Acquisition of J-15 for PAF- Air Superiority & Deep Strike Platfrom

[Signalian]

To simplify - at the base level, you want to protect your shores from the enemy ships and aircraft, and provide top cover to ships along your coast. This is what the JF-17s can do realistically. This is a mission very different from another mission - protecting you SLOCs.

JF-17s being stationed in Karachi is not evidence that Pakistan can protect her SLOCs. It can equally be reasoned (more convincingly actually) that they are protecting Pakistan's coast.

I have mentioned how force multipliers help in that and how other assets of PN are suited to play a role in that too.

 

[Signalian]

Thanks for this - I'm curious how you would cover your SLOCs with the JF-17... would you be so kind as to elaborate. I see you are talking about using air refuelers, how many can be assigned to the naval war and how will you protect them? How many JFTs would be assigned to protect them and at what distance from the coast will you operate the refuelers?

How many JF-17s will be able to carry anti-ship missiles, how far away, and what kind of time on station will they have? Same for a2a loadout - how much time on station? Would also appreciate if you can bring in the number of aircraft India would have to bear down on the JFTs, far from Pak's coastline, in a scenario where India is blocking you SLOCs.

Would love to get your assessment. I personally feel it is beyond what is possible, let alone practically feasible.

Its up to PAF how many Air refuelers it assigns to protect SLOCs which will be defined by PN. Protection can come in various forms, many types of PAF's aircrafts have sea strike and air refueling capability, lets see how PAF decides to employ them for different tasks. 2nd Sqd of JF-17 is already positioned on the coast, lets see if more Block II or Block III are deployed in Karachi or at Bholari. PAF can operate the refuelers at a range required by PN. You know how many AShM JF-17 can carry and the load out for other armament can be decided as per mission sortie. Its easier for IAF and IN to stay near the coast line too. IN will operate Mig-29ks but they are short legged themselves too. Neither IN nor PN gets any decisive edge.

 

[Signalian]

How will you even take care of you SLOCs forget doing anything else? Or has Pakistan resolved to live under an Indian blockade? How will you stop an Indian blockade with JF-17s or the completely undermatched PN surface fleet? A cursory look at the SLOCs on a map will clear things up - I had hoped you would do that exercise I spoke of so we could have a more interesting conversation.

JF-17 is not the only asset that PN will utilise to counter IN blockade. You need to read my post clearly. PN relies on its own combatant elements too with or without air cover.

 

[Signalian]

Yes, but the JF-17 isn't competing with the J-15, they fit different requirements and roles. So the point is moot in comparing customization. And the Azm sadly is still a paper aeroplane whose role and capability is still in a mist. I would have much preferred an Azm in 2026 rather one two decades later. This seems to be a case of overambition and over-confidence on the part of the PAF.

I never talked about competition. You are failing to understand psychology of PAF and how JF-17's induction has changed PAF's perspective in many ways. I now seriously doubt that you merely talk about equipment and weapons, any one can do that, but to understand the force which operates them, you need to go a long way and i am exactly coming from there. Azm might me a paper plane for now, maybe decades away from induction, thats not the point at all, its the amount of freedom that PAF has with Azm to customise, modify, bring up own blocks and upgrade them with own weapons as per will just like JF-17, thats the point, whether it happens in coming year or after 3 decades is immaterial since without JF-17 there would never be an Azm project.

 

[Signalian]

STOVL stands for Short Takeoff Vertical Landing. STOL is Short Takeoff and Landing. VTOL is Vertical takeoff and vertical landing.

STOL and rough field performance is what you need in a decentralized ground basing strategy for fighters / ground attack aircraft.

Regarding why the STOVL requirement was one of the key problem that caused the F-35 problems: https://www.cbc.ca/fifth/blog/extended-interview-pierre-sprey

I know what STOVL/STOL/VTOL means. I have read on STOVL thats why i have been mentioning it regarding PAF, Harrier and F-35 - not just a mere term i randomly picked up from google last week. You need to read my posts clearly as i mentioned before, STOVL is one of the problems, F-35 should have been inducted and then upgraded in further blocks with different technologies, that would have been a better way to induct it.

 

[Signalian]

Hi Signalian, all navalized platforms are built to more corrosion resistant standards. This is standard and has been going on for a long time and in many many naval platforms.

I am not sure about Mirage-V and JF-17 regarding this and for J-15, built with corrosion resistant material but mainly used by PAF for its own Ops rather than PN's, seems strange.

