Pakistan to buy 36 latest Su-35's - WDF Exclusive!

[Mastankhan]

Sir you are diverting from your own stance on one side you raise questions and then aggressively push to limits but on other side if some one has different thinking you want to kick him out. This is a voluntary forum with enthusiasts try to keep it same. Please provide hard facts negating the under power engine, weight issues and advanced technologies which are still not in our knowledge instead of snubbing others.

hi,

your position as claimed by you is based on reasonable deductions in previous comments awhile ago.

with weapons of death and destruction, it does not work that way.

Please give one real world example to make your stand.

a6, a7, f8, f14, harrier, all under powered aircraft and all overcame their adversaries.

F86 fighter—-terrible fighter at low altitude but did wonders for paf.

What is under powered—-it is when you give it gas today it surges forward tomorrow.

how good is the engine spool up time for the rd93 engine---engine start to take off and what is its benefit.

what is important is that between the jf 17 and the su30, if both begin to start engine at the same time at chaklala and sri nagar, the jf 17 would start---take off---fly and be in attack mode over srinagar air base even before the su30 takes off.

I have written that line multiple times---. Do you have any understanding of what that means---any comprehension at all---or is it just become a habit of young pakistanis to utter without comprehending---.

In daily drive 0 to 60 is not important. What is important is 45 to 75.

jf17 meets & exceeds the threshold set for it.

what if the spool up time of a more powerful engine is bad to poor, do you understand the significance of that for the jf17—. It wont get airborne in a timely and expeditious manner.

Our geography requires that our aircraft engine have a very short time between engine start and take off and that is what the aircraft provides---.

Now if there is still an issue---then one has to consider offsets---. The offset would be HOBS missile---high off bore sight missile.

Getting behind a plane to launch a WVR missile exposes you to the enemy launching a BVR at you from far---because you are busy targeting the aircraft in front of you and you missed hearing the missile launch warning of the missile coming at you---.

 

[Gripen9]

Couple of things to ponder.
Are we getting new airframes or existing ones as some may have alluded to?

If they are new (I would refer them J-15P) then they can essentially be a combo of J-11,15 & 16. Chinese maybe using J-15 as designation to circumvent any export restrictions Russians may have placed by stating what is being exported is based on the Ukrainian Su-33 prototype they got.

 

[TsAr]

Couple of things to ponder.
Are we getting new airframes or existing ones as some may have alluded to?

If they are new (I would refer them J-15P) then they can essentially be a combo of J-11,15 & 16. Chinese maybe using J-15 as designation to circumvent any export restrictions Russians may have placed by stating what is being exported is based on the Ukrainian Su-33 prototype they got.

These are all speculations, we would only know the truth when the agreement comes to light or when the first jet lands...

 

[Humble Analyst]

Interestingly, Khafee mentioned we will be getting 24 J15s. That's about as many as China has produced. So if we get all the J15s, what does China plan to operate from its carriers indeed? J-20 carrier is not going to be ready soon.

That is true and I hope we don’t get the carrier Pak does not need carrier

 

[Humble Analyst]

So if I am not mistaken, nobody is forcing anyone to join the bandwagon of supporters and start following. Everyone is free to express their own opinion or disagree with others. Counter the views with arguments and then move on. Otherwise things lead to acrimonious exchanges which ruin the value and the purpose of the forum. This is being experienced, quite frequently of late, on PDF.

But that is just my humble opinion.

He had a valid point no need to snub if one does not agree. Calling out what is wrong is important especially if someone is using abusive language

 

[CHI RULES]

He head a valid point no need to snub if one does not agree. Calling out what is wrong is important especially if someone is using abusive language

Sir I appreciate your comments further I am here as the people like MK do search for knowledge though by net and media yet they have time which is unfortunately limited for me. Though I have pretty much observed the PA through out my life till up to 1998 but no shame in confessing that never had interaction with PAF guy apart from one technician involved in JF17 project. So I try to get some info from here and there especially regarding PAF and PN. On the other side my concerns are pretty much real as I am living just 18-20 KM from Indian border, my observation is PAF is in dire need of platforms whether for naval role or A2A encounters along with latest AAMs. The superiority which we have shown in recent past skirmish has been pretty much addressed by our adversary by getting better range new generation AAMs. Though induction of Rafael and to be fully operational may take time yet India is progressing at fast pace i.e by improving availability of SU30 as they have already stockpiled the required spares, meanwhile their Mirage 2000s are pretty much matching to our F16s with superior AAMs. Pak in current scenario must take drastic steps. In the past it shall be suffice to say that all Chinese platforms inducted by PAF were upgraded/improved significantly to meet PAF requirements.

 

[Wolf-PK]

Yes, Pak needs to speed up decision making process...though it depends on many other factors such as financials as well as political hindrances .... again the threat of another much intense conflict with IAF is real....Indians have been preparing with the assistance of their partners right after 27/2...news of fighter pilots training by Goraz etc is known....recently they have invited Taiwan's F-16s Blk52 for joint exercise with MK2 and MKIs....clearly indicates their intentions...

Just little concern here that we shouldn't be over confident with hope of wonders happening again and again....grab what is available now from China.

MK sb thank you for your post #481.....very informative.

 

[Counter-Errorist]

In daily drive 0 to 60 is not important. What is important is 45 to 75.

Depends on where you're driving. On Karachi's roads, 0-20 is all that matters

 

[AliYusuf]

.recently they have invited Taiwan's F-16s Blk52 for joint exercise with MK2 and MKIs....clearly indicates their intentions...

Their intentions have never been good. They have held exercises with Singapore, Oman, UAE etc. specifically with Block-50s/52s for more than a decade. But it seems all that didn't do much good.

What I suspect is that the simulated missile shots using the ACMI pods in exercises are a far cry from the actual thing i.e. real life ECM + actual missile performance.

Also the general caliber of the IAF personnel was found wanting. On what was at stake back then and what how they planned and executed ... left a lot to be desired ... being a lot more heavily and well equipped air force than the PAF.

There have been rumors of I-Derby ER being inducted by them ... even that does not out perform the AIM-120C-5 nor does the Russian R-77-1 should they have acquired it. Also I am quite sure that the 90s tech Su-30MKI due to it's higher RCS will get seen by the PAF's front line fighters before it sees them.

The true challenge is the Rafale and the Meteor combo and also the Rafale's strike capability.

Let's hope that Block-III + PL-15 fulfills it's promise and hopefully J-15 + PL-15 can perform as is expected to. Also as the Block-70/72 get's inducted by us as @Khafee Sahib has so kindly shared with us ... then we will be really well placed.

 

[AliYusuf]

Their intentions have never been good. They have held exercises with Singapore, Oman, UAE etc. specifically with Block-50s/52s for more than a decade. But it seems all that didn't do much good.

What I suspect is that the simulated missile shots using the ACMI pods in exercises are a far cry from the actual thing i.e. real life ECM + actual missile performance.

Also the general caliber of the IAF personnel was found wanting. On what was at stake back then and what how they planned and executed ... left a lot to be desired ... being a lot more heavily and well equipped air force than the PAF.

There have been rumors of I-Derby ER being inducted by them ... even that does not out perform the AIM-120C-5 nor does the Russian R-77-1 should they have acquired it. Also I am quite sure that the 90s tech Su-30MKI due to it's higher RCS will get seen by the PAF's front line fighters before it sees them.

The true challenge is the Rafale and the Meteor combo and also the Rafale's strike capability.

Let's hope that Block-III + PL-15 fulfills it's promise and hopefully J-15 + PL-15 can perform as is expected to. Also as the Block-70/72 get's inducted by us as @Khafee Sahib has so kindly shared with us ... then we will be really well placed.

As a post script, I would like to add that should somehow the Block-70/72 & J-15 induction do not happen, the Block-III with PL-15 & HMS + PL-10 will do a very good job in countering the Rafale. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Falcon29]

Interesting discussion guys, I'm quietly following it. Please get along well, you are doing a pretty great job overall. This is an up and coming forum so we need all users we can. We don't want it to end up like that other place.

Question though, what are Pakistan's weaknesses(against Indian Air Force) when it comes to air force and what are they looking for to combat these weaknesses?

 

[Wingless]

Assalamoalaikum.
If we follow SIPRI reports, chinese got 48 SU-27 till 1996 or so. Then further 104 between 1998 and 2007.
When recently, the photos of older SU-27s were shared, some chinese members got surprised. From that, I deduce they are interested in replacing them with latest flankers.
Considering their life span of 40-45 years, I think they can still serve us for 12-15 years if upgraded.
Then, gradually, the other airframes can also be acquired inshaAllah when they are retired.

 

[Wingless]

The problem is we cannot directly acquire chinese flankers because of the Russian factor.
Either we acquire older airframes and then upgrade them for ourselves or pay $5-10 million per aircraft to Russia.
Another way can be to take chinese flankers on lease (not purchase) to avoid silent aggreements between china and Russia.
I prefer to take older airframes with an upgradation as stop gap till Project Azm fighter arrives and enters production, around 2035, till which the older airframes can perform well inshaAllah.

 

[Mastankhan]

Hi

If it was so easy to learn from the net---!!!

 

[PewPew]

I'm not sharing any news here, but in my opinion, I still would not discount the Typhoon T3.

Firstly, if the PAF is for whatever reason unable to get additional F-16s from the US, this would free-up funding (outside of CSF/FMF arrears).

Secondly, the T3 can readily inter-operate with the F-16 Block-52/MLU, so we can build a 'high-tech' fighter fleet of ~100 aircraft (especially if we manage to secure the V-upgrade for our existing F-16s).

Thirdly, Leonardo might be amenable to an offset agreement wherein it invests a sizable chunk of the contract into Kamra Aviation City in the form of an extensive D-level MRO facility to support not just the Typhoon (which could include Pakistani plus Kuwaiti, Qatari, Omani, etc planes), but also the domestic AW139 fleet and potentially M346 LIFT, AW101 and/or AW189 should Pakistan go for any of those.

Fourthly, Turkey's interest in the Su-35 and Su-57 likely means it isn't getting what it wants from the Typhoon Consortium, so the prospect of adding used T1s (especially as a bridge until the T3s are ready) is a possibility.

Fifthly, Leonardo could potentially share some critical R&D help for Project Azm, especially in flight control systems, composites manufacturing, etc., if we procure the Typhoon T3.

Based on open source info, a contract for 24 Typhoon T3s would cost $6.6 b USD.

If you spread that across 10 years, your outlay is about $660 m per year.

According to the TyTAN program, it probably costs around $10 m to fly a Typhoon every year (spare parts, maintenance, etc). In other words, if you're operating 24 Typhoons, you're spending $240 m a year on support. These support costs would come out of the PAF's annual budget, not the DGDP's procurement budget. In other words, the procurement outlay is $420 m per year for 10 years.

In other words, the DGDP/PAF need to square $420 m per year to make a Typhoon T3 purchase happen, and if there are no new-build F-16s in the mix, then this is totally doable. However, if you factor in the potential for Leonardo agreeing to offsets, then of that $420 m per year, something like $100 m a year could return to Pakistan in the form of investment in Aviation City (MRO site), R&D support for Project Azm, etc.