriers if it's getting rid of J15? If you dont know the answer be Humble as your name suggests and just acknowledge the fact.
My humbleness is for intelligent people not illogical egoists. Humbleness is reserved for nice people you bring out the worst in me with your attitude. Do you understand the meaning of whining? Probably not but just keep on bar...g. Go on
By the way look for the answer yourself.
You might be surprised.
 

TomCat

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. Their carrier based stealth platforms may be a couple years off from IOC if not more. China cannot wait that long.
Sir, we haven’t seen even a prototype or even a design let alone IOC in two years. Now I don’t mean to say that it’s not a possibility, China can achieve anything when IT WANTS. I am really curious to know more about this sooner. It would be a NEWS. People are even confused as to what is happening with FC-31 as the v1 design appeared again recently after it’s first appearance which was succeeded by v2 in 2017 but then again v1. Really confusing situation as to what is the approach SAC/PLAAF is taking in this regards. FC-31 v2 has really a good future market potential especially in the middle East. China must try to bring it on or bring something even better. I can’t think of a J-20 naval version but given that J-15 with MTOW 33000kg and 2x powerplants with 132kn thrust each is also a heavy category plane and is used from carrier, J-20 with MTOW around 37000kg with 2x powerplants each generating 180kn thrust can also be utilized from carriers if modified for carrier usage. Lets see what becomes of this. This would be a game changer whatever it will be.
 

AliYusuf

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Sir, we haven’t seen even a prototype or even a design let alone IOC in two years. Now I don’t mean to say that it’s not a possibility, China can achieve anything when IT WANTS. I am really curious to know more about this sooner. It would be a NEWS. People are even confused as to what is happening with FC-31 as the v1 design appeared again recently after it’s first appearance which was succeeded by v2 in 2017 but then again v1. Really confusing situation as to what is the approach SAC/PLAAF is taking in this regards. FC-31 v2 has really a good future market potential especially in the middle East. China must try to bring it on or bring something even better. I can’t think of a J-20 naval version but given that J-15 with MTOW 33000kg and 2x powerplants with 132kn thrust each is also a heavy category plane and is used from carrier, J-20 with MTOW around 37000kg with 2x powerplants each generating 180kn thrust can also be utilized from carriers if modified for carrier usage. Lets see what becomes of this. This would be a game changer whatever it will be.
Let's wait and see. China would want to field it's stealth fighters on it's carriers ASAP. To counter the USN in the South China Seas and the F-35. I think J-20's naval version will be readied first for carrier based operations. J-31 will follow later. The fleet numbers will be maintained by the J-15s in a mix of stealth and 4++ generation capabilities for the coming decades. That is how I am reading it, within my limited understanding, for now.
 
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I totally got it, but the PAF will be getting their own 24 J-15s. That is what @Khafee Sahib shared with us.

Nobody can defend Pakistan the way Pakistani armed forces can and also would want to. Pakistan will never outsource it's defense to someone else. Because Pakistan needs to look after it's own priorities and interests.

Come to think of it,
1) What will be the mission of this relocated Chinese asset?
2) When will this relocation be taking place?
3) What will be fulfilling the current Chinese maritime/naval duties in place of these relocated assets?
IMO these will be newly built aircrafts for Pak. China doesn't yet have an alternative to J15...as in an aircraft capable of taking off of an aircraft carrier. Even if they take an existing design(e.g. J20) and modify it for take off and landing on an aircraft carrier...still it would take a while.

Pak on the other hand has long needed a twin engine aircraft. A heavyweight twin engine can serve as a deep strike platform inland(deep into Indian territory) and at sea. Moreover there already exists the wild weasel type of J15...which makes sense bcuz India is getting S400. So with this one platform Pak can have a counter to S400, give some edge to PN against IN, and they can also be used for deep strikes on Indian land targets. That was some great planning by Pak Military.

Pak's need of these aircrafts is far too great to wait long enough for China to come up with a new aircraft carrier compatible fighter jet. Also in the future I think Pak might go for more of these...it would be pointless for Pak to acquire the few that China operates...and then they get phased out in China.
 
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mtime7

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IMO these will be newly built aircrafts for Pak. China doesn't yet have an alternative to J15...as in an aircraft capable of taking off of an aircraft carrier. Even if they take an existing design(e.g. J20) and modify it for take off and landing on an aircraft carrier...still it would take a while.

Pak on the other hand has long needed a twin engine aircraft. A heavyweight twin engine can serve as a deep strike platform inland(deep into Indian territory) and at sea. Moreover there already exists the wild weasel type of J15...which makes sense bcuz India is getting S400. So with this one platform Pak can have a counter to S400, give some edge to PN against IN, and they can also be used for deep strikes on Indian land targets. That was some great planning by Pak Military IMO...and based on all that above I think these are going to be newly built units.
If India gets the S-400 in numbers, and have properly trained operators, the PAF will have big problems striking anything of value
 
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If India gets the S-400 in numbers, and have properly trained operators, the PAF will have big problems striking anything of value
There is no ultimate weapon. S400 can be countered...if Pak gets Wild Weasel aircrafts based on J15...Pak can carry out SEAD/DEAD operations against the S400.
 

mtime7

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There is no ultimate weapon. S400 can be countered...if Pak gets Wild Weasel aircrafts based on J15...Pak can carry out SEAD/DEAD operations against the S400.
yes, with proper training, support, and weapons. I have my doubts about the training, support, and weapons.
 

AliYusuf

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There is no ultimate weapon. S400 can be countered...if Pak gets Wild Weasel aircrafts based on J15...Pak can carry out SEAD/DEAD operations against the S400.
J-15D has the same capabilities of a "Growler" as the J-16D. It's a new electronic warfare variant of the upgraded J-15B, that made it's first flight this year. It needs to be seen how well it's SEAD/DEAD capabilities fare against the S-400 Triumf system.
 

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