 

[Signalian]

Rafale coming in next month, 4 in total going to land in Ambala on 27th July. Use your imagination jawano, India ko jawab daina ha keh nai

It takes time to induct, train pilots and then fully operationalise an aircraft after learning all the ins and outs of its capabilities in the air as well as in combat. Its not like the aircraft inducted and shows up on the border next day.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Its up to PAF how many Air refuelers it assigns to protect SLOCs which will be defined by PN. Protection can come in various forms, many types of PAF's aircrafts have sea strike and air refueling capability, lets see how PAF decides to employ them for different tasks. 2nd Sqd of JF-17 is already positioned on the coast, lets see if more Block II or Block III are deployed in Karachi or at Bholari. PAF can operate the refuelers at a range required by PN. You know how many AShM JF-17 can carry and the load out for other armament can be decided as per mission sortie. Its easier for IAF and IN to stay near the coast line too. IN will operate Mig-29ks but they are short legged themselves too. Neither IN nor PN gets any decisive edge.
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By many you mean the 4 il-78 which would need fuel to provide fuel to the planes and also be a sitting duck.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Its up to PAF how many Air refuelers it assigns to protect SLOCs which will be defined by PN. Protection can come in various forms, many types of PAF's aircrafts have sea strike and air refueling capability, lets see how PAF decides to employ them for different tasks. 2nd Sqd of JF-17 is already positioned on the coast, lets see if more Block II or Block III are deployed in Karachi or at Bholari. PAF can operate the refuelers at a range required by PN. You know how many AShM JF-17 can carry and the load out for other armament can be decided as per mission sortie. Its easier for IAF and IN to stay near the coast line too. IN will operate Mig-29ks but they are short legged themselves too. Neither IN nor PN gets any decisive edge.

Block 3 is few years away and Jf block 1-2 cant hold it's own against Indian navy's fighters + Su 30mkis


Jf-17 is a watered down J-10, I dont know why you have so much faith in it. Let's call a spade by what it actually is.

No matter how good you make the pilot he will still struggle against a more advanced and capable machine. There will be a time where all his luck and teaching will run out. All he can do is push his faith further back but in the end it will have the same result.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Its up to PAF how many Air refuelers it assigns to protect SLOCs which will be defined by PN. Protection can come in various forms, many types of PAF's aircrafts have sea strike and air refueling capability, lets see how PAF decides to employ them for different tasks. 2nd Sqd of JF-17 is already positioned on the coast, lets see if more Block II or Block III are deployed in Karachi or at Bholari. PAF can operate the refuelers at a range required by PN. You know how many AShM JF-17 can carry and the load out for other armament can be decided as per mission sortie. Its easier for IAF and IN to stay near the coast line too. IN will operate Mig-29ks but they are short legged themselves too. Neither IN nor PN gets any decisive edge.

If our Jefs will fly from the coast what makes you think their Su30s and maybe rafales(coming next month) wont fly from their coasts?

They have made it clearly that they will use it against Pakistan so expect a skirmish with rafales and su30s next month.


Their aircraft carrier will not be coming anywhere close to the battle field it would most likely be su30s coming trough the ocean and Gujarath.

 

[TomCat]

Block 3 is few years away and Jf block 1-2 cant hold it's own against Indian navy's fighters + Su 30mkis


Jf-17 is a watered down J-10, I dont know why you have so much faith in it. Let's call a spade by what it actually is.

No matter how good you make the pilot he will still struggle against a more advanced and capable machine. There will be a time where all his luck and teaching will run out. All he can do is push his faith further back but in the end it will have the same result.

Allah apko hidayat de aur light medium ka farq samjhaye aur op cost ki bhi

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Allah apko hidayat de aur light medium ka farq samjhaye aur op cost ki bhi

Ya which is why I said jefs cant be used for everything

It was just a comparison

 

[TsAr]

It takes time to induct, train pilots and then fully operationalise an aircraft after learning all the ins and outs of its capabilities in the air as well as in combat. Its not like the aircraft inducted and shows up on the border next day.

I agree, same would be true for PAF as well....

 

[Armchair]

I agree, same would be true for PAF as well....

Indians are saying they have trained their pilots in France already and are getting a head start on inducting them. Khafee is saying the same for the J-15s.

 

[TsAr]

Indians are saying they have trained their pilots in France already and are getting a head start on inducting them. Khafee is saying the same for the J-15s.

Off course you get initial training on the aircraft in the parent country, but battlefield doctrine, knowing the inside and outside of the platform takes time and training